Do you consider Matthews a 'Generational' player or talent?

[Buck Naked]

Goals is a sub-group to you?

There's literally an award dedicated to the best goal scorer.

Show me the award for backhand passer, I'll wait.

Who's the generational gentleman?

 

[nowhereman]

Easy no.

Matthews is a tremendous scorer who is hitting his prime/peak but is not all that different than Bossy, Brett Hull, etc. And most pure goalscorers' overall games don't peak for more than a few years. Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, and McDavid all won Harts, Lindays and Art Ross trophies in their first or second seasons and continued to reign for years. Generational talents are the best in the world from almost the moment they step on NHL ice.

 

[Chips]

If he’s generational then we have 3-4 generational players within one generation. So no.

One could be generational at a significant thing. If he keeps up Ovechkin like goal totals for at least several years

 

[Divine]

Easy no.

Matthews is a tremendous scorer who is hitting his prime/peak but is not all that different than Bossy, Brett Hull, etc. And most pure goalscorers' overall games don't peak for more than a few years. Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, and McDavid all won Harts, Lindays and Art Ross trophies in their first or second seasons and continued to reign for years. Genrational talents are the best in the world from almost the moment they step on NHL ice.

I wouldn't call Matthews a pure goalscorer though. He was second in the league in points per game (min. 50 GP). Matthews issue is he's never played more than 73 games since his rookie season. He could very well add an Art Ross if he plays 82 games.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

No.

I think the term 'generational' gets thrown out *way* too much. Only a handful of players are "generational" because they defined an era of hockey. Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Trevor Linden, Dominik Hasek, Sidney Crosby, Alex Ovechkin, Connor McDavid, are the more recent generational talents. Before that? Some of the top players from those great Islanders and Habs teams would likely get in.

A generational talent is someone that players and fans will remember 30-40 years from now.

Matthews *might* become a generational talent but it seems unlikely to me. Matthews, to me, is a superstar.

I can't believe you just slid Trevor Linden in there. lol

 

[norrisnick]

Who's the generational gentleman?

Still mad Lidstrom never won a Byng...

 

[Sugi21]

In terms of goal scoring he’s a generational scorer like Ovie

 

[dr robbie]

HF Boards:



You're Generational! And You're Generational! And You're Generational!

 

[Connor McConnor]

You still said he wasn't ppg until he played with Marner which is a lie. Not really sure what this purposefully obtuse argument that ignores the reality of shortened seasons in a global pandemic has to do with anything.

How did McDavid and Drai do during the same period? Thought so.

 

[Xspyrit]

Your original post makes no sense. You try to separate generational into every single facet of the game. That’s not what a generational player is. They are generational or they aren’t. You aren’t a “generational goal scorer” or “generational passer”.

AM is not massively better than Drai MacK or Kuch. He’s a better goal scorer than all of them but he’s worse in other areas which make those players his comparables. Just because your an Ottawa fan and think he’s generational doesn’t mean anything lol. You’re wrong. Simple as that. I don’t need to repeat the many posts stating the clear factual evidence he’s nowhere close. Please stop using his goals per game average or goal output as your only factor. You can tell a generational player right away. The dude had 1 80 point season in his first 5 years.

There is so much wrong with your post that I could write an essay lol

1) Because you just can't compare forwards, goalies and D-men, I think there is a clear separation to be done. I might have been "pushing it" with 2-way forwards but I found it unfair for guys like Messier and Bergeron to not be considered. I mean, players like them are very rare, maybe once in a generation. Same with goal scorers : Ovechkin is not a generational player without goal scoring, which I find completely unfair.

If Matthews keep the same G/GP as his current career G/GP (0.64) for the next 10 years and do not miss any games, he will sit at 784 goals before he turns 35 years old. That would be 3rd of all-time. Ovie currently has 780 goals and he is 37 years old...

The only problem here is that you're not letting it sink in.

Of course, there is no guarantees he stays healthy or doesn't regress but as it has been REPEATED, he is TRENDING like that.

2) These players are elite of the elite but they're not generational. They aren't far though. They haven't and won't be able to pull away from the pack like Ovie and Crosby did in the past, or like Matthews is currently doing too. Well, unless him scoring 101 freaking goals in his last 125 games was a fluke. Again, you're not letting that sink in.

The "being an Ottawa fan" thing is to demonstrate that I am not biased at all. You on the other hand... as usual. Saying that I am wrong because it doesn't fit your narrative/opinion doesn't mean anything "lol"

You don’t “develop” into a generational player. Generational players are usually ppg players the minute they step onto NHL ice. Every single player we universally consider generational has done this. He’s nowhere even close to that. He’s been outproduced by several players that he’s considered better than.

