Draft and Develop

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Fair criticism.

To answer your question though, I think it was because Chevy saw us reaching contender status within the next couple seasons with the current core. If so, we needed to get some of our highly touted rookies into the mix before some of those core guys got too old. The rookies were important both because of their projected ability, as well as for their cost controlled contracts and cap management. So there was some time pressure to get rookies in as part of the team, and some NHL experience.

To fully explain this, I'll have to stray over into a discussion on Chevy and Jets' management. Even though we have a different thread for that, these things interrelate.

No doubt many will want to rip Chevy apart for the "stupidity" of this plan. I ain't gonna stop you. But what I will say is that a few factors in the collapse of the team this year might have been hard to predict. The abysmal PK for one, which has been better in the past. The perhaps less than expected performance of the rookies. Somewhat more arguably, the terrible goaltending before Hellebuyck stepped up (especially Hutch). Then there's Ladd, who was a question mark this season post-surgery.

I'm not saying Chevy expected to see a strong playoff team this year. Rather, that the Jets would show enough promise to build toward contention in the near future with this core. As of now, that looks not to be the case.

So, the bad news is we have a somewhat wasted season. The good news is that Chevy didn't mortgage away the future in any way to make this bet (other than perhaps not making some key trades earlier). And maybe we'll get a good draft pick out of the deal (which might make up for not making those trades earlier, making it an even safer bet).

Sure, we've got things to fix. We've also got some good pieces, some younger vets on good contracts, a potentially elite young goaltender, good prospects, and a **** ton of cap space to work in. I think we can turn around the fortune of this club pretty fast if we (TNSE) plays our cards right.

This is neither a pro-Chevy or anti-Chevy post. I'll save my opinion on that depending on how things unfold in the near future. Rather, it's just an honest look at where I think we stand as a club. And why we're in the situation we are this year.

Back to developing new talent - the only one who looks to have been rushed was Petan. I think Lowry and Copp are probably as far or further along than if they'd stayed in the A. We could argue about Lowry I guess.

But I do look forward to when the Moose are rockin' it, full of talented prospects looking to bust their way into a strong Jets team. Hopefully we're not that far off? If so, due to the competition and lack of open slots in the big club, guys should end up spending more time on the Moose.

I don't at all disagree with your assessment. I disagree with how readily you seem to be to brush off the year as some what wasted. I think it's definitely wasted. We also have a lot of space, I agree. In fact the most cap space. This year didn't have to go into full crap fest... but yet here we are.

At the end of the day, miscalculations are miscalculations.

Chevy miscalculated how ready Petan was
Chevy miscalculated how ready Copp was
Chevy miscalculated how ready Lowry was
Chevy miscalculated how ready Chiarot was
[mod]

This is a lot of miscalculations for a single GM in 5 short off seasons who has yet to get this team to turn the corner. I am not confident in any way shape or form he really understands how to develop our youth and how to build a team. He took a lot of risks and so far it's been one miss after another. Are there positives? Of course. But at the end of the day those positives pale in comparison to the negatives. Our power slide into the toilet year 5 reinforces that.
 
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arby18

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What does the "Develop" part of "Draft & Develop" look like?

[mod]

Who have the Jets themselves actually "developed" in-house? By that, within the Ice Caps/Moose?

Chiarot, Lowry and Hellebuyck come to mind. That's it. One of them just got sent down to the AHL after suffering through a horrific sophomore slump, the other is showing that he was a product of playing next to #BuffNorris and shouldn't be in the lineup daily, and Helly is amazing but he's only here due to an injury to the true Tank Commander.

Scheifele/Trouba/Copp/Ehlers have a combined 10 AHL games between them (Scheifele got into 10 playoff games where he did nothing), but that's because top-10 picks should likely head straight to the show from junior/college. Still, they were developed elsewhere (Barrie, Halifax and Michigan) in different systems by different coaches outside of the Jets organization. Red Berenson likely despises Chevy and the Jets, actually. :laugh:

Morrissey, Petan, Lipon, and the rest are all maybes at this point, because they're currently decent at best AHLers on a horrible team. And I'm very concerned about how the Moose are being run right now, as that dressing room must be as quiet as a morgue on most nights after their most recent butt-kicking. At least when the Ice Caps were winning, they were surrounded by AHL all-stars and quality players. Is teaching them how to lose the development strategy? :sarcasm:

It looks a lot like "Draft and Deploy", with a solid dose of "hope the other coaches in junior and college can develop these players for us".

