Discussion for ALL Things for Brooklyn Bound Islanders: Part V

[stranger34]

I know what it is like to lose your team. This ain't it.

When the Romans defeated the Carthaginians for the last time they salted the soil to prevent Carthage from ever returning. They wiped Carthage off the face of the Earth with the design of removing it from history.

That is what happened to the Hartford Whalers, only with more betrayal. The move from NVMC to the Barclays is NOTHING like that.

Feeling as though you lost or didn't lose your team is subjective. There are probably some Brooklyn Dodgers fans who became LA dodgers fans... There are probably some Brooklyn Dodgers fans who wouldn't have followed them to Queens, nevermind California... There's no mathematical equation to determine what constitutes losing your team.

In my opinion moving them into Barclays isn't all that different than moving them into MSG.

I'd almost respect this move more if they just rebranded

 

[24diving]

I know what it is like to lose your team. This ain't it.

When the Romans defeated the Carthaginians for the last time they salted the soil to prevent Carthage from ever returning. They wiped Carthage off the face of the Earth with the design of removing it from history.

That is what happened to the Hartford Whalers, only with more betrayal. The move from NVMC to the Barclays is NOTHING like that.

Very true! The Isles move is nowhere near that extreme, and all things considered possibly the best outcome of the whole situation. But if you had people telling you how much better the Whalers were going to be financially when they move would you have cared? I know it is inconvenient, but you could at least fly to the games on weekends right? My only point is, that some should respect the fact that the move isnt all rosy in the eyes of quite a number of longtime fans, and not put them down for not agreeing that the Barclays move is great.

 

[BroadwayJay*]

Feeling as though you lost or didn't lose your team is subjective. There are probably some Brooklyn Dodgers fans who became LA dodgers fans... There are probably some Brooklyn Dodgers fans who wouldn't have followed them to Queens, nevermind California... There's no mathematical equation to determine what constitutes losing your team.

In my opinion they might as well have moved them into MSG.

They unretired the retired numbers. They retired the team song.

They changed the name and colors, then retained the rights to the old logo and refused to allow merchandose sales.

They made it so the team never existed. This doesnt compare.

You work in Manhattan! You can still go to games! My team was moved thousands of miles away.

 

[Isles Fan]

So far, the only evidence of Nassau's long-term future viability comes in the form of 1980s attendance figures, which are not particularly useful,

This coming from the same individual who used attendance figures from when the Nets played at NVMC in the 70's.

You really cannot make this stuff up.

 

[OlTimeHockey]

Stranger, this is the type of post that makes me crazy. I just posted six to eight links detailing why Nassau isn't a viable market right now. If you want to call it a borderline market, please a) define what that means and b) illustrate the point with data of some kind. Even if you just say, "Hey, year over year attendance improved x% during 2003 when the team was competitive," it's something. I'm not attacking you, but there's a general sense that a strong gut feeling is on a par with research and objective data. They are not equivalent. Saying you think Nassau could work without showing us why is like saying nothing at all. What leads you to that belief? Is it current attendance? Overall fan interest? Population growth? A demographic shift? Economic prosperity?

I would say there is universal agreement here that the franchise being in shambles had a deleterious effect on the fan base. Debating which fan bases have had the worst twenty years is subjective and pointless, but there are teams with similar circumstances that have performed better attendance-wise over time, and some that have performed worse.

I would caution you to analyze the Islander market, from the eighties to present, that being three counties, as one would analyze Chrysler from the sixties through the nineties.

And, naturally, allow for deep consideration of chronological and fiscal issues as well as geographical issues.

What if....Chrysler did not come out with the new designs? Daimler never came in? The Ram was not put forth or the Viper or 300? For the nimble.....these are contingencies not associated with the data. The relevance? Substantial to outcome.

What if Ratner's redesign efforts signal a return to the making of an appealing automobile? Or the new ownership's commitment to quality mirrors the late nineties growth Daimler Chrysler had?


And for fun.....what if the Islanders already, "got a Hemi?"

 

[MatthewBarnabysTears]

This coming from the same individual who used attendance figures from when the Nets played at NVMC in the 70's.

