Did Kadri develop because of good Leafs player management/development or despite it?

[StatsNightHeroes]

I can’t think of any leaf in the last 20 years who has flipped how the fan base feels about him more than Kadri. Rich kid, talented, big numbers in junior and never put it together. Now he’s a leader, produces and grinds every night. Good on the staff for helping him get to this point and an even bigger congrats to him for stepping up and becoming even better than most of us thought he’d be. Not to be dramatic, but in lots of ways I see him as the face of the rebuild/new leafs and he’s earned it. Saw the bad years, played on some terrible teams and has grown a lot as a player and is playing a huge role leading the leafs back into the playoffs.

 

[GoldenGOOSE]

I always believed in him and expected him to be this good. He probably lost Lupul's cell number..

 

[Clark4Ever]

Kadri developed slower than expected due to Ron Wilson and Randy Carlyle.

Kadri reached his potential thanks to Babcock.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Cognitive dissonance at its best.

Posts with zero substance that consist of nothing but slapping the wrong labels in the wrong places only serve to make the poster look foolish. Kadri has always been a good player and he just keeps on getting better, get over it.

I gotta admit though, I really didn't see him as a 30-goal guy.

I saw the 60+ points coming but I thought it was going to be mostly assists. Unfortunately his slump earlier in the year kind of made 60 points out of the question at this point but he's most likely hitting 30 goals again. How many people saw Kadri becoming a back-to-back 30 goal scorer?

I never thought about it myself TBH. I've been pretty accurate predicting his point totals over the years but never broke it down into goals/assists. I can't say I'm surprised though.

He was a immature sack of **** early in his career. Still is, on occasion. That's not on the coaching staff, that's on him.

I do think the tough love approach was probably best for Kadri long-term though. If he was coddled like many early in his career I think he may have turned out to be a guy like Mike Ribeiro.

I think it should always be carrot and stick. The trick is how and when to use which one and in what proportions. That's where Carlyle didn't get it right with Kadri whereas Babcock nailed it. Babcock is an awesome coach and I think a lot of people don't appreciate how much he has meant to this team. Some people don't like him but I'd take him over Carlyle any day.

Kadri developed slower than expected due to Ron Wilson and Randy Carlyle.

Kadri reached his potential thanks to Babcock.

Pretty much this. I always thought Kadri would put up points like he's doing now with a better team around him but he's doing so much more than that and I definitely think Babcock deserves some credit for Kadri becoming the player he is today.

 

[Macallan18]

Answering the original post, I'm not sure.
I think Kadri is a huge talent, always thought so. The Leafs have benefitted greatly from his slightly slower progression in their salary cap hit.
Wilson and Carlysle impeded him, no question. Did Babcock speed up his development and put him on the right track? Who knows? Its possible, but there also could have been a maturation process.
All I know is I always thought he would develop to this kind of player, and always knew Leaf management knew that too and would sign him to a long term beneficial contract rather then trade him.
Of course, feel the same way about Gardiner, but don't want to hijack the thread!!

 

[Pookie]

Posts with zero substance that consist of nothing but slapping the wrong labels in the wrong places only serve to make the poster look foolish. Kadri has always been a good player and he just keeps on getting better, get over it.

Cognitive Dissonance is alive and well with you.

He did become a good player. Where have I said otherwise?

You argue with made up constructs and misremembering of facts (how did the Leo carrying Komarov fact finding mission turn out for you?)

A life turnaround story carries “zero substance” with you?

I feel sad when I read your posts.

 

[stickty111]

Remember when Kadri was a role player. That was pretty awesome.

 

[IPS]

Remember when Kadri was a role player. That was pretty awesome.

Or how he's a similar player to Bozak despite vastly outperforming him in every aspect of the game?

 

[thewave]

Or how he's a similar player to Bozak despite vastly outperforming him in every aspect of the game?

And plays nothing like him.

