Dressing Sheep in Wolves Clothing (Mod Warning page 35)

[JOKER 192]

Sheep can, and often do, weigh more than wolves.

Like you just said (and like I have said many times on this board) it is indeed a mentality. When I said earlier in the year that Tim Schaller didn't have the right mentality for his role I was piled up on by the usual schmucks.

If you look at Washington, they went right after Tampa's D on the first shift Ovechkin took a run at a Tampa D 5 seconds in.... I don't think I saw that once the whole series (outside of David Backes).

They have guys with wolf mentality, guys like Ovechkin, Oshie, Tom Wilson, Alex Chiasson, Smith-pelly, Beagle... all those guys finish hits with gusto.
Orpik was lurking in the weeds like an alligator, taking runs at Tampa players -- it was bizarre seeing the same Tampa tough guys pulling the chute coming across the blue-line.
Tampa has some very scrappy guys but Washington has the larger version of them. If I was Tampa I would switch tactics and stay away from anything physical this series and try to play pure speed-skill game.
In the post series interview that he did, John Cooper talked about how the Bruins manhandled Tampa in the regular season and he told the guys they're going to have to up the intensity and push the Bruins around to have a chance to win (that crucial 4-0 game to take 1st). What we saw game after game after game is that there wasn't as mentality or willingness from our (overall) group to push back.... I suspect the regular-season version that we saw of them is as tough as it gets, unlike Tampa Bay's 4th liners, there is no next level for many of our guys to go to. Our Top Line was taking a ton of abuse and was the only line producing, the least the other lines could have done is made life difficult for Tampa but we didn't have the personnel or mentality for that.

Next year I'll take:

Kuraly--Accairi--Reaves

on the 4th line.
Make Kuraly-Accair a PK duo so they get extra minutes. Rotate 13th forward in when Accairi gets his injuries.

Frederic (great pick) is the 3rd line solution, but not ready yet.

This is one of the best posts I have read in a long time.

 

[chizzler]

Not at all. If he turns out to be a big, mean, effective 3rd line C, I would take that all day long at 29. Every now and then you hope to get lucky in the 20s (Pastrnak) but a career, effective player at 29 is great.

Everyone thinks that a first rounder needs to be a 1st line center. If he breaks in to start on the 3rd line, that good. No one said he can’t move up as the years go by or spots become open. Not every kid start on the top 6.

 

[Don Cherry]

Not at all. If he turns out to be a big, mean, effective 3rd line C, I would take that all day long at 29. Every now and then you hope to get lucky in the 20s (Pastrnak) but a career, effective player at 29 is great.

Agreed. Is he already mean? You can't really teach that or talk someone into it. We've had many, many players that we wanted meanness out of but never got.

 

[Don Cherry]

Roussel and Reaves together would be worth the price of admission alone.

Couldn't agree more. Knowing the Sweeney mentality, however, I doubt he would sign either guy even for the league minimum.
I think we might as well forget about having a more physical, 2011-like team with Sweeney calling the shots.

 

[Don Cherry]

Yeah, if Beleskey had been the same player for us that he had been for the Ducks in the playoffs before we got him, he would have been an important factor for us on the 4th line. I don't blame Sweeney for Beleskey at all --he looked GREAT right before we signed him, but we needed a player like him (in the playoffs) that hits to hurt and wear down their D, rather than Tim "going through the motions" Schaller.

Agreed on Schaller. He can simply go away now.

I find it disturbing that our coach saw him as the best option in every single game all year long.

 

[DKH]

Sheep can, and often do, weigh more than wolves.

Like you just said (and like I have said many times on this board) it is indeed a mentality. When I said earlier in the year that Tim Schaller didn't have the right mentality for his role I was piled up on by the usual schmucks.

If you look at Washington, they went right after Tampa's D on the first shift Ovechkin took a run at a Tampa D 5 seconds in.... I don't think I saw that once the whole series (outside of David Backes).

They have guys with wolf mentality, guys like Ovechkin, Oshie, Tom Wilson, Alex Chiasson, Smith-pelly, Beagle... all those guys finish hits with gusto.
Orpik was lurking in the weeds like an alligator, taking runs at Tampa players -- it was bizarre seeing the same Tampa tough guys pulling the chute coming across the blue-line.
Tampa has some very scrappy guys but Washington has the larger version of them. If I was Tampa I would switch tactics and stay away from anything physical this series and try to play pure speed-skill game.
In the post series interview that he did, John Cooper talked about how the Bruins manhandled Tampa in the regular season and he told the guys they're going to have to up the intensity and push the Bruins around to have a chance to win (that crucial 4-0 game to take 1st). What we saw game after game after game is that there wasn't as mentality or willingness from our (overall) group to push back.... I suspect the regular-season version that we saw of them is as tough as it gets, unlike Tampa Bay's 4th liners, there is no next level for many of our guys to go to. Our Top Line was taking a ton of abuse and was the only line producing, the least the other lines could have done is made life difficult for Tampa but we didn't have the personnel or mentality for that.