You really cannot make this stuff up.

Dude really? This is a conversation about competing nearby sports venues. The tone of this response makes it sound like he's suggesting the team play on Mars.

 

[Isles Fan]

I'm not insulted when someone says I steamroll people who present assumptions as truths without support. That is an accurate portrayal. It may not be nice, but it is true.

Can we start over with the positions of the two sides? I'm deeply confused by what point or points Isles Fan is trying to make.

How about we start over with a handful of narrow positional statements, maybe one broad positional statement too, and go from there?

I joined this debate being neither pro LI or pro Brooklyn. I joined this debate to disprove an opinion that LI was a bad market based solely on attendance numbers. A theory that doesn't work because of the omitting of arena size, demographics, team history, won/loss record etc....

Once the opinion was challenged and a more fair comparison brought forward which proved the initial claim incorrect based on the parameters given, it apparently ruffled feathers. This lead to claims of data provide, which was not, and what was provided proven incorrect. This was followed by sarcasm and insults as one might choose to do when they have nothing else.

That's kind of it in a nut shell.

 

[Isles Fan]

When data you post to show how wrong I am actually proves me right because you don't understand it, that's embarrassing.

I am assuming you're very young based on your writing, so let me share the tiny bit of wisdom gleaned from this thread:

The more we bicker, the dumber we both look. I'm legitimizing your ignorance and making myself look petty for continuing to pile on. If you are serious about understanding the topic, you need to learn BEFORE you jump into an argument, and you definitely want to know what phrases like "stagnant growth" mean. And I need to learn that just because someone wants to engage doesn't mean he or she is equipped to engage.

I'm frankly a bit embarrassed for myself. I'd like to continue engaging with people who are capable, but I am not going to continue being an ******* bully to people who can't. If I read this as an outsider, my two takeaways would be:
1) Abe is a total jerk to people defending Long Island because they aren't data or systems engineers (like I've occasionally thought of Jay when he steamrolls people for making assumptions; just being honest, Jay, and no offense intended, as I am doing the same thing myself)
2) Isles Fan is arguing about concepts he doesn't grasp for reasons that are not clear, and he writes English like it's his fifth language

As I said before, no one ever wins on the internet.

Wow, really that high on yourself are you?

FWIW I am probably old enough to be your father. I remember game one of this franchise and was at every cup winning game they had and countless in between.

As for grasping concepts, when you continuously compare apples to oranges you do make yourself look foolish and I am proud to see you can admit as much. I too would be embarrassed if I were in your shoes.

As I have proven the bulk of your data incorrect and in the spirit of not making you look like a jerk anymore, I will stop.

Let's just agree to disagree and pick this up in let's say 2019-2020 season.

 

[Abe Vukota]

This coming from the same individual who used attendance figures from when the Nets played at NVMC in the 70's.

You really cannot make this stuff up.

That wasn't me. Please stop typing.

 

[Isles Fan]

Dude really? This is a conversation about competing nearby sports venues. The tone of this response makes it sound like he's suggesting the team play on Mars.

I agree, but it was he who dug back to when the Nets were at NVMC in the '70's in a desperate attempt to try to support his position. But data from the Isles in the '80's is useless? You can't have it both ways.

For the record, I agree. It is useless. Anything outside of the past 15 years is useless.

 

[Isles Fan]

That wasn't me. Please stop typing.

My mistake and I apologize. It was thatguystevie.

 

[stranger34]

They unretired the retired numbers. They retired the team song.

They changed the name and colors, then retained the rights to the old logo and refused to allow merchandose sales.

They made it so the team never existed. This doesnt compare.

You work in Manhattan! You can still go to games! My team was moved thousands of miles away.

lol I even commute through LIRR - barclays.

 

[Isles Fan]

I believe the data isn't relevant because you take correlations and present them as causation.