Just incase any Leaf fans want to say “Drai only outproduced him because of McDavid” should be careful. AM has only been a PPG player since he played with Marner. Before that he was a 40 goal scorer who put up 70-80 points.

Did you know that Auston Matthews scored 4 goals in his first NHL game? Ouch.

This obsession with only looking at points is ridiculous (like if the game was played on hockeydb.com). By the way, Matthews has been PPG or over PPG in every season EXCEPT his 19 y/o rookie season, an age where Ovie wasn't even in the NHL for example.

It's so easy to debunk your baseless arguments

 

[Connor McConnor]

There is so much wrong with your post that I could write an essay lol

1) Because you just can't compare forwards, goalies and D-men, I think there is a clear separation to be done. I might have been "pushing it" with 2-way forwards but I found it unfair for guys like Messier and Bergeron to not be considered. I mean, players like them are very rare, maybe once in a generation. Same with goal scorers : Ovechkin is not a generational player without goal scoring, which I find completely unfair.

If Matthews keep the same G/GP as his current career G/GP (0.64) for the next 10 years and do not miss any games, he will sit at 784 goals before he turns 35 years old. That would be 3rd of all-time. Ovie currently has 780 goals and he is 37 years old...

The only problem here is that you're not letting it sink in.

Of course, there is no guarantees he stays healthy or doesn't regress but as it has been REPEATED, he is TRENDING like that.

2) These players are elite of the elite but they're not generational. They aren't far though. They haven't and won't be able to pull away from the pack like Ovie and Crosby did in the past, or like Matthews is currently doing too. Well, unless him scoring 101 freaking goals in his last 125 games was a fluke. Again, you're not letting that sink in.

The "being Ottawa fan", it is to demonstrate that I am not biased at all. You on the other hand, seems to be the biggest Oilers HOMER on this part of the boards. You saying that I am wrong because it doesn't fit your narrative/opinion doesn't mean anything "lol"



1) did you know that Auston Matthews scored 4 goals in his first NHL game? Ouch.

Not only this obsession at only at points is ridiculous, like if the game was played on hockeydb.com, but your stance here is even more ridiculous. He has been PPG in every season EXCEPT his 19 y/o rookie season, an age where Ovie wasn't even in the NHL for example.

It's so easy to debunk your baseless arguments

It’s easy yet you’re in the 20% minority lmao. No point in arguing any further we won’t come to an agreement.

 

[Xspyrit]

... since it's the "other than goal scoring" parts of Ovechkin's career that makes him generational and separates him from other elite goal scorers like... Matthews.

Why do advanced stats make it seem like Ovechkin's defensive game is terrible while Matthew's is pretty good? The physical play? Leadership? What is it exactly?

I am saying that as someone who have always preferred Ovechkin to Crosby for example and is really really hoping he breaks Gretzky's goal record. Maybe it's because I am European but I still like Russian players a lot more than NA players, as you can see. Matthews on the other hand is an American playing on my "hated" rival team

 

[jigglysquishy]

If Matthews keep the same G/GP as his current career G/GP (0.64) for the next 10 years and do not miss any games, he will sit at 784 goals before he turns 35 years old. That would be 3rd of all-time. Ovie currently has 780 goals and he is 37 years old...

This has literally never happened in NHL history.

Ovechkin, Crosby, Jagr, Lemieux, Gretzky, Lafleur, Orr, Howe, Richard.

Literally none kept the same level of play at age 35 as at age 25.

Matthews won't either. Gretzky was had 481 goals in 553 games (0.87 GPG) when he was 25.

Gretzky did not hit the 1300 goals he was on pace for.

 

[Xspyrit]

It’s easy yet you’re in the 20% minority lmao. No point in arguing any further we won’t come to an agreement.

I hate to say it but anti-Leafs bias is real here

Knowing that Matthews scored 101 goals in his last 125 games, his G/GP could be even better than his current career G/GP but what if this below happens? Will you change your tune?

If Matthews keep the same G/GP as his current career G/GP (0.64) for the next 10 years and do not miss any games, he will sit at 784 goals before he turns 35 years old. That would be 3rd of all-time. Ovie currently has 780 goals and he is 37 years old...

This has literally never happened in NHL history.

Ovechkin, Crosby, Jagr, Lemieux, Gretzky, Lafleur, Orr, Howe, Richard.

Literally none kept the same level of play at age 35 as at age 25.

Matthews won't either. Gretzky was had 481 goals in 553 games (0.87 GPG) when he was 25.

Gretzky did not hit the 1300 goals he was on pace for.

