Do you want Ovechkin to break Gretzky's goal record?

[Hockey Outsider]

Sorry for the late come back. I understand what you're trying to say but I have absolutely ZERO dog in this fight... My favorite players from this era were Pavel Bure (that I disqualified because he retired too young), Felix Potvin, Nicklas Lidstrom, Dominik Hasek, Daniel Alfredsson, Miikka Kiprusoff...

I'm not cherry picking anything. I am using GPG (Goals per Game) which is THE best stat to determine goal scoring ability/results... What other stats should be used? Raw goals scored? Was Patrick Marleau a better goal scorer than Guy Lafleur and Maurice Richard? Try to get out of Montreal alive saying that.

Then I am taking in consideration eras where these players played in and try to convert it in the statistics. There's really nothing more than this. If you or anybody don't like the results, there's absolutely nothing I can do about it, it's pure statistics

The same exercise could be done for playoffs if you want, I just didn't do it because well, I have other things to do in life lol

As for the rest, it's already all explained in some of my posts on the subject. It's literally IMPOSSIBLE to say everything in every post. Look at post #137, it's all there

All that said, thank you for constructive criticism, which is much more appreciated than some of the replies we get sometimes

No worries (and no need to apologize - it's not a bad thing to spend less time online over the holidays).

I agree that career totals aren't a good way of measuring players. Otherwise it leads to conclusions that are obviously false (ie Ron Francis > Mario Lemieux, Mark Recchi > Alex Ovechkin, Shane Doan > Maurice Richard, Larry Robinson > Bobby Orr, etc).

I think our disagreement relates to how you're using GPG. What I was trying to explain is - it can be misleading to compare GPG (or assists/points per game) for players with different career lengths. Sticking with the example I used before - Gretzky scored more goals than Bossy in any type of head to head comparison. You can compare their best 3, 5, 7, or 10 years (or any other number). You can make those years consecutive or not. You can look at actual goals, or goals per game. You can also look at specific ages (ie from 20 to 25). Whatever parameters you use - Gretzky is ahead.

Bossy is ahead in career GPG because he played a grand total of 22 regular season games after his 30th birthday. Gretzky played 592. Granted, Gretzky declined as a goal scorer as he got older. But it seems wrong to rank Bossy ahead, when Gretzky was better in any type of head-to-head comparison, and Gretzky scored around 200 more goals in his 30's (while Bossy scored close to zero).

Ultimately, my point is - we can measure players using (adjusted) goals per game. But the comparison needs to be on even footing (ie best 5, 7 or 10 years). Otherwise all the players who had long, full careers (Gretzky, Howe, Jagr, etc) are being penalized. (And yes - it's harder to pull the data for that).

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Looking at some of these posts really makes me wonder why my post saying “I hope he breaks the record because he is Russian and we have so little these days” was deleted

 

[wetcoast]

They haven't though. That's just a bullshit narrative from haters who are pissed that the all-time goals record is under threat from someone who is not their guy.

Here in real life Ovechkin has been the best player on the team his entire career, and they've won a ton of games with Ovie as the centerpiece.

Your beloved Penguins have sacrificed 7 of their previous 11 first round draft picks trying to keep Crosby relevant. THAT is sacrificing something. Whereas the Capitals first round draft picks are starting to bear fruit.



So you are constantly saying irrational things about Ovechkin for no apparent reason then?

Yeah I think not.

You ithink that stats are an irrational thing now?

Thank you for making my point.

 

[Sean Garrity]

I want Ovi to be the placeholder for AM34.

 

[RANDOMH3RO]

I want to see him break it. A Gretzky record that was thought to be untouchable being knocked down by a guy who I watched every step of the way sounds exciting to me. A big part of my sports fandom is for seeing moments like that.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Wow...almost 50/50 split.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Needs a don’t care either way option

 

[JoVel]

Right now it looks like he's gonna break the record the same way Yandle broke the ironman streak record.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Right now it looks like he's gonna break the record the same way Yandle broke the ironman streak record.

In his last 5 seasons, Wayne Gretzky had 11, 23, 25, 23, and 9 goals.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

In his last 5 seasons, Wayne Gretzky had 11, 23, 25, 23, and 9 goals.

Yeah but he was a good boy , canadian too! its our game!

 

[Steven Toast]

In his last 5 seasons, Wayne Gretzky had 11, 23, 25, 23, and 9 goals.

Not the right seasons to compare. In the 5 seasons leading up to Gretzky passing Howe he had 40, 41, 31, 16 in 45 GP, and 38 goals.

 

[KeydGV21]

Not the right seasons to compare. In the 5 seasons leading up to Gretzky passing Howe he had 40, 41, 31, 16 in 45 GP, and 38 goals.

Gretzky’s “decline” also saw him a PPG player until his last season…after leading the league in assists the two years prior.

He wasn’t just hanging on the way it appears Ovechkin will be in 2-3 years…

 

[Steven Toast]

Gretzky’s “decline” also saw him a PPG player until his last season…after leading the league in assists the two years prior.