Hahahahahahahahaha. You never proved chicago drew worse than Nassau. It's hillarious that you're so jaded by your emotions that you acrualky believe that. i don't even understand how anyone could come to that conclusion. Because you're flat out wrong. Your "raw" data didn't prove what you're claiming it did. The Blackhawks have always sold more tickets. Always. No amount of trying to skew those numbers is ever going to change that. The blackhawks have always sold more tickets. The percentage of those tickets sold to total number of seats is irrelevant and has no bearing on the converstaion. Because the Blackhawks sold more tickets than the islanders every.single.year.

Lol, at you saying the past doesn't count. Does that mean we can Ignore the 80's? Does that mean that we can say, with 100% accuracy, that the isles have never had good attendance? Because they haven't been out of the bottom 10 in the past two decades. Because, after all, the 80's was a different time so those years don't count.

I'm over here laughing at your speculation about tickets in Brooklyn. No one here can say with certainty what will happen. You'd have to be pretty arrogant to assume you'd know.

It's also a good point about less seats in Brooklyn. According to the logic you applied to the Blackhawks vs. isles debate that automatically puts them in a better market. According to your logic they can now sell less tickets but still fill the stadium to a higher total capacity. That puts Brooklyn at an automatic advantage. Or does that logic only apply to arguements where you need it to? Did you not realize that you were shooting yourself in the foot there?


Also, nasaau has been bottom of total tickets sold for the past 30 years as well as % of total capacity sold. It doesn't matter which way you look at it. They're always on the bottom.

My arguement has always been that nasaau is a bad market. Which has been proven by their bottom 10 attendance in both total tickets sold and % of capacity filled for three decades.

The nets sold poorly when they played in nasaau, the islanders have sold poorly while they played in nasaau yet you will stand there, in spite of factual evidence you claim otherwise. You try to skew the facts so hard with flawed logic that Your logic has become so dostorted that you're contradictinng yourself without even realizing it(as I've pointed out above).

They've had awful attendenance through bad stretches while markets like the Rangers toronto the Hawks, etc. have all continuted to outsell them through their own rough patches.

Give it a rest man. You're not making any valid points. Take the emotion out of your arguemt, step back, and really look at the situation.

I'll let this Abe guy continue to embarrass you but I'm not going to argue with someone who ignores blatant facts any more.

Perhaps you should step back and rethink (and try spell check). I absolutely proved the Isles out drew Chicago not only in certain seasons but for almost a ten year span.

In 07-08 the Hawks drew an avg of 16,814. You know why the Isles couldn't beat that number? Because their arena doesn't have that many seats! They will always have an opportunity to sell more tickets based on sheer volume of seats available. Cannot believe I had to point that out.So in your world any team that has a bigger arena than the Isles is in a better market.

Simple supply and demand my friend. If you have a bigger supply, there is less demand. When there are more seats to sell you can sell more at cheaper prices thereby driving up your numbers. When it comes to tickets sold the Isles cannot compete there, that is a fact. That is why you have to go to a common thread and that being percentage sold, which showed the Isles higher than the Hawks for a time span you highlighted.

I give you credit for realizing that the move to a smaller capacity may increase the percentage sold. May increase, not a given. Again supply and demand. That said, because it is a smaller arena they will sell less tickets and their position in tickets sold will remain in the bottom percentile of the league. So based on your theory, because they will sell less tickets than Chicago, Brooklyn will be a bad market too. For you the sake of your own position, you might want to hitch on to my percentage sold comparison, it may help your cause.

As for the Nets, anyone that has to go back over 40 years to try and prove a point isn't even worth talking about.

 

[Bert Marshall days]