 

[Tak7]

Kadri's progression is quite a complicated curve to follow.

I think constantly being flogged publicly by the Burke / Nonis / Wilson / Carlyle regime - whether it was his defensive game, or his attitude, or lack of real public support from the organization, or the mishandling of his injuries, etc

The thing that definitely changed for him, was his change in mentality - he basically developed this approach where he was going to shove the organization's treating of him down their throats.

Then, Shanahan came over, and perhaps for the first time since he was drafted by the organization, he was challenged by someone who actually saw all the things he could do well, rather than what he couldn't. Obviously, having Babcock come in and completely trust his young center helped, but I think the biggest turning poitn for Naz was the talk he references a few times with Shanahan.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I think, prior to Shanagement, he was heading towards a 3rd line offense-first centre that would have probably been traded within a couple of seasons with the old management group as he wouldn't develop into the player he was supposed to be. From there he could have done well with a change a scenery.

But a new coach and management group changed the culture of the team and basically gave him that change in-house so that he was able to develop properly into his potential. Although I never saw him as a 30 goal scorer - more of a playmaker. Either way it's good to see that the Leafs can develop these players properly.

 

[Iapyi]

I think, prior to Shanagement, he was heading towards a 3rd line offense-first centre that would have probably been traded within a couple of seasons with the old management group as he wouldn't develop into the player he was supposed to be. From there he could have done well with a change a scenery.

But a new coach and management group changed the culture of the team and basically gave him that change in-house so that he was able to develop properly into his potential. Although I never saw him as a 30 goal scorer - more of a playmaker. Either way it's good to see that the Leafs can develop these players properly.

I agree this was a big aspect of it. We disposed of the biggest problem in terms of the culture of the team and I believe this was a gigantic leap forward for the organization. Since then everything has been fresh and exciting and far far far more entertaining including the year we finished last in the league.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

...tbh I still look at this video from time to time.

Burke was too brash for the media circus here. He gave them exactly what they wanted. I love Lou's "you know nothing" approach.

I've never seen that before. He didn't even listen to Murray's offer. What a blowhard.

 

[Morbo]

correct answer is both.

 

[MattySnipes]

I give credit to management but also at the same time to Kadri as well.

They saw what Kadri could be great at and sold him on it. To his credit, he worked his but off getting stronger, working on his shot, etc. Kadri has a great attitude to be great in the NHL because he is fearless. He isn't scared of nothing or no one.

As a young kid, he was always known as a skilled guy with great hands and could always make plays, liked getting under people's skin. To see him take pride in doing the defensive work so well and score 25-30+ goals while still seeing a lot of skill from Naz is FANtastic. It's not like he's become some grinder, don't get it twisted.

As a Top-10 pick you get a lot of unfair expectations put on you to do something significant in a few years. Being a Maple Leafs selection in a time they are 're-tooling' doesn't help. Some are not able to translate their junior dominance into the NHL right away.

Kadri was a victim to this. He had a lot of great moments but made silly plays, was irresponsible in his zone, bad habits like partying with Lupul & Bozak along with coming late to practices doesn't help. But also being surrounded with his cast of players (below-average except #81, bad influence, me-first) and coaches (Wilson, Carlyle) he was bound to fail or go back to AHL.

He had all the skill & talent but the hard work and dedication which is Babcock's bread & butter, disappeared and got replaced with blue & white disease which was so apparent in so many players in our dark days.

No coach likes skilled players that don't work. Kadri would tell you himself of the man he's become over the years. That's partly on Babcock & Shanahan, and partly on Nazem and his family. Kadri respects management & coaching and we've been seeing the dividends the last several years on the ice & off the ice.

Now I just enjoy the YouTube video of Burkie talking to Sens' GM Murray about the first round picks in 2009 on the floor.