Next year I'll take:

Kuraly--Accairi--Reaves

on the 4th line.
Make Kuraly-Accair a PK duo so they get extra minutes. Rotate 13th forward in when Accairi gets his injuries.

Frederic (great pick) is the 3rd line solution, but not ready yet.

The great non-team-of-the-ages (those dynasty Montreal, Islanders, Pittsburgh, Edmonton, Detroit teams) were the

Mike Keenan (who I loathe)
Chicago & Flyers teams were put together to skate AND be physical

There bottom 6 was like kitchen draw

It had a little of everything but it had multiple physical players not even fighters just guys like Derek Smith and Jocelyn Lemieux who would be on the D and bury them- they sent a message)

The game has changed but it still welcomes with open arms guys like Smith, Lemieux, Randy McKay, Chris Draper and Darren McCarty)

I agree I think a healthy Acciari can do it - Kuraly is solid

I have a good 10 fight tapes so I would not be upset over Reaves - if they keep it pack dog mentality I actually think Fitzgerald can play that way - he’s super active on forecheck and has the family hockey sense he know where the play is going before the opponent

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

He hits and his 6 fights would have put him, what first or 2nd among Bruins forwards.

Edit...just checked and Beleskey had a whopping 3 fights to lead the forwards.

So 6 fights in an 82 game season is somehow significant?

Roussel was credited with 104 hits this season. Acciari had 154, Kuraly 143, Schaller 132, Backes 137.

So where does this big hitter fit in?

 

[Friar85]

So 6 fights in an 82 game season is somehow significant?

Roussel was credited with 104 hits this season. Acciari had 154, Kuraly 143, Schaller 132, Backes 137.

So where does this big hitter fit in?

I wouldn't bother with the whole facts thing with this crew. These are the guys who loudly proclaimed the Bs as too soft to be competitive all the way up until that Kings game. Yup, these hockey geniuses knew that the Bs were doomed because the Bs had too many NCAA players and preferred sheep like Danton Heinen to a wolf like Tyler Randell. They disappeared for a long time but have resurfaced with the idea that Tampa is somehow a heavy team to fit their narrative. Tampa! Hilarious.

 

[Colt.45Orr]

I wouldn't bother with the whole facts thing with this crew. These are the guys who loudly proclaimed the Bs as too soft to be competitive all the way up until that Kings game. Yup, these hockey geniuses knew that the Bs were doomed because the Bs had too many NCAA players and preferred sheep like Danton Heinen to a wolf like Tyler Randell. They disappeared for a long time but have resurfaced with the idea that Tampa is somehow a heavy team to fit their narrative. Tampa! Hilarious.

I love Heinen (wouldnt have scratched him) so I'm not interested in your straw man arguments, or your attempts to lump 10 different guy's arguments into 1 so that you can easily poke holes in it.
Tampa is not a heavy team --which made it all the more alarming that they ran us over and we couldn' respond to their physical play.

Im not sure you watch the games but do you care to speculate on why that was, or are you just a 1 trick pony heading back to the straw pile?

 

[Friar85]

I love Heinen (wouldnt have scratched him) so I'm not interested in your straw man arguments, or your attempts to lump 10 different guy's arguments into 1 so that you can easily poke holes in it.
Tampa is not a heavy team --which made it all the more alarming that they ran us over and we couldn' respond to their physical play.

Im not sure you watch the games but do you care to speculate on why that was, or are you just a 1 trick pony heading back to the straw pile?

Fair enough. I was a little broad in my critique. I still think it is a relatively accurate reflection of the arguments made by many in here. Do I watch the games? Oh yeah. I've retired from my first career last July and will shortly start my second so I've watched more hockey this year than any human should. I attended two Bs playoff games at TD and one in Tampa. I like this team but it is far from perfect. Why did Tampa beat them? Personally, I think it comes down to the difference between Tampa's top 4 and ours. I love Chara, McQ and Killer but I think the game is speeding up on them. That, and secondary scoring.