First off welcome back.
Secondly for all of us who are still "delusional", can you please define what you mean by success? Would "half as successful" mean that the Islanders only lose 72M in hockey operations once they move, since the Nets lost $144M from basketball operations last year (see link, there are many other's quoting this number)? The Nets had a huge marketing blitz when they launched the team in the basketball mecca of Brooklyn. People there have not had a Brooklyn brand in most of our lifetimes.. I would agree the Nets were hugely successful in the short term from a merchandise standpoint but since that was the launch of a new brand they will not be able to sustain that, especially without on court success. IMO, the Islanders will not have anywhere near that marketing hype as Brooklyn was not clamoring for a hockey team, hockey has nowhere near the support that basketball does in the boroughs (and most of the country) and they already have the rangers. . Let's give it a few years before we call the Nets a success, they are a complete mess given their roster/cap/draft pick situation, and attendance has already started to slowly decrease. They are now 19th and at 93% capacity, while the Knicks are 4th and at 100% capacity. Where will Brooklyn attendance be if they don't have playoff success for say 5 years, will they still be at 93% and selling all of those corporate boxes? I don't believe so but don't have a crystal ball. I expect that gap between the Knicks/Nets to widen as time goes by and less people are drawn to the new shiny arena. Whats more, since there was no natural demand for a hockey team in Brooklyn I fully expect the disparity to be far greater with the rangers and islanders. Honestly, I hope I am wrong because the Islanders as a team are set to embark on a new golden age, carving out their own identity, separate from the Dynasty. I wish them success there but don't see it.





http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/6/30/5857852/brooklyn-nets-financial-reports-losses-lakers-profits

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

Thanks. Won't stay long as there's still not enough freedom of speech allowed by mods here for my taste and I prefer other NYI boards but I'm on all boards and occasionally like to take the pulse of them. Here has more "delusional" and anti Brooklyn/defending LI when it's over than anywhere else.

The Nets "lost" so much because they have far and away the highest payroll and pay an absurd luxury tax and the owner doesn't mind. That's success. Is the highest payroll not success to you? You wouldn't want NYI to have the highest payroll? (and no luxury tax in NHL) Not saying they will but hopefully you get the point on how great that is for the Nets. NYI lost money on LI with the lowest payroll and the lowest revenue for years. Very weak analogy by you.

As stated this is success - "The Nets are 5th in the league in ticket revenue. Makes being 19th in attendance sort of irrelevant, you see?" Nets are actually 12th in capacity at the corrected 97+% mentioned previously. Comparing a 2 year old team in BK to the Knicks who've been there forever is as silly as comparing NYI to NYR. Nets went from the bottom of the revenue/ticket/merchandise ranks in NJ to among the top in Brooklyn. They are worth $2 billion in Brooklyn which is incredible.

"Surprise surprise, they are selling boxes and suites like mad: "And they've virtually maxed out the prime revenue-generating suite areas. Only two percent of suites were unsold for Nets games this season, down from eight percent in the Nets' debut season in the Barclays Center." So they are selling MORE boxes, not less, since they launched. http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/bro...where-it-count

You are arguing that the move to Brooklyn wasn't franchise-saving for the Nets. That it hasn't transformed the franchise. That merchandise, interest, and ticket sales, which you see are up, will go down because you say they will. That's meaningless analysis rooted in your imagination.

Every data point illustrates that the move has been amazing for the Nets and that their popularity continues to grow as they make inroads into a very competitive market."

When the obvious benefit of the Nets in Brooklyn was established a "Fan" couldn't accept that for NYI and said it doesn't matter because it's a different sport not hockey. So sticking to hockey, NYI's value was $160 million on LI before the Brooklyn move was announced. The value jumped to $195 million immediately just from the move being announced. NYI sold for around $485 million because of it's market in Brooklyn. All these figures are from Forbes. Apparently the new owners think Brooklyn is a great market. That's all that matters.

I predicted NYI would move to Brooklyn 3 months before they did. I predicted NYI would be sold within a year or two before after the move was announced. It just made too much sense financially. I'm predicting Brooklyn will be a success for NYI. Success being more revenue, higher tix prices, avg capacity at 90+% after getting established (higher than NYI for the last 25 years at higher tix prices), more attention, access to more fans leading to a higher payroll and better chance to be competitive in the NHL than they have been on LI for the last 20 years. It's already happening this season because of money spent for Brooklyn. If I'm wrong then NYI leave NY for good. But I'll stick with my track record and the new owner's belief not yours.

 

[Bert Marshall days]

Spot on.

I laugh at the people who say that Nassau can't support a franchise. They can and they have.

Like you say, Hockey is far down on the radar, and any new fans will have joined the Rangers side of things.

Nassau/Long Island residents have a BOATLOAD (how do you like that for quantification) of disposable income. They can and will support whatever and whoever they choose.