BM: Well....I'd love to...—

(cuts off Murray)

BB: "Kadri — Is that the kid you want?
BM: (stuttering) Uhhhhmm yah —

(cuts off Murray mid agreement)

BB: YAH, well were taking him!!
BM: Ok
BB: Ok thanks.

Sens end up taking Jared Cowan

 

[Daisy Jane]

He was a immature sack of **** early in his career. Still is, on occasion. That's not on the coaching staff, that's on him.

I do think the tough love approach was probably best for Kadri long-term though. If he was coddled like many early in his career I think he may have turned out to be a guy like Mike Ribeiro.

yeup. pretty much.

 

[Morbo]

I give credit to management but also at the same time to Kadri as well.

They saw what Kadri could be great at and sold him on it. To his credit, he worked his but off getting stronger, working on his shot, etc. Kadri has a great attitude to be great in the NHL because he is fearless. He isn't scared of nothing or no one.

As a young kid, he was always known as a skilled guy with great hands and could always make plays, liked getting under people's skin. To see him take pride in doing the defensive work so well and score 25-30+ goals while still seeing a lot of skill from Naz is FANtastic. It's not like he's become some grinder, don't get it twisted.

As a Top-10 pick you get a lot of unfair expectations put on you to do something significant in a few years. Being a Maple Leafs selection in a time they are 're-tooling' doesn't help. Some are not able to translate their junior dominance into the NHL right away.

Kadri was a victim to this. He had a lot of great moments but made silly plays, was irresponsible in his zone, bad habits like partying with Lupul & Bozak along with coming late to practices doesn't help. But also being surrounded with his cast of players (below-average except #81, bad influence, me-first) and coaches (Wilson, Carlyle) he was bound to fail or go back to AHL.

He had all the skill & talent but the hard work and dedication which is Babcock's bread & butter, disappeared and got replaced with blue & white disease which was so apparent in so many players in our dark days.

No coach likes skilled players that don't work. Kadri would tell you himself of the man he's become over the years. That's partly on Babcock & Shanahan, and partly on Nazem and his family. Kadri respects management & coaching and we've been seeing the dividends the last several years on the ice & off the ice.

Now I just enjoy the YouTube video of Burkie talking to Sens' GM Murray about the first round picks in 2009 on the floor.

BM: Well....I'd love to...—

(cuts off Murray)

BB: "Kadri — Is that the kid you want?
BM: (stuttering) Uhhhhmm yah —

(cuts off Murray mid agreement)

BB: YAH, well were taking him!!
BM: Ok
BB: Ok thanks.

Sens end up taking Jared Cowan

The best part of that though, albeit lost to the server change, was hf sensfans trying to convince themselves that Murray had actually duped Burke.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Cognitive Dissonance is alive and well with you.

He did become a good player. Where have I said otherwise?

You argue with made up constructs and misremembering of facts (how did the Leo carrying Komarov fact finding mission turn out for you?)

A life turnaround story carries “zero substance” with you?

I feel sad when I read your posts.

Not sure why you're responding to my post and raising subjects I didn't even mention. You keep tossing around this cognitive dissonance term when it doesn't even look like you know what post you're responding to. Maybe you need to get some sleep or something.

Kadri's progression is quite a complicated curve to follow.

I think constantly being flogged publicly by the Burke / Nonis / Wilson / Carlyle regime - whether it was his defensive game, or his attitude, or lack of real public support from the organization, or the mishandling of his injuries, etc

The thing that definitely changed for him, was his change in mentality - he basically developed this approach where he was going to shove the organization's treating of him down their throats.

Then, Shanahan came over, and perhaps for the first time since he was drafted by the organization, he was challenged by someone who actually saw all the things he could do well, rather than what he couldn't. Obviously, having Babcock come in and completely trust his young center helped, but I think the biggest turning poitn for Naz was the talk he references a few times with Shanahan.