And since you called me out, I'd like to share why this thread bugs me. I coached for free and on top of my work weeks for about 20 years. I had the honor of coaching a number of kids who went on to play NCAA DI and DIII hockey. I had some kids who went the junior route. Some of these kids were skill players, some were grinders, some were brawlers. I think it is ridiculous when people decide that some of these kids are sheep. If you really knew what these kids had to fight through in an 80 something game midget season, while going to school and trying to be a normal teenager you would be amazed I think. The expectations are nothing like when I played. I know this is the Internet. Everyone is a tough guy and it exists to denigrate the accomplishments of those more accomplished than us, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

 

[sarge88]

So 6 fights in an 82 game season is somehow significant?

Roussel was credited with 104 hits this season. Acciari had 154, Kuraly 143, Schaller 132, Backes 137.

So where does this big hitter fit in?

The significance of the fights depends on how significant they were at the time.

I’m fine with Kuraly, Schaller is likely gone, Backes isn’t a 4th liner, so they aren’t going to be competing for ice time.

I’d take Roussel 100 times out of 100 over Acciari.

Roussel - Kuraly - ???

As a 4th line is fine with me.

 

[Don Cherry]

Fair enough. I was a little broad in my critique. I still think it is a relatively accurate reflection of the arguments made by many in here. Do I watch the games? Oh yeah. I've retired from my first career last July and will shortly start my second so I've watched more hockey this year than any human should. I attended two Bs playoff games at TD and one in Tampa. I like this team but it is far from perfect. Why did Tampa beat them? Personally, I think it comes down to the difference between Tampa's top 4 and ours. I love Chara, McQ and Killer but I think the game is speeding up on them. That, and secondary scoring.

And since you called me out, I'd like to share why this thread bugs me. I coached for free and on top of my work weeks for about 20 years. I had the honor of coaching a number of kids who went on to play NCAA DI and DIII hockey. I had some kids who went the junior route. Some of these kids were skill players, some were grinders, some were brawlers. I think it is ridiculous when people decide that some of these kids are sheep. If you really knew what these kids had to fight through in an 80 something game midget season, while going to school and trying to be a normal teenager you would be amazed I think. The expectations are nothing like when I played. I know this is the Internet. Everyone is a tough guy and it exists to denigrate the accomplishments of those more accomplished than us, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Hmmm, interesting. Just wondering what league you coached that had some kids who were "brawlers"?

 

[Don Cherry]

The significance of the fights depends on how significant they were at the time.

I’m fine with Kuraly, Schaller is likely gone, Backes isn’t a 4th liner, so they aren’t going to be competing for ice time.

I’d take Roussel 100 times out of 100 over Acciari.

Roussel - Kuraly - ???

As a 4th line is fine with me.

Rousel- Kuraly-Reaves?

 

[Colt.45Orr]

Fair enough. I was a little broad in my critique. I still think it is a relatively accurate reflection of the arguments made by many in here. Do I watch the games? Oh yeah. I've retired from my first career last July and will shortly start my second so I've watched more hockey this year than any human should. I attended two Bs playoff games at TD and one in Tampa. I like this team but it is far from perfect. Why did Tampa beat them? Personally, I think it comes down to the difference between Tampa's top 4 and ours. I love Chara, McQ and Killer but I think the game is speeding up on them. That, and secondary scoring.

And since you called me out, I'd like to share why this thread bugs me. I coached for free and on top of my work weeks for about 20 years. I had the honor of coaching a number of kids who went on to play NCAA DI and DIII hockey. I had some kids who went the junior route. Some of these kids were skill players, some were grinders, some were brawlers. I think it is ridiculous when people decide that some of these kids are sheep. If you really knew what these kids had to fight through in an 80 something game midget season, while going to school and trying to be a normal teenager you would be amazed I think. The expectations are nothing like when I played. I know this is the Internet. Everyone is a tough guy and it exists to denigrate the accomplishments of those more accomplished than us, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

I really like yours response here actually and I appreciate where you're coming from more now.
I do take umbrage with some of your points... or example there is no way that I consider Tim Schaller a "kid" and I feel fully free to criticize him as it comes with the territory and paycheck.