They chose NOT to support the Islanders due to 20+ years of being an embarrassment. How can you blame them?

The reality is that when a NY team wins, they fans will pack the stands and pay whatever the prices are. This comment goes across sports, not just limited to hockey.

I'm getting my games in this year as next year my games will be few and far between. Ill leave my tickets for all the hockey fans in Brooklyn who are eagerly awaiting this team..

LOL

Yup, nassau supported NYI so well they were forced to leave. A history of bad attendance since the late 80s after the dynasty long before constant losing and owner neglect (which considering the lack of revenue on LI wasn't as bad by owners as thought), poor attendance during playoff years in the early 2000s, residents voting NO to a new arena, residents re-electing the pols who kicked NYI out. They chose not to support when NYI was competitive or not. Fans who ONLY show up when NYI is fighting for first place are frontrunners. According to below the "fans" lack of interest initially contributed to NYI neglect not vice versa. Thanks for leaving me your tix for next season. I can see why you're laughing. Huh?

You and the other "delusional" types can think what you want. Apparently that eases the pain albeit wrong. I'll listen to the only person's opinion that matters -


A letter from the CEO of the New York Islanders (2011) :

Dear Islander fan:

After investing heavily to purchase this franchise we invested more capital and funds in an effort to resurrect it from the ashes. As a fan you were rewarded with a strong playoff type team that lasted a good six years, (five in seasons where the schedule was played out). Of those five seasons we actually made the playoffs four times and things were looking up for this franchise.

There was one problem during this time however. For whatever the reason you the fan stopped coming to the games. You pretty much stayed home during the regular season. It was because of these five seasons of, for lack of a better word, indifference by you the fan, that we had to rethink and reevaluate how the Islanders were going to proceed into the future.

We've set upon offering deeply discounted tickets for every game.

It is sad however, that even after all these offers, our attendance still lags at the bottom of the league. We fear that our low attendance, in spite of the value of our tickets, will make us seriously consider alternate areas, as a means of relocation when our lease for the Colleseum is over in 2015.


Charles Wang


http://community.msgnetwork.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/55210655/m/297108593

 

[Isles Fan]

Yup, nassau supported NYI so well they were forced to leave. A history of bad attendance since the late 80s after the dynasty long before constant losing and owner neglect (which considering the lack of revenue on LI wasn't as bad by owners as thought), poor attendance during playoff years in the early 2000s, residents voting NO to a new arena, residents re-electing the pols who kicked NYI out. They chose not to support when NYI was competitive or not. Fans who ONLY show up when NYI is fighting for first place are frontrunners. According to below the "fans" lack of interest initially contributed to NYI neglect not vice versa. Thanks for leaving me your tix for next season. I can see why you're laughing. Huh?

You and the other "delusional" types can think what you want. Apparently that eases the pain albeit wrong. I'll listen to the only person's opinion that matters -


A letter from the CEO of the New York Islanders (2011) :

Dear Islander fan:

After investing heavily to purchase this franchise we invested more capital and funds in an effort to resurrect it from the ashes. As a fan you were rewarded with a strong playoff type team that lasted a good six years, (five in seasons where the schedule was played out). Of those five seasons we actually made the playoffs four times and things were looking up for this franchise.

There was one problem during this time however. For whatever the reason you the fan stopped coming to the games. You pretty much stayed home during the regular season. It was because of these five seasons of, for lack of a better word, indifference by you the fan, that we had to rethink and reevaluate how the Islanders were going to proceed into the future.

We've set upon offering deeply discounted tickets for every game.

It is sad however, that even after all these offers, our attendance still lags at the bottom of the league. We fear that our low attendance, in spite of the value of our tickets, will make us seriously consider alternate areas, as a means of relocation when our lease for the Colleseum is over in 2015.


Charles Wang


http://community.msgnetwork.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/55210655/m/297108593

Ummmm....you do realize that was a fictious letter right? If you read the next post by the person who posted it it says:

"As I believe Dikie Dunn stated in Slapshot, "I tried to capture the spirit".