I think you nailed it and this covers 95% of it - trust it the main issue and when you're constantly being flogged publicly, it's impossible to develop that trust. Shanahan was honest with Kadri, treated him like a man and that's really all it took. The fact that Kadri was already such a good player despite the way he was treated by previous regimes is a testament to his character - toughness and preserverence are qualities he has in spades.

 

[Pookie]

Not sure why you're responding to my post and raising subjects I didn't even mention. You keep tossing around this cognitive dissonance term when it doesn't even look like you know what post you're responding to. Maybe you need to get some sleep or something.



I think you nailed it and this covers 95% of it - trust it the main issue and when you're constantly being flogged publicly, it's impossible to develop that trust. Shanahan was honest with Kadri, treated him like a man and that's really all it took. The fact that Kadri was already such a good player despite the way he was treated by previous regimes is a testament to his character - toughness and preserverence are qualities he has in spades.

Honest as in stop what you are doing off ice or you won’t be in the NHL.

Sad that your desire to be right undermines the acknowledgement of an actual life change that resulted in what we see today. The good news is that many people in this thread have acknowledged what you have tried to minimize.

Honestly, I’m sad for you.

 

[firstemperor]

Personally, I think all of Rielly, Kadri, JVR, never developed to their fullest capabilities under Carlysle/Wilson.

Particularly JVR, he's never fostered any level of compete in his career but his talent/skill level and in the past (prior to these last couple of years), his skating at his size was top-notch. He could have lived up to his draft status easily but he needed help internally. I think of how soft Wheeler was in Boston and there's no reason JVR couldn't have had a similar trajectory but in the end, their peaks aren't really all that close. I should say, I don't think JVR is particularly soft in the sense I expect him to be bulldozing players left and right with his size, but his motor and willingness to play a committed 200-foot game, be active in shooting/passing lanes, etc leaves a lot to be desired. His skillset is pretty rare, I've seen JVR drop his shoulder and drive the net and generate high-quality scoring chances without much to work with...and it's clear he can do that with some odd semblance of frequency...the caveat is I've only seen him do it sparingly (i.e. when he gets called out by Babcock in the media indirectly- last season's King's game was a revelation, in particular).

I think Kadri and Rielly would have been good players on a lot of teams despite their own shortcomings. Babcock helped both tremendously, particularly Kadri, but I think Kadri always had the work ethic and competitiveness to rise above at some point. Rielly's talent was just too overwhelming to deny, I think if he didn't injure his knee and miss most of his draft season, he probably goes top 2-3

Gardiner is a tougher call.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I've never seen that before. He didn't even listen to Murray's offer. What a blowhard.

Murray must have assumed there was no reason to say what he would offer since Burke said they were selecting Kadri.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Murray must have assumed there was no reason to say what he would offer since Burke said they were selecting Kadri.

I guess but I think Murray had earned a little more respect than that dismissive tone. I'm not a negotiator, I say it up front. I hate confrontation and I find the whole male domination thing amusing and unpalatable. It typically results in me not making deals with people. It never results in me making bad deals. I don't see that as my loss, I move on to the next possibility. It's their loss for being a douche. Brian Burke almost certainly belongs in that category.

 

[mapleleaf979]

Kadri developed slower than expected due to Ron Wilson and Randy Carlyle.

Kadri reached his potential thanks to Babcock.

Wrong. Kadri changed his ways after getting suspended by Shanahan. The message was grow up or ur not playing for the Maple Leafs. He was immature, played for show at times and not a team game, showed up late to team meetings. It was this hard line approach under the Shanahan regime that forced him to change or move on. They put the ball in his court and he has responded very well. Mark Hunter stood up for Kadri in a big way.

 

[PuckMagi]

I will give credit to Babcock where credit is due. It was a great decision to turn Kadri into a matchup guy and Kadri is really excelling in this role. He's putting up great offensive numbers while handling the tough assignments very well.

 

[TakeTheBody]

Kadri developed because he finally grew up and didn't waste his career away. Credit whoever you like. But most of it comes from within.