I'm looking forward to some of the replies to this one already. :popcorn:

EDIT***

Whoops. Didn't see the old thread for "Draft and Develop" pop back up. Mods, could you please move this post over there? Thanks, and sorry for the inconvenience.
 
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KingBogo

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Fair criticism.

To answer your question though, I think it was because Chevy saw us reaching contender status within the next couple seasons with the current core. If so, we needed to get some of our highly touted rookies into the mix before some of those core guys got too old. The rookies were important both because of their projected ability, as well as for their cost controlled contracts and cap management. So there was some time pressure to get rookies in as part of the team, and some NHL experience.

To fully explain this, I'll have to stray over into a discussion on Chevy and Jets' management. Even though we have a different thread for that, these things interrelate.

No doubt many will want to rip Chevy apart for the "stupidity" of this plan. I ain't gonna stop you. But what I will say is that a few factors in the collapse of the team this year might have been hard to predict. The abysmal PK for one, which has been better in the past. The perhaps less than expected performance of the rookies. Somewhat more arguably, the terrible goaltending before Hellebuyck stepped up (especially Hutch). Then there's Ladd, who was a question mark this season post-surgery.

I'm not saying Chevy expected to see a strong playoff team this year. Rather, that the Jets would show enough promise to build toward contention in the near future with this core. As of now, that looks not to be the case.

So, the bad news is we have a somewhat wasted season. The good news is that Chevy didn't mortgage away the future in any way to make this bet (other than perhaps not making some key trades earlier). And maybe we'll get a good draft pick out of the deal (which might make up for not making those trades earlier, making it an even safer bet).

Sure, we've got things to fix. We've also got some good pieces, some younger vets on good contracts, a potentially elite young goaltender, good prospects, and a **** ton of cap space to work in. I think we can turn around the fortune of this club pretty fast if we (TNSE) plays our cards right.

This is neither a pro-Chevy or anti-Chevy post. I'll save my opinion on that depending on how things unfold in the near future. Rather, it's just an honest look at where I think we stand as a club. And why we're in the situation we are this year.

Back to developing new talent - the only one who looks to have been rushed was Petan. I think Lowry and Copp are probably as far or further along than if they'd stayed in the A. We could argue about Lowry I guess.

But I do look forward to when the Moose are rockin' it, full of talented prospects looking to bust their way into a strong Jets team. Hopefully we're not that far off? If so, due to the competition and lack of open slots in the big club, guys should end up spending more time on the Moose.

This is a really good post Puckatron. Well said.
 

Daximus

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Deo Leo, Morrissey, Comrie, Petan, Lipon, Kostalek, Kichton, Kosmachuk and Olsen are all being developed in the Minors as far as I know...
 

Daximus

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If his play doesn't stay close to that level, he might need to go back down again. But I think we need a couple more games to know for sure.

I suppose. I just don't think he should have been called back up so soon. Though the injury to Scheif may have had a hand in that.
 
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KingBogo

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I don't think it is much of a criticism of your development system when a high percentage of your early picks are able to make the jump straight to the NHL from different leagues. Most players will develop 1-4 seasons in leagues other than the AHL. The Moose have many developing prospects, hopefully a few make it.
 

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Deo Leo, Morrissey, Comrie, Petan, Lipon, Kostalek, Kichton, Kosmachuk and Olsen are all being developed in the Minors as far as I know...

I think he meant developed as in, they're solid regular NHL'ers who you dont expect to go back down the AHL anymore.

So far... that list is... well, maybe Connor?
 

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I think he meant developed as in, they're solid regular NHL'ers who you dont expect to go back down the AHL anymore.

So far... that list is... well, maybe Connor?

Well we are obviously actively developing many players. Seeing as how our oldest draft picks from Jets 2.0 are 22 I think it's a bit premature to say we don't draft and develop. It takes time, remember?
 

arby18

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Deo Leo, Morrissey, Comrie, Petan, Lipon, Kostalek, Kichton, Kosmachuk and Olsen are all being developed in the Minors as far as I know...

I think he meant developed as in, they're solid regular NHL'ers who you dont expect to go back down the AHL anymore.

So far... that list is... well, maybe Connor?

Can you define "being developed" though? Does getting their teeth kicked in on the regular make them better in the long run? They're a horrible team that is getting smacked around quite often. It's been noted how quiet that dressing room is after losses.