IF Wang were ever to come out and make a statement on the State of the Islanders this is what I would hope he would say. Get to the point and make it with tact. However, I don't think he'd put ANY onus on the fans since its never done in any sport by any owner. Shame too, because if ever there was a crying need to say something along these lines to any fanbase it would be from the mouth of the CEO of the New York Islanders."

http://community.msgnetwork.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/55210655/m/297108593

 

[24diving]

Yup, nassau supported NYI so well they were forced to leave. A history of bad attendance since the late 80s after the dynasty long before constant losing and owner neglect (which considering the lack of revenue on LI wasn't as bad by owners as thought), poor attendance during playoff years in the early 2000s, residents voting NO to a new arena, residents re-electing the pols who kicked NYI out. They chose not to support when NYI was competitive or not. Fans who ONLY show up when NYI is fighting for first place are frontrunners. According to below the "fans" lack of interest initially contributed to NYI neglect not vice versa. Thanks for leaving me your tix for next season. I can see why you're laughing. Huh?

You and the other "delusional" types can think what you want. Apparently that eases the pain albeit wrong. I'll listen to the only person's opinion that matters -


A letter from the CEO of the New York Islanders (2011) :

Dear Islander fan:

After investing heavily to purchase this franchise we invested more capital and funds in an effort to resurrect it from the ashes. As a fan you were rewarded with a strong playoff type team that lasted a good six years, (five in seasons where the schedule was played out). Of those five seasons we actually made the playoffs four times and things were looking up for this franchise.

There was one problem during this time however. For whatever the reason you the fan stopped coming to the games. You pretty much stayed home during the regular season. It was because of these five seasons of, for lack of a better word, indifference by you the fan, that we had to rethink and reevaluate how the Islanders were going to proceed into the future.

We've set upon offering deeply discounted tickets for every game.

It is sad however, that even after all these offers, our attendance still lags at the bottom of the league. We fear that our low attendance, in spite of the value of our tickets, will make us seriously consider alternate areas, as a means of relocation when our lease for the Colleseum is over in 2015.


Charles Wang


http://community.msgnetwork.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/55210655/m/297108593

So the only other person you will listen to is some poster on an MSG message board making up a fictional letter he would hope the owner of the NYI would write. Got it.

 

[MJF]

Yup, nassau supported NYI so well they were forced to leave. A history of bad attendance since the late 80s after the dynasty long before constant losing and owner neglect (which considering the lack of revenue on LI wasn't as bad by owners as thought), poor attendance during playoff years in the early 2000s, residents voting NO to a new arena, residents re-electing the pols who kicked NYI out. They chose not to support when NYI was competitive or not. Fans who ONLY show up when NYI is fighting for first place are frontrunners. According to below the "fans" lack of interest initially contributed to NYI neglect not vice versa. Thanks for leaving me your tix for next season. I can see why you're laughing. Huh?

You and the other "delusional" types can think what you want. Apparently that eases the pain albeit wrong. I'll listen to the only person's opinion that matters -


A letter from the CEO of the New York Islanders (2011) :

Dear Islander fan:

After investing heavily to purchase this franchise we invested more capital and funds in an effort to resurrect it from the ashes. As a fan you were rewarded with a strong playoff type team that lasted a good six years, (five in seasons where the schedule was played out). Of those five seasons we actually made the playoffs four times and things were looking up for this franchise.

There was one problem during this time however. For whatever the reason you the fan stopped coming to the games. You pretty much stayed home during the regular season. It was because of these five seasons of, for lack of a better word, indifference by you the fan, that we had to rethink and reevaluate how the Islanders were going to proceed into the future.

We've set upon offering deeply discounted tickets for every game.

It is sad however, that even after all these offers, our attendance still lags at the bottom of the league. We fear that our low attendance, in spite of the value of our tickets, will make us seriously consider alternate areas, as a means of relocation when our lease for the Colleseum is over in 2015.


Charles Wang


http://community.msgnetwork.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/55210655/m/297108593

I "shutter" to think the letter actually came from anyone who is associated with the Islanders or the "Colleseum".

 

[Bones45]

It's on the Internet!! It's gotta be true!!