Ive played 80-plus game seasons with preseason and playoffs... have played with guys who are much better than myself and have made the AHL and NHL and European leagues. I played at university level and I know for a fact that there are a wide variety of mentalities and intensity levels within a team, as you know as well as a coach. Not all guys have the same drive intensity and passion... Spooner and Schaller are two guys who stuck out as problems to me in this area. I struggled with it myself as a player... I could be really intense and then struggled to buy in other times. My former Defense partner and good friend made the NHL with skill and I had another friend who was way, way more talented and didn't make it because of back issues but his hockey "heart" was 3x smaller than my other friend.... not a surprise at all as he's a very fun and aloof kind of guy. He's a really good guy and Tim Schaller also seems like a really good guy but he's not the guy I want on a fourth line when i want my team to make it to the next round.
As a fan I am allowed to point out my concerns just as I had concerns with how our fourth line was put together at the start of the year.

Do you not agree that Tampa Bay had guys who were way more intense, willing, and capable of taking the body throughout the entire series with Boston?

 

[sarge88]

I wouldn't bother with the whole facts thing with this crew. These are the guys who loudly proclaimed the Bs as too soft to be competitive all the way up until that Kings game. Yup, these hockey geniuses knew that the Bs were doomed because the Bs had too many NCAA players and preferred sheep like Danton Heinen to a wolf like Tyler Randell. They disappeared for a long time but have resurfaced with the idea that Tampa is somehow a heavy team to fit their narrative. Tampa! Hilarious.

The most interesting part of this whole post is the fact that you point out (correctly) that Tampa isn’t a “heavy” team, yet they pounded the Bruins at every turn.

And that somehow is supposed to disprove the theory that the Bruins weren’t tough enough.

TB was soft.....TB physically manhandled the Bruins.

Therefore the Bruins don’t need to get tougher?

 

[sarge88]

Rousel- Kuraly-Reaves?

That may scare some fans away.

 

[Don Cherry]

That may scare some fans away.

About 3/4 of them would be my guess based on peoples love for soft, non-hitting, non-fighting hockey.

 

[Friar85]

I

Hmmm, interesting. Just wondering what league you coached that had some kids who were "brawlers"?

Thinking about one kid I coached who wasn't a good enough skater to play DI. Wasn't really a good enough student to play DIII either. Went and played in the WHL and wound up as a goon. He had been a dmanwith us, up there he was a 4th line wing who fought constantly. I'd go online and watch the fights and pray he'd survive the season. My son connected with him a few months ago and confirmed he still had all his faculties and loved his time up there. So, he wasn't really a brawler with us but he was a tough, tough kid.

 

[Don Cherry]

I

Thinking about one kid I coached who wasn't a good enough skater to play DI. Wasn't really a good enough student to play DIII either. Went and played in the WHL and wound up as a goon. He had been a dmanwith us, up there he was a 4th line wing who fought constantly. I'd go online and watch the fights and pray he'd survive the season. My son connected with him a few months ago and confirmed he still had all his faculties and loved his time up there. So, he wasn't really a brawler with us but he was a tough, tough kid.

I see, thanks. Interesting that the guy couldn't play at any college level but could play in the WHL. Is he still playing?

 

[Friar85]

I see, thanks. Interesting that the guy couldn't play at any college level but could play in the WHL. Is he still playing?

Had no interest from NCAA. His skating was rough but his grades were worse, could he have snuck onto an Atlantic Hockey roster? Maybe, but couldn't have gotten in. He fit the WHL game better. My son told me he was a bit of a folk hero up there for dropping the mitts so much. I just checked his elite page and his last game was in the W. So, never went any further.

 

[Friar85]

I really like yours response here actually and I appreciate where you're coming from more now.
I do take umbrage with some of your points... or example there is no way that I consider Tim Schaller a "kid" and I feel fully free to criticize him as it comes with the territory and paycheck.

Ive played 80-plus game seasons with preseason and playoffs... have played with guys who are much better than myself and have made the AHL and NHL and European leagues. I played at university level and I know for a fact that there are a wide variety of mentalities and intensity levels within a team, as you know as well as a coach. Not all guys have the same drive intensity and passion... Spooner and Schaller are two guys who stuck out as problems to me in this area. I struggled with it myself as a player... I could be really intense and then struggled to buy in other times. My former Defense partner and good friend made the NHL with skill and I had another friend who was way, way more talented and didn't make it because of back issues but his hockey "heart" was 3x smaller than my other friend.... not a surprise at all as he's a very fun and aloof kind of guy. He's a really good guy and Tim Schaller also seems like a really good guy but he's not the guy I want on a fourth line when i want my team to make it to the next round.
As a fan I am allowed to point out my concerns just as I had concerns with how our fourth line was put together at the start of the year.

