Dressing Sheep in Wolves Clothing (Mod Warning page 35)

[GloryDaze4877]

Yup.. GM of the year, but what does he know. Austin Czarnik will prove to be a far more important signing.

This is why you can’t have a conversation with you.

Nobody said they wanted a team full of Czarnik’s, but your first response when anyone criticizes a signing of a Reaves-type player is to say something about a smaller, more skilled player. The Bruins obviously were ok with letting Czarnik walk because they have enough “skill” players.

I love the Wagner signing and think he will be the guy he was in ANA here, but that doesn’t make the money given to Reaves any less ridiculous. Wagner reportedly signed for two years ($1.25m per) for less than what Reaves will get for one.

I guess if you are Vegas and have the room under the Cap, spend away, but I don’t want the B’s doing that with contracts for McAvoy, Carlo, DeBrusk, Heinen looming.

 

[BruinDust]

This is why you can’t have a conversation with you.

Nobody said they wanted a team full of Czarnik’s, but your first response when anyone criticizes a signing of a Reaves-type player is to say something about a smaller, more skilled player. The Bruins obviously were ok with letting Czarnik walk because they have enough “skill” players.

I love the Wagner signing and think he will be the guy he was in ANA here, but that doesn’t make the money given to Reaves any less ridiculous. Wagner reportedly signed for two years ($1.25m per) for less than what Reaves will get for one.

I guess if you are Vegas and have the room under the Cap, spend away, but I don’t what the B’s doing that with contracts for McAvoy, Carlo, DeBrusk, Heinen looming.

Exactly, Vegas have oodles of cap space now and moving forward, they can afford a luxury like a Ryan Reaves making almost 3 million a year.

For a team that will be up against the salary cap very soon, it would make zero sense to offer Reaves that kind of money.

 

[Fenian24]

So basically if you like analytics than a person has to automatically dislike the Wagner signing?

I liked the Wagner signing, I dont like analytics and feel they have a very limited place in the game and completely undervalue any type of physical play

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

I liked the Wagner signing, I dont like analytics and feel they have a very limited place in the game and completely undervalue any type of physical play

There's plenty room for analytics in hockey, as long as you don't take them as the be-all-end-all. There needs to be a happy medium from both sides. You're just as bad the other way, with how you belittle them.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

If Kuraly and Wagner are 2/3 of the 4th line, would love to see some skill with them to capitalize on the turnovers they should create.

Kuraly-Wagner-Senyshyn

Or maybe

Frederic-Kuraly-Wagner

 

[BruinsFanSince94]

If Kuraly and Wagner are 2/3 of the 4th line, would love to see some skill with them to capitalize on the turnovers they should create.

Kuraly-Wagner-Senyshyn

Or maybe

Frederic-Kuraly-Wagner

Would you put Fitzgerald in the mix for that as well? He's pretty skilled.

 

[BruinDust]

If Kuraly and Wagner are 2/3 of the 4th line, would love to see some skill with them to capitalize on the turnovers they should create.

Kuraly-Wagner-Senyshyn

Or maybe

Frederic-Kuraly-Wagner

Unless he's playing in the middle, they should leave Frederic in the AHL to develop as a center. Big two-way centers are like gold, that's where he needs to be playing IMO, even if he could very well function in the NHL earlier as a LW.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Would you put Fitzgerald in the mix for that as well? He's pretty skilled.

I liked Fitz at Dev Camp, good hands and always around the puck/net, but I didn’t see him in PRO at all this year.

I know there are a few people here that really like him that have seen him in the AHL.

 

[Fenian24]

My argument throughout this thread is there is a place for players like Reaves a constant counter argument is no there isn't and the game isn't played that way anymore, yet Reaves gets a significant deal and Antione Roussel is supposed to be getting more. I wouldn't have paid Reaves what he got but his signing makes the he is worthless argument null and void, as does the Roussel.

I would prefer to have players like Reaves coming through draft and develop but Sweeney is adverse to drafting them. There are still viable options to put on a line with Kuraly and Wagner, hopefully Sweeney realizes the value of these players as other GM's seem to.

 

[RussellmaniaKW]

I liked the Wagner signing, I dont like analytics and feel they have a very limited place in the game and completely undervalue any type of physical play

you should try understanding them before you dismiss them

 

[GloryDaze4877]

My argument throughout this thread is there is a place for players like Reaves a constant counter argument is no there isn't and the game isn't played that way anymore, yet Reaves gets a significant deal and Antione Roussel is supposed to be getting more. I wouldn't have paid Reaves what he got but his signing makes the he is worthless argument null and void, as does the Roussel.

I would prefer to have players like Reaves coming through draft and develop but Sweeney is adverse to drafting them. There are still viable options to put on a line with Kuraly and Wagner, hopefully Sweeney realizes the value of these players as other GM's seem to.

I think Sweeney values those players as much as any GM, but probably thinks the B’s can develop some of those guys without drafting them? Reaves was a 5th round pick, Rinaldo a 6th, Roussel was undrafted.

I think guys like Acciari, Hickman, Cave were guys the B’s hoped would develop into that type of player.

 

[Dr Quincy]

I liked the Wagner signing, I dont like analytics and feel they have a very limited place in the game and completely undervalue any type of physical play

I'm not sure why you think analytics undervalue physical play. They neither value/undervalue physical or unphysical play. They tell us what a specific player contributes when he's on the ice. That's all they try to do. A player who contributes to wins can play any style. A player who is outplayed can be playing any style.

If you want to argue that a physical player has hidden effects that contribute to the team when he's on the ice, i'd say- those wouldn't be hidden. They are there and accounted for.