I love amping people up as much as the next guy-- (perhaps even moreso) but this thread is laughable.

People just like to argue and debate over the most inane things

 

[The Underboss]

Part of the problem HS, is that to many STH's and longtime committed fans from the east of the coli, the move to Brooklyn isnt much different than moving out of state -- when people who have been going to games for the better part of 40 years 40+ times a year, and can no longer make any weekday games (not just being inconvenienced, not possible) and have a huge hassle going now even on weekends, to them it might as well be out of state. The Islanders have been a part of the Long Island community in many ways over the years, both individually as players, and the organization as a whole, and this is disappearing as well. In the minds of many, this move is as dramatic as leaving the state. I am not one of them, as I will continue for at least the first year being a STH at Barclays, but I can understand their feeling, and telling them to be happy that it could have been worse, doesnt really help IMO. The arguments from the people happy with the move, although logically having merit in regards to the financial stability of the team, seem to lack the understanding or to sound corny, compassion for the people who are feeling like they lost their team. All the arguing here is really kind of pointless -- Everyone on both sides knows that the team will be making more $$ over the next few years in Brooklyn than they would have in Nassau. Some feel that the $ increase is the only reason the team will be able to stay anywhere near local -- which is probably true -- others don't care if the team makes more $, because the team as they know it is gone anyway--Conversely, some feel the fan experience as they know it will get drastically worse -- which is probably true--and others dont care because it wont effect their own personal fan experience negatively. Regardless, the move is happening and all of us are going to deal with it as we want to. The move might be the best thing for the future of the team, or it might be a disaster, we are used to that as fans of the Isles. Its just too bad that there has to be continued arguing over how bad Nassau is/good Brooklyn is vs how bad Brooklyn will be/good Nassau could have been.

I understand some will be disenfranchised, but even those on the east end can still attend games on weekends. It's not like they can't go at all, as if they've moved out of state.

Yes, a lot is changing. Nassau is losing a staple that's been there so long, but honestly what else was Wang and the NYI's to do? County & TOH stood in the way of the LHP. Murray's rescaled plan made it unprofitable. The referendum failed. So what else was Wang to do? Frankly since Wang doesn't own the building, Nassau County should've foot the ENTIRE bill to rebuild a new building. But because of piss poor planning on the county's part and lack of future foresight, the Isles are leaving. It should have never even went to a referendum.

What never made sense was taxes were going up either way (new building or Isles gone), wouldn't people rather have something to show for the tax increase?

 

[stranger34]

I understand some will be disenfranchised, but even those on the east end can still attend games on weekends. It's not like they can't go at all, as if they've moved out of state.

Yes, a lot is changing. Nassau is losing a staple that's been there so long, but honestly what else was Wang and the NYI's to do? County & TOH stood in the way of the LHP. Murray's rescaled plan made it unprofitable. The referendum failed. So what else was Wang to do? Frankly since Wang doesn't own the building, Nassau County should've foot the ENTIRE bill to rebuild a new building. But because of piss poor planning on the county's part and lack of future foresight, the Isles are leaving. It should have never even went to a referendum.

What never made sense was taxes were going up either way (new building or Isles gone), wouldn't people rather have something to show for the tax increase?

wang and mangano did a horrible job explaining the arena referendum to the public and I despise that they even went the referendum route. To me the day they did that was the day the Isles fate was sealed in Nassau.

 

[nyscene]

wang and mangano did a horrible job explaining the arena referendum to the public and I despise that they even went the referendum route. To me the day they did that was the day the Isles fate was sealed in Nassau.

The issue is if they went any other way NIFA would've shot it down.

They just assumed, though, it would pass without issue. No real heavy push to get it approved, all the while the opposition was out spreading misinformation about the vote.

A shame. I'm comfortable with them being in Brooklyn, and will still attend but will miss them being a short 15 minute drive away.

 

[MatthewBarnabysTears]

I understand some will be disenfranchised, but even those on the east end can still attend games on weekends. It's not like they can't go at all, as if they've moved out of state.