Do you not agree that Tampa Bay had guys who were way more intense, willing, and capable of taking the body throughout the entire series with Boston?

I'm hesitant to pin it to that specifically. You've played at high levels, what is it like to play from behind that much, be on the wrong end of every 50-50 call, and just be a half stride behind? I've coached teams that were tough teams but put them on the ice with a faster and more skilled team and they would struggle to look intense and willing. Tampa was the better team, but I am not sure it comes primarily from being tougher. I was really impressed with Hedman and Stralman, not exactly Scott Stevens types. That being said, I'd be happy if we got heavier as a team, I'd come off the couch every time Reaves dropped them, but I'd rather have John Carlson.

 

[Friar85]

I really like yours response here actually and I appreciate where you're coming from more now.
I do take umbrage with some of your points... or example there is no way that I consider Tim Schaller a "kid" and I feel fully free to criticize him as it comes with the territory and paycheck.

Ive played 80-plus game seasons with preseason and playoffs... have played with guys who are much better than myself and have made the AHL and NHL and European leagues. I played at university level and I know for a fact that there are a wide variety of mentalities and intensity levels within a team, as you know as well as a coach. Not all guys have the same drive intensity and passion... Spooner and Schaller are two guys who stuck out as problems to me in this area. I struggled with it myself as a player... I could be really intense and then struggled to buy in other times. My former Defense partner and good friend made the NHL with skill and I had another friend who was way, way more talented and didn't make it because of back issues but his hockey "heart" was 3x smaller than my other friend.... not a surprise at all as he's a very fun and aloof kind of guy. He's a really good guy and Tim Schaller also seems like a really good guy but he's not the guy I want on a fourth line when i want my team to make it to the next round.
As a fan I am allowed to point out my concerns just as I had concerns with how our fourth line was put together at the start of the year.

Do you not agree that Tampa Bay had guys who were way more intense, willing, and capable of taking the body throughout the entire series with Boston?

Oh, and as far as the kid thing you are right, but Schaller is my oldest son's age so he still qualifies as a kid to me.

 

[Fenian24]

About 3/4 of them would be my guess based on peoples love for soft, non-hitting, non-fighting hockey.

And I would be so upset seeing them go....no....wait......yup....sarcasm on my part there.

With two sought after UFA's on that line it may be too expensive so an alternative could be:
Curtis McKenzie-Kuraly-Reaves or highly underrated Max McCormick on RW.

As I write this I just watched Washington run Tampa out of their own building, completely nullifying the Paquette line by out hitting them and doing to them what they did to the Bruins.

Heinen,Donato,Bjork and too a much lesser degree Czarnik may all have a place in Boston individually but not all together. With Bjorks value being low due to injury, Czarnik still not looked at as a top level prospect and Donato possibly having the best upside Heinen may be the best trade option for a similar forward who will hit and fight or a left side D who will hit and can skate. You have Chara who will hit but isnt getting younger and was never fast and Krug and Gryz who are tiny, dont hit but can skate. Something between these extremes as a top 4 or bottom pair D would be helpful.

 

[Colt.45Orr]

Sportsnet crew tonight: "Tampa has not seen a team in the first 2 rounds like Washington. They are big, they skate hard and they finish hits hard and Tampa doesn't know what to do with them".


Wow, I wish the Sportsnet guys were not such biased, fight-loving Neanderthals! Hopefully the regular crew here can quickly jump in and e-mail Sportsnet to point out that the Bruins are indeed all those things as well! How dare they suggest otherwise... to suggest the Bruins could do things (to become a bigger team with guys who want to finish hits harder) you MUST be stuck in the 80s, wanting to see fights 5x a game..... there is no middle-ground here!

 

[Colt.45Orr]

I'm hesitant to pin it to that specifically. You've played at high levels, what is it like to play from behind that much, be on the wrong end of every 50-50 call, and just be a half stride behind? I've coached teams that were tough teams but put them on the ice with a faster and more skilled team and they would struggle to look intense and willing. Tampa was the better team, but I am not sure it comes primarily from being tougher. I was really impressed with Hedman and Stralman, not exactly Scott Stevens types. That being said, I'd be happy if we got heavier as a team, I'd come off the couch every time Reaves dropped them, but I'd rather have John Carlson.

I'd be good with both, sir!

I remember, very clearly, playing against teams that you knew were going to finish hits on you, hard, every chance they got. Maybe I'm soft (very likely) but it wore me down mentally as much as physically.