I'm not sure how getting your clock cleaned is conducive to developing, but if you can fill me in I'm all ears. :)
 

Daximus

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Can you define "being developed" though? Does getting their teeth kicked in on the regular make them better in the long run? They're a horrible team that is getting smacked around quite often. It's been noted how quiet that dressing room is after losses.

I'm not sure how getting your clock cleaned is conducive to developing, but if you can fill me in I'm all ears. :)

So you want us to send down anyone that doesn't need to clear waivers just so the Moose can win some games and the prospects can feel good about themselves?
 

arby18

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So you want us to send down anyone that doesn't need to clear waivers just so the Moose can win some games and the prospects can feel good about themselves?

Quite the strawman.

All I'm trying to figure out is what the "development" part of "D&D" is. Because I can't imagine that the kids are having much fun down on the farm getting toyed with by every other team. I guess they're getting lots of ice-time, so that's good, but are they emotionally ready to get tuned 4 out of every 5 games?

Oh, and trades are allowed in the minors too. Maybe a veteran or two could be acquired for a song to help keep the kids from getting down on themselves. Or not. The current course the Moose are taking looks promising. :sarcasm:
 

KingBogo

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Well we are obviously actively developing many players. Seeing as how our oldest draft picks from Jets 2.0 are 22 I think it's a bit premature to say we don't draft and develop. It takes time, remember?

The Jets 2.0 are well above the average for drafted prospects making the NHL and/or developing well.

2011 - Scheifele, Lowry.
2012 - Touba, Helly.
2013 - Copp (Still likely or possible: Morrisey, Petan, Comrie, Lipon and Kostslek)
2014 - Ehlers (De Leo)
2015 - (Connor, Roslovic way too early to know for sure but some other really nice prospects).

Since we have been picking from the 7-17 hole that seems to be a pretty successful run.
 

Weezeric

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I think he meant developed as in, they're solid regular NHL'ers who you dont expect to go back down the AHL anymore.

So far... that list is... well, maybe Connor?

How long do you expect this "development" to take? The first jets draft class is 22 now, and they're first two picks played top nine center roles on an nhl playoff team as 21 yr olds. What a failure that draft class was!

You can't on one hand say the Jets don't develop their young players and then assume morrisey,petan Etc won't work out. They're brand new pros. They're being developed.

I mean unless Carl klingberg could be a top Liner and the jets ruined him...
 

White Out 403*

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Well we are obviously actively developing many players. Seeing as how our oldest draft picks from Jets 2.0 are 22 I think it's a bit premature to say we don't draft and develop. It takes time, remember?

How long do you expect this "development" to take? The first jets draft class is 22 now, and they're first two picks played top nine center roles on an nhl playoff team as 21 yr olds. What a failure that draft class was!

You can't on one hand say the Jets don't develop their young players and then assume morrisey,petan Etc won't work out. They're brand new pros. They're being developed.

I mean unless Carl klingberg could be a top Liner and the jets ruined him...



It does take time. I was simply answering the question. The question was very simple: who have we developed. Not, who do I think we will develop.
 

Daximus

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Quite the strawman.

All I'm trying to figure out is what the "development" part of "D&D" is. Because I can't imagine that the kids are having much fun down on the farm getting toyed with by every other team. I guess they're getting lots of ice-time, so that's good, but are they emotionally ready to get tuned 4 out of every 5 games?

Oh, and trades are allowed in the minors too. Maybe a veteran or two could be acquired for a song to help keep the kids from getting down on themselves. Or not. The current course the Moose are taking looks promising. :sarcasm:

So your biggest concern is how bad their feelings are being hurt by playing on a bad team?
I wonder if Scheif and Trouba's feelings are hurt playing on a bad Jets team this year. :cry:
 

Weezeric

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It does take time. I was simply answering the question. The question was very simple: who have we developed. Not, who do I think we will develop.

Fair enough. I just don't think its fair to criticize the jets as non developers when some players have progressed faster than is arbitrarily decided in some cases and in other cases says they're busts cuz they're not developing fast enough, if that makes sense
 

arby18

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So your biggest concern is how bad their feelings are being hurt by playing on a bad team?
I wonder if Scheif and Trouba's feelings are hurt playing on a bad Jets team this year. :cry:

Hey, you never know. Maybe the pending-RFA's will hold out this summer because they don't like playing on a bad Jets team. None of us know that. But I figure making 10-15x what the kids on the Moose make might help them get over it a little easier.