Yes, a lot is changing. Nassau is losing a staple that's been there so long, but honestly what else was Wang and the NYI's to do? County & TOH stood in the way of the LHP. Murray's rescaled plan made it unprofitable. The referendum failed. So what else was Wang to do? Frankly since Wang doesn't own the building, Nassau County should've foot the ENTIRE bill to rebuild a new building. But because of piss poor planning on the county's part and lack of future foresight, the Isles are leaving. It should have never even went to a referendum.

What never made sense was taxes were going up either way (new building or Isles gone), wouldn't people rather have something to show for the tax increase?

This is right.

There's a lot of arguments floating around here, including (1) that it's a shame the Isles are leaving Nassau County; (2) that Nassau County is aging/decaying; and (3) that Nassau County may or may not be able to support a major league franchise. In reality, they're all the same issue — the same NIMBY politics that made it impossible to develop what could have been a new economic hub are the same NIMBY politics that have driven young people out of the county and caused stagnation.

I don't want to start a political debate, so I'll phrase things broadly — everyone could presumably agree that development, with reasonable restrictions, is positive and necessary. For decades, significant development in the county has been impossible.

 

[OlTimeHockey]

This is right.

There's a lot of arguments floating around here, including (1) that it's a shame the Isles are leaving Nassau County; (2) that Nassau County is aging/decaying; and (3) that Nassau County may or may not be able to support a major league franchise. In reality, they're all the same issue — the same NIMBY politics that made it impossible to develop what could have been a new economic hub are the same NIMBY politics that have driven young people out of the county and caused stagnation.

I don't want to start a political debate, so I'll phrase things broadly — everyone could presumably agree that development, with reasonable restrictions, is positive and necessary. For decades, significant development in the county has been impossible.

Reasonable restrictions went away with, "YES OR NO."

And then Ratner comes in and has carte blanche because his plans don't affect the schools or the water table or the local businesses in a negative way. I firmly believe Ratner can have more in time, as development is easily welcome in stages that allow homeostasis......the ability of all parties to adapt and adjust and succeed.

Some NIMBY is bad.....but some is necessary. Small business all across the nation has suffered and been allowed to suffer, so we/many see the consequences in our pay checks.

I still maintain growth is not the enemy, or lack thereof. TAXES are.

 

[Abe Vukota]

Reasonable restrictions went away with, "YES OR NO."

And then Ratner comes in and has carte blanche because his plans don't affect the schools or the water table or the local businesses in a negative way. I firmly believe Ratner can have more in time, as development is easily welcome in stages that allow homeostasis......the ability of all parties to adapt and adjust and succeed.

Some NIMBY is bad.....but some is necessary. Small business all across the nation has suffered and been allowed to suffer, so we/many see the consequences in our pay checks.

I still maintain growth is not the enemy, or lack thereof. TAXES are.

Taxes out here are so ludicrously high, but there's a chicken/egg discussion at the root of your post, I think: are taxes high because the population is shrinking, or is the population shrinking because taxes keep going up? I am personally happy to know that we support our cops, firefighters, and teachers with good salaries and good pensions; that's precisely where I want my tax money to go. As for where the rest goes...well, it sounds like politics out here are reminiscent of Boardwalk Empire. Ed Mangano is Schmucky Thompson, Kate Murray is Chunky White.

It seems like Wang's Lighthouse project was way too ambitious and way too grand in scope for most people to get behind, especially since I've not met a Long Islander yet who says, "We really need to turn Uniondale into a center of commerce." It's a really terrible area that I won't so much as drive past once the team leaves (or I need Chipotle and I'm in the area).

I don't want to turn this into a Wang thread, but owning a sports franchise is not a license to print money, and unfortunately for Chuckles, he's also dealing with decades of mismanagement and ineptitude that rival his own mismanagement and ineptitude. In my opinion, he's a sleazy guy who was hoping to turn owning the team into an enormous land grab, and he ultimately got one-upped by richer, potentially sleazier people.

By the way, I was bar hopping by the BC last night and we asked the bartender at The Montrose to turn on the Isles game. He did and someone in the bar said, "Yeah, Islanders!" I whipped my head around expecting to see Islanders cufflinks or a Joe Strummer lookalike. No such luck.