He wasn’t just hanging on the way it appears Ovechkin will be in 2-3 years…

Exactly, people trying to compare how Gretzky's career ended to Ovi's now need to give their heads a shake.

 

[ole ole]

Records are meant to be broken. More fun that way.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Not the right seasons to compare. In the 5 seasons leading up to Gretzky passing Howe he had 40, 41, 31, 16 in 45 GP, and 38 goals.

No, I'm correct. 894 is the number, not 802 or whatever. Ovechkin's commensurate seasons relative to 802 are 51, 48, 24 (in 45 GP), 50, and 42 (in 73 GP).

You are being unreasonable.

Gretzky had every advantage by playing in the highest scoring era. In fact that is the reason he has the record over Gordie Howe at all.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Gretzky’s “decline” also saw him a PPG player until his last season…after leading the league in assists the two years prior.

Newsflash: Ovie was over a PPG with 42 goals last season (age 37) and had 90 points and 50 goals the season before that (age 36).

In fact that is the highest goal total and among the top 10 point seasons for any player ever aged 36 or older.

So this narrative that Ovechkin is compiling weak seasons is yet another pathetically false blatant lie against Ovechkin. -Which unfortunately is a well-established pattern for *ahem* some reason or other.

 

[Steven Toast]

No, I'm correct. 894 is the number, not 802 or whatever. Ovechkin's commensurate seasons relative to 802 are 51, 48, 24 (in 45 GP), 50, and 42 (in 73 GP).

You are being unreasonable.

Gretzky had every advantage by playing in the highest scoring era. In fact that is the reason he has the record over Gordie Howe at all.

No you are wrong. Gretzky was chasing 801 not 894. Look at his seasons leading up to #801, which I provided.

Ovi is chasing 894.

You chase the record that exists when you are playing.

 

[Midnight Judges]

No you are wrong. Gretzky was chasing 801 not 894. Look at his seasons leading up to #801, which I provided.

Ovi is chasing 894.

You chase the record that exists when you are playing.

Your post is gibberish.

You can compare Ovechkin's seasons leading to 894 against Gretzky's, or you can compare Ovechkin's seasons leading up tp 802 to Gretzky's. Or you can compare them at the same age. Or you can adjust totals to account for Gretzky's enormous era scoring environment advantage.

But comparing Ovechkin to 894 and Gretzky to 802 is nothing more than a double standard that you just invented.

 

[Video Nasty]

It absolutely eats @Midnight Judges alive that Gretzky will always be more revered, regardless of what Ovechkin does.

 

[Midnight Judges]

It absolutely eats @Midnight Judges alive that Gretzky will always be more revered, regardless of what Ovechkin does.

You have massively misread things.

Nobody is arguing that Ovechkin is a better player than Gretzky.

Gretzky is the greatest player of all time. In a class by himself. Nobody comes close IMO. Nobody is even in the ballpark. I don't see how it's even debatable. There is no "big four" IMO. There is a big one, and it's Wayne Gretzky in a tier all by himself, and it's really two tiers above anyone else.

But in terms of just goal scoring - yes, Ovechkin is better. He led the league 9 times (to Gretzky's 5) and he is challenging Gretzky's career total despite playing in an era where scoring goals is substantially more difficult.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

What will Midnight do when Matthews breaks the scoring record? Probably revert to some conspiracy about the USA media. It will be fun.

 

[Midnight Judges]

What will Midnight do when Matthews breaks the scoring record? Probably revert to some conspiracy about the USA media. It will be fun.

Oh man you must feel so vindicated by imagining that extremely unlikely thing as already being true.

 

[Video Nasty]

You have massively misread things.

Nobody is arguing that Ovechkin is a better player than Gretzky.

Gretzky is the greatest player of all time. In a class by himself. Nobody comes close IMO. Nobody is even in the ballpark. I don't see how it's even debatable. There is no "big four" IMO. There is a big one, and it's Wayne Gretzky in a tier all by himself, and it's really two tiers above anyone else.

But in terms of just goal scoring - yes, Ovechkin is better. He led the league 9 times (to Gretzky's 5) and he is challenging Gretzky's career total despite playing in an era where scoring goals is substantially more difficult.

I don’t think you realize the seething heat that roll off your posts in some of these arguments.

Frankly, I’ve always been more impressed by Gretzky doing what he did goal wise with a pass first, second, and maybe even third mindset. 1985-1986 illustrates this perfectly. 4 wins in a row, wants to go out and average two assists per game instead, and then wins again the following season.

I’ve always been a little less impressed by Ovechkin’s level of competition. Shame Stamkos couldn’t have pulled the curtain back a bit.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I’ve always been a little less impressed by Ovechkin’s level of competition. Shame Stamkos couldn’t have pulled the curtain back a bit.

Here's a bunch of data. Ovie does well compared to anyone in terms of goal scoring:

 

[powerbomb]

It will never not be funny when someone uses "adjusted" stats to try propping up their point, as if the numbers are in any way definitive, conclusive, or, indeed, "real"