If you want to argue taht a physical player has hidden effects that contribute to the team when he's NOT on the ice... well "analytics" (or most of the ones I've seen) haven't looked at that and would say that it's pretty hard to do, but the onus would be on the person suggesting that such a hidden effect is there.

 

[Dr Quincy]

My argument throughout this thread is there is a place for players like Reaves a constant counter argument is no there isn't and the game isn't played that way anymore, yet Reaves gets a significant deal and Antione Roussel is supposed to be getting more. I wouldn't have paid Reaves what he got but his signing makes the he is worthless argument null and void, as does the Roussel.

I would prefer to have players like Reaves coming through draft and develop but Sweeney is adverse to drafting them. There are still viable options to put on a line with Kuraly and Wagner, hopefully Sweeney realizes the value of these players as other GM's seem to.

If you want to argue Reaves was a good signing, or is a good player, that's fine. But I personally don't like the argument "Well a good GM signed him so that shows he's good".

That same GM traded Filip Forsberg for Martin Erat. Does that mean we should deal our best F prospect for a month of a middling 35 pt scorer?

Reaves is or isn't a good player independent of his being signed today. JVR just got signed to a huge contract, and he's the exact kinda player you dislike: Big but unphysical. Does this mean that the B's should go out and look for those kinds of players?

 

[Colt.45Orr]

Wagner = Legit Wolf
Schaller = Big, fluffy Sheep


But I'm glad that (rather than coming here to show a little bit of accountability and perhaps even the eating a little bit of crow) the champs are here to discuss the red herring of Reave's contract out West.

 

[Fenian24]

I think Sweeney values those players as much as any GM, but probably thinks the B’s can develop some of those guys without drafting them? Reaves was a 5th round pick, Rinaldo a 6th, Roussel was undrafted.

I think guys like Acciari, Hickman, Cave were guys the B’s hoped would develop into that type of player.

I agree with that, and as I mentioned I would prefer that type of player be drafted and developed. Hickman is really the only one who meets the criteria though. You look at recent drafts they have not used later picks on gritty players with upside, it seems to be a blindspot with Sweeney.

As far as analytics go I am not a fan, I did read about them in a couple early books on them in hockey, but I do not see as effective a collation compared to baseball, where I do see much more upside and use for them.

Maybe it us because i always played hockey and played very little baseball, I just do not see the positive effects of analytics in hockey. Just my opinion

 

[Dr Quincy]

I agree with that, and as I mentioned I would prefer that type of player be drafted and developed. Hickman is really the only one who meets the criteria though. You look at recent drafts they have not used later picks on gritty players with upside, it seems to be a blindspot with Sweeney.

As far as analytics go I am not a fan, I did read about them in a couple early books on them in hockey, but I do not see as effective a collation compared to baseball, where I do see much more upside and use for them.

Maybe it us because i always played hockey and played very little baseball, I just do not see the positive effects of analytics in hockey. Just my opinion

Just something about analytics:

Analytics were very high on Josh Manson, before the general public. He wasn't putting up points or do anything that seemed to stand out via the eye test. I mean, he's big, and he's physical and he can skate, but you didn't hear a ton about him after his 1st or even 2nd full year.

But guys who used possession metrics were noticing that no matter who he played with, over those 2 years consistently... the opposition had less shot attempts with him on the ice and the Ducks had more shot attempts when he was on the ice. So much so, and so consistently, that it couldn't just be a random thing,luck or anything else. The guy absolutely suppresses shots while at the same time in some way helping his team generating them.

The general public caught on eventually, and this year he put up points more than the past, but "analytics" were absolutely the first ones to be pumping his tires.

 

[GloryDaze4877]

Wagner = Legit Wolf
Schaller = Big, fluffy Sheep


But I'm glad that (rather than coming here to show a little bit of accountability and perhaps even the eating a little bit of crow) the champs are here to discuss the red herring of Reave's contract out West.

So, Reaves didn’t get overpaid by at least a $1m per year? Sweeney got Wagner for what a good 4th liner should make.

Like the signing, like the player, like the attitude. If Sweeney had given Wagner Reaves contract, I would be pissed.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

Just a point of interest for the speed and skill brigade. Reports have Ryan Reaves signing a two year deal with Vegas for almost 3 million a year. Guess there must still be a place for players like him, or the guy who built both of this years cup finalists has it wrong and the analytics crew living in moms basement have it right

Oh I like Reaves and the intangibles he brings. There's definitely still a place in hockey for him. But that doesn't change the fact that this was a massively enormous overpayment by the Golden Knights.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

Bump:

Hearing the Bruins have signed Chris Wagner (best hitting forward in the league) to a 2 year deal....


llllllooooookkkkksssss like I wasn't crazy after all for making this thread and saying we needed more grit up front?

Either that, or the Bruins organization got it all wrong with this signing? If that is the case, I'm glad we're wrong together.

Funny, when I read the Bruins signed Wagner, this is exactly the thread I thought of.

 

[Glove Malfunction]

My argument throughout this thread is there is a place for players like Reaves a constant counter argument is no there isn't and the game isn't played that way anymore, yet Reaves gets a significant deal and Antione Roussel is supposed to be getting more. I wouldn't have paid Reaves what he got but his signing makes the he is worthless argument null and void, as does the Roussel.

I would prefer to have players like Reaves coming through draft and develop but Sweeney is adverse to drafting them. There are still viable options to put on a line with Kuraly and Wagner, hopefully Sweeney realizes the value of these players as other GM's seem to.

Literally NO ONE says there is no place for physical play. NO ONE. Yet you continue to make that your strawman argument and the hill you intend to die on. Which is why no one takes you seriously.

 

[Fenway]

Please continue here

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