But you're dodging the question: what does Development from within the Jets organization look like? The top-10 picks (Scheifele, Trouba and Ehlers) as well as college-boy Copp never played a regular season game in the AHL (55 got some playoff games when his junior season was over). They were developed elsewhere.

Take them away, and it's Chiarot, Lowry and Helly. The first two should likely be down in the AHL right now as it is, and the 3rd guy (who's awesome, BTW) is only here because Pavelec is hurt. The rest of the prospects are getting boot-stomped on the regular in the minors (9 wins in 30 games).
 

Daximus

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Hey, you never know. Maybe the pending-RFA's will hold out this summer because they don't like playing on a bad Jets team. None of us know that. But I figure making 10-15x what the kids on the Moose make might help them get over it a little easier.

But you're dodging the question: what does Development from within the Jets organization look like? The top-10 picks (Scheifele, Trouba and Ehlers) as well as college-boy Copp never played a regular season game in the AHL (55 got some playoff games when his junior season was over). They were developed elsewhere.

Take them away, and it's Chiarot, Lowry and Helly. The first two should likely be down in the AHL right now as it is, and the 3rd guy (who's awesome, BTW) is only here because Pavelec is hurt. The rest of the prospects are getting boot-stomped on the regular in the minors (9 wins in 30 games).

The answer is pretty clear. Wait and find out. Patience young grasshopper. People have no patience these days.
 

arby18

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The answer is pretty clear. Wait and find out. Patience young grasshopper. People have no patience these days.

After 5 years of mediocrity, I'm surprised that anybody has any patience left whatsoever. How much longer do we need to wait? Another 5 years? An expansion team wouldn't need that much time, mostly because they'd know they're bad enough and would draft highly for a few years.

Seriously, though. How much time is required in your (or anyone else's) opinion?
 

tbcwpg

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Hey, you never know. Maybe the pending-RFA's will hold out this summer because they don't like playing on a bad Jets team. None of us know that. But I figure making 10-15x what the kids on the Moose make might help them get over it a little easier.

But you're dodging the question: what does Development from within the Jets organization look like? The top-10 picks (Scheifele, Trouba and Ehlers) as well as college-boy Copp never played a regular season game in the AHL (55 got some playoff games when his junior season was over). They were developed elsewhere.

Take them away, and it's Chiarot, Lowry and Helly. The first two should likely be down in the AHL right now as it is, and the 3rd guy (who's awesome, BTW) is only here because Pavelec is hurt. The rest of the prospects are getting boot-stomped on the regular in the minors (9 wins in 30 games).

I think it involves more than just playing for the Moose (or Tulsa, I guess, but I think the relationship with Tulsa is a lot looser). Development, to me, is consistent improvement, or learning lessons about being a pro and the things you have to do in the pros that you didn't have to do in junior or in college. For some people, that's playing in the minors, and for others (like Ehlers, for example), that's playing with the big team.

There is also a fair amount of back-and-forth between prospects and the team throughout the year. I'm sure the Jets check in with all of their picks, watch them when they can, and offer things they'd like them to work on. There are the summer development camps, even training camps can be a great development experience for a player who's sent back down fairly quickly (Brendan Lemieux, for example).

A comparison to an expansion team isn't quite right. This team came to Winnipeg already better than an expansion team, and I'd suggest that they're far better now than they were in 2011, despite the position in the standings.

I think it's a big short-sighted to expect that all development happens within the context of playing in the "organization". I'm a fan of the college development, because you're a freshman kid playing against juniors and seniors - it's a bit more like the pro level than playing in the CHL is, so you learn a bit more in that environment, even though you aren't lighting up scoresheets at 2-3 points/game. I think the Jets feel similarly about the NCAA route of prospect development.
 

ps241

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I don't at all disagree with your assessment. I disagree with how readily you seem to be to brush off the year as some what wasted. I think it's definitely wasted. We also have a lot of space, I agree. In fact the most cap space. This year didn't have to go into full crap fest... but yet here we are.

At the end of the day, miscalculations are miscalculations.