Of course, but what if Matthews keeps scoring goals after age 35 like Ovie is doing now? Even if he regresses in his 30's, he could still end up in the top-5 scoring of all-time.

What in Matthews game tell you that he's going to regress anytime soon? Based on him scoring 101 in 125 games the last 2 seasons, it seems like it's actually trending the other way...

Edit : did you understand that it was from 25 to 35? Because you saying "Literally none kept the same level of play at age 35 as at age 25" makes me doubt...

 

[norrisnick]

There is so much wrong with your post that I could write an essay lol

This obsession with only looking at points is ridiculous (like if the game was played on hockeydb.com). By the way, Matthews has been PPG or over PPG in every season EXCEPT his 19 y/o rookie season, an age where Ovie wasn't even in the NHL for example.

It's so easy to debunk your baseless arguments

People are already dunking on the other tidbits so I'm going to focus on this one that has popped up several times already.

Tell me what was going on when Ovechkin was 19 years old.

Baseless arguments indeed...

 

[jigglysquishy]

I hate to say it but anti-Leafs bias is real here

Knowing that Matthews scored 101 goals in his last 125 games, his G/GP could be even better than his current career G/GP but what if this below happens? Will you change your tune?

If Matthews keep the same G/GP as his current career G/GP (0.64) for the next 10 years and do not miss any games, he will sit at 784 goals before he turns 35 years old. That would be 3rd of all-time. Ovie currently has 780 goals and he is 37 years old...

Every sane person in the world can say with 100% certainty he will not maintain his G/GP at age 35 as he has at age 25.

It has never happened in NHL history.

Ovechkin's GPG at the end of 2009-10 (same age to the days as Matthews today): 0.679
Ovechkin's GPG today: 0.612
Ovechkin's GPG 2010-11 to today: 0.582

And Ovechkin has the greatest longevity of any goal scorer ever.

 

[Panthaz89]

It's debateable.

He's been doing generational things like 51G in 50 games, 60 goals in 73 games (67G pace coming off wrist surgery). He came off wrist surgery, missed training camp and scored 1 goal all of October last year due to his wrist/timing recovering and still finished with 60 goals in 73 games.

If Matthews can score 70 this year, which is (astoundingly) realistic if he stays healthy and plays 82 games like last season then he's undoubtedly generational. It hasn't been done in 30 years and only 8 players in NHL history have done it.

Generational is not hitting an arbitrary goal total its being the best player consistently throughout the years McDavid was still on top of the league last year in points with a decent distance ahead of everybody. THAT is generational.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Goals is a sub-group to you?

There's literally an award dedicated solely to the best goal scorer.

Show me the award for the best backhand passer, I'll wait.

Show me a generational player who’s never come top three in points?

 

[Xspyrit]

Tell me what was going on when Ovechkin was 19 years old.

I don't know how to tell you but... this is completely irrelevant. This was not a slight against Ovechkin at all. And this is also not a Ovechkin-Matthews comparison

The point is the fact that Matthews wasn't PPG in his 19 y/o rookie season doesn't prevent him from having one of the greatest (individualistic) careers in history, like the other poster was stating. Maybe you should read that poster (non) argument?

People are already dunking on the other tidbits so...

That doesn't make it smart or truthful. Exhibit 1 : earth flatters. Exhibit 2 : anti-vaxxers, etc. There are hordes of that as well. I don't need to be "popular" to make intelligible arguments. Just tell me what is wrong instead. Let's see if it's more than OPINION based.

Every sane person in the world can say with 100% certainty he will not maintain his G/GP at age 35 as he has at age 25.

It has never happened in NHL history.

Ovechkin's GPG at the end of 2009-10 (same age to the days as Matthews today): 0.679
Ovechkin's GPG today: 0.612
Ovechkin's GPG 2010-11 to today: 0.582

And Ovechkin has the greatest longevity of any goal scorer ever.

And did I say that?

Matthews has a 0.81 G/GP in his 23 and 24 y/o seasons... I have projected the next 10 seasons (25 y/o to 34 y/o) with his current career 0.64 G/GP (19 to 24 y/o), which is a good 14 goals less per season than his recent production...

Do you realize that if Matthews keeps his recent 0.81 G/GP for the next 5 years then fell off a cliff at let's say 0.47 G/GP the following 5 years, then he would still sit at 784 goals BEFORE he turns 35 years old?

Even if he fails to produce at 0.64 G/GP during that period of time, he should still have the 35-40 y/o seasons to continue piling up the goals, like Ovechkin is currently/doing.

I don't see him scoring 66 goals every season (0.81) nor 39 goals (0.47) so I thought 52 goals (0.64) was actually a good compromise. The scary part is I could see him maintain that average for the next 7-8 years if all things stay equal.