Chevy miscalculated how ready Petan was
Chevy miscalculated how ready Copp was
Chevy miscalculated how ready Lowry was
Chevy miscalculated how ready Chiarot was
[mod]


This is a lot of miscalculations for a single GM in 5 short off seasons who has yet to get this team to turn the corner. I am not confident in any way shape or form he really understands how to develop our youth and how to build a team. He took a lot of risks and so far it's been one miss after another. Are there positives? Of course. But at the end of the day those positives pale in comparison to the negatives. Our power slide into the toilet year 5 reinforces that.

Not saying I agree fully with your list (Copp has looked fine to me and Lowry has bounced back) but I would add to it the most important name. Chevy miscalculated how ready Connor Hellebuyck was.
 

DiggerD

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Lowry had, by most accounts, a solid rookie year last year, and a great playoff. This year he was asked to play a bigger role, and he struggled with it. He lost confidence (hard not to when you become a whipping boy), and his play suffered. He was sent down, and played very well for the Moose, before Scheifele's injury made them call him back up. He has been back for 5 games, and has looked like the Lowry of last year. He popped two against the Coyotes, but I thought his game against San Jose was even better.
He doesn't need more years on the farm.
 

Say What

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Development isn't restricted to making Player X, a better hockey player.....that's Coaching. Development is all encompassing....it's about hockey lifestyle.

Development is the 'process' of teaching young men how to absorb knowledge in a meaningful and useful way. With emphasis on treating hockey as a career. In a Professional atmosphere. Whilst enhancing their elite skills.

Applying on a daily basis, such concepts as: How to train your body effectively, how to recover from stress and fatigue. How to and what to watch, during video sessions. How to apply what you learn to the on-ice practice. Scheduling meals (non team related), managing time off, maximizing the effects of weight training. Recovering from a 'pro' travel routine and what effects it has on you as an individual athlete, etc.. It's teaching 'former' stars of various levels, how to develop into a good 'Pro'. Paying attention to the little details to become the best player/person you can be.....aka, Developing.

It's an ongoing process of learning the nuances. It's developing your skills within this pressure filled environment. Development has a lot to do with being consistent in your 'game' while taking on all these (much more) demanding pressures. Remember, most of these players have been 'developing' habits since Bantam & Junior hockey. Some transition effortlessly, others...........

A lot of it starts with who you draft. Those individuals that will make the sacrifices to get ahead of others. And to be honest, nowadays, every team is drafting players with very similar traits. Good character, good work ethic etc. etc..

Scoring more points at a 'lower' level (AHL); or scoring less points at a 'higher' level (NHL) of competition doesn't necessarily relate to a player's overall development. It's mostly irrelevant. It's learning 'your' role within the Organization's blueprint of that player's projected ceiling. It's comprehensive, and not easily identifiable by where a player is playing (what league).

For example, when prospects show up to camp; some are physically ready, others are mentally ready. Player A may be able to understand the concepts and compete at the increased pace required, but can't physically be effective. Player B may be physically ready (winning battles), but the processing of the reads & assignments are not yet quick enough. Both need developing in certain areas, at a slower pace.
However, those players that 'prove' in camp to be physically able and mentally sharp enough, will quite often stick (depending on roster limitations). Further 'development' can be attained at the highest level (NHL) because the speed of the game isn't affecting them Physically or Mentally. It becomes a better place to develop. There are exceptions, like players that can't go to the AHL but are to advanced for Junior...but I regress.

Basically prospects DEVELOP: their Mind (attitude, awareness) & Body (skills, training/recovery) as a Professional athlete (earning a living). At this point, it's merely fine tuning. They know how to play hockey. To imply that Development is tied to how early/late an individual enters the NHL is misleading. Though not entirely inaccurate.

In the end, a 'well' developed player can compete 'consistently' at their highest level, in spite of all the external pressures of NHL life. The 'process', is a means to an end.
 

Daximus

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After 5 years of mediocrity, I'm surprised that anybody has any patience left whatsoever. How much longer do we need to wait? Another 5 years? An expansion team wouldn't need that much time, mostly because they'd know they're bad enough and would draft highly for a few years.

Seriously, though. How much time is required in your (or anyone else's) opinion?

5 years really isn't that long... especially when your dealing with a team that has had zero top 5 draft picks since moving. If you think a contender can be built within 5 years of drafting outside the top 5 then I don't know what to tell you.
I've been saying the older core isn't good enough to get it done for quite some time now. Chevy and Co. thought differently. I'm just glad they didn't hedge all their bets against those guys or we would be in a much much worse situation now and down the road.
 

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