Of course all that is assuming healthy enough to play most games, which doesn't always happen (and I'm not the type to wish injuries on other team's players)

 

[norrisnick]

I don't know how to tell you but... this is completely irrelevant. This was not a slight against Ovechkin at all. And this is also not a Ovechkin-Matthews comparison

The point is the fact that Matthews wasn't PPG in his 19 y/o rookie season doesn't prevent him from having one of the greatest (individualistic) careers in history, like the other poster was stating. Maybe you should read that poster (non) argument?

Then why bring up the fact that Ovechkin wasn't in the NHL at 19 as if it was some great failing on his part? Either it's important to your point or it isn't. But if you're going to make a silly statement, expect to get called out on it.

 

[norrisnick]

That doesn't make it smart or truthful. Exhibit 1 : earth flatters. Exhibit 2 : anti-vaxxers, etc. There are hordes of that as well. I don't need to be "popular" to make intelligible arguments. Just tell me what is wrong instead. Let's see if it's more than OPINION based.

And did I say that?

Matthews has a 0.81 G/GP in his 23 and 24 y/o seasons... I have projected the next 10 seasons (25 y/o to 34 y/o) with his current career 0.64 G/GP (19 to 24 y/o), which is a good 14 goals less per season than his recent production...

Do you realize that if Matthews keeps his recent 0.81 G/GP for the next 5 years then fell off a cliff at let's say 0.47 G/GP the following 5 years, then he would still sit at 784 goals BEFORE he turns 35 years old?

Even if he fails to produce at 0.64 G/GP during that period of time, he should still have the 35-40 y/o seasons to continue piling up the goals, like Ovechkin is currently/doing.

I don't see him scoring 66 goals every season (0.81) nor 39 goals (0.47) so I thought 52 goals (0.64) was actually a good compromise. The scary part is I could see him maintain that average for the next 7-8 years if all things stay equal.

Of course all that is assuming healthy enough to play most games, which doesn't always happen.

I think everyone fully understands that if completely unprecedented things happen in the future that silly numbers will be the result. That is not the issue. The issue is your trying to outline completely unprecedented levels of production as some sort of reasonable expectation.

 

[Xspyrit]

Then why bring up the fact that Ovechkin wasn't in the NHL at 19 as if it was some great failing on his part? Either it's important to your point or it isn't. But if you're going to make a silly statement, expect to get called out on it.

Because you see it from the side of "being defensive", when it was actually used to give a reason/excuse to Matthews. I mean, the NHL talent level is so high these days that it's not particularly easy to go PPG as a teenager, even for insane talents like Matthews

Again, I am an Ovechkin fan and want him to break Gretzky record. On the other hand, I hope Matthews suddenly falls off a cliff (just after signing the biggest contract in NHL history) and becomes a cap anchor for my divisional rival.

I am still able to call a spade a spade and Matthews goal scoring is really trending.

It's not a silly statement, it just went completely over your head because you saw it from a failing on Ovechkin's part perspective

I think everyone fully understands that if completely unprecedented things happen in the future that silly numbers will be the result. That is not the issue. The issue is your trying to outline completely unprecedented levels of production as some sort of reasonable expectation.

Nah, it's a YOU problem for not understanding. I don't blame you, not everyone is good at reading + maths.

Read post #394, let me know if you still don't understand.

 

[norrisnick]

Nah, it's a YOU problem for not understanding. I don't blame you, not everyone is good at reading + maths.

Read post #394, let me know if you still don't understand.

I understand completely. You're staking a claim for Matthews maintaining a 5yr goal scoring average at the ages of 25 that 29 that has only ever been hit by Brett Hull and Mario Lemieux during one of the highest scoring eras in NHL history.

I don't see it.

 

[chauron]

Too soon still

 

[Connor McConnor]

Because you see it from the side of "being defensive", when it was actually used to give a reason/excuse to Matthews. I mean, the NHL talent level is so high these days that it's not particularly easy to go PPG as a teenager, even for insane talents like Matthews

Again, I am an Ovechkin fan and want him to break Gretzky record. On the other hand, I hope Matthews suddenly falls off a cliff (just after signing the biggest contract in NHL history) and becomes a cap anchor for my divisional rival.

I am still able to call a spade a spade and Matthews goal scoring is really trending.

It's not a silly statement, it just went completely over your head because you saw it from a failing on Ovechkin's part perspective



Nah, it's a YOU problem for not understanding. I don't blame you, not everyone is good at reading + maths.

Read post #394, let me know if you still don't understand.

Dude just take the L lmao.