Confirmed with Link: Devils Trade Henrik Tallinder to Buffalo for Riley Boychuk

Brodeur

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
26,153
15,832
San Diego
I don't know what you're talking about. Larsson still is the new hotness.

I got the Larsson jersey on opening night 2011. That game against LA was in late October, so I had that extra bit of undeserved ego in being the only person with it. "Impressed" a couple other Devils fans who were waiting with me by the Devils bench in warmups. The other thing I remember from that game was how much Larry Robinson was hamming it up with some toddler during warmups, while Oates/PDB were all business. Dawned on me later that it very well could have been Larry's grandkid.

I also remember that game being very slow. My buddy (sitting elsewhere) texted me right before the first period ended "there's been like five combined shots and now they're playing Third Eye Blind over the PA. This is unacceptable."

[/coolstorybro]
 

CerebralGenesis

Registered User
Jul 23, 2009
24,429
2
The issue with me is that you shouldn't be giving away your #3 defenseman with a good cap hit for nothing. With Larsson and possibly Urbom or Gelinas, it's possible Tallinder would have found himself more towards the bottom of the depth chart next season, but we don't know that for sure.

I guess the real issue is that Tallinder's injury issues (and his box scores) the last few years have substantially hurt his reputation, despite being a very solid defenseman when he's been healthy.

I sorta agree. It would have been nice to get anything of value back for him but alas... Hopefully lou can flip some of our D prospects for something down the road cause we are loaded.

I got the Larsson jersey on opening night 2011. That game against LA was in late October, so I had that extra bit of undeserved ego in being the only person with it. "Impressed" a couple other Devils fans who were waiting with me by the Devils bench in warmups. The other thing I remember from that game was how much Larry Robinson was hamming it up with some toddler during warmups, while Oates/PDB were all business. Dawned on me later that it very well could have been Larry's grandkid.

I also remember that game being very slow. My buddy (sitting elsewhere) texted me right before the first period ended "there's been like five combined shots and now they're playing Third Eye Blind over the PA. This is unacceptable."

[/coolstorybro]

cool story bro

no but I was sporting my Henrique jersey around last year and found it interesting that no one here in Pitt knew who he was. "No we do not have a mexican on the team."
 

kiwidevil

____________________
Mar 10, 2008
8,366
375
How many games has Tallinder been anything better than a #4 or probably not even NHL level? His bad times far outweigh the good.

Calling Tallinder a #3 based on his short time of good play is like saying Tedenby is a 1st line wing.
 

Hockey Sports Fan

Registered Loser
Sponsor
Jun 30, 2010
10,702
4,214
Connecticut
How many games has Tallinder been anything better than a #4 or probably not even NHL level? His bad times far outweigh the good.

Calling Tallinder a #3 based on his short time of good play is like saying Tedenby is a 1st line wing.

Nah sorry, that's an awful comparison and you didn't even back it up with anything. Maybe Clarkson would've been better for whatever you're trying to say.

Tallinder may not have passed the eye test very often, but any average #3 defenseman that lacks any sort of elite skill is going to have stretches where he looks bad. Doesn't change the fact that, more often than not, he's an effective defenseman at moving play from the defensive zone to the offensive zone. What more can you ask from a second-pairing, shutdown kinda guy?
 

Bleedred

Travis Green BLOWS! Bring back Nasreddine!
Sponsor
May 1, 2011
130,725
58,377
I actually thought Tallinder was very good this last year. Aside from a 3 game stretch where he made Volchenkov look competent. I really wanted him gone after that, but it was right after he was put back in the lineup after being a healthy scratch.

After that stretch in February, I never really had another complaint with him though, and was disgusted how he was benched in favor of Volchenkov a few times.:banghead:
 

Hockey Sports Fan

Registered Loser
Sponsor
Jun 30, 2010
10,702
4,214
Connecticut
Though he only played 25 games this year, Tallinder's minutes were substantially easier than last year's. That probably had something to do with making him look more competent.
 

Bleedred

Travis Green BLOWS! Bring back Nasreddine!
Sponsor
May 1, 2011
130,725
58,377
Though he only played 25 games this year, Tallinder's minutes were substantially easier than last year's. That probably had something to do with making him look more competent.

I'd still take him over either Volchenkov and Salvador.
 

Bleedred

Travis Green BLOWS! Bring back Nasreddine!
Sponsor
May 1, 2011
130,725
58,377
Absolutely. :nod:

If all Tallinder got was Boychuk, imagine what we'd have to give up for someone to take Volchenkov off our hands?

Probably a first rounder to take Volchenkov off our hands. That's what we'd probably have to give up. I'm sure most of the league knows he's barely serviceable now.
 

kiwidevil

____________________
Mar 10, 2008
8,366
375
Tallinder spent a lot of his time here barely looking like a NHL dman.

He would have bought back more than basically "future considerations" if any GM thought otherwise. Especially with only one year left. There are plenty of teams looking for your so called "#3" dman.
 

Hockey Sports Fan

Registered Loser
Sponsor
Jun 30, 2010
10,702
4,214
Connecticut
Tallinder spent a lot of his time here barely looking like a NHL dman.

He would have bought back more than basically "future considerations" if any GM thought otherwise. Especially with only one year left. There are plenty of teams looking for your so called "#3" dman.

I don't care how a defenseman "looks," I care about results. And at this point, I've learned not to trust a lot of GMs to determine who's valuable and who isn't. Not when Clarkson is getting a 7 year deal, not when a cup-winning GM traded FOR Robyn Regehr and re-signed him despite being an anchor for his best defenseman, and not when Mike Gillis is widely considered by his fanbase to be the worst GM in sports after winning GM of the year in 2011. Also, Paul Holmgren. Also, Steve Tambellini.

Just 'cause GMs don't want Tallinder on a 1-year deal doesn't make him a bad player. How many GMs passes on Thomas Hickey only to watch him become a #3/#4 defenseman on a playoff team?
 

kiwidevil

____________________
Mar 10, 2008
8,366
375
I am trying to understand this Corsi stuff for the first time.

Last year didn't Tallinder face the easiest competition, while Volchenkov faced the hardest?

Seriously help me out with this would like to at least have an understanding of it.
 

Bleedred

Travis Green BLOWS! Bring back Nasreddine!
Sponsor
May 1, 2011
130,725
58,377
I don't think Volchenkov faced the hardest, I think he faced the bottom lines. At least at even strength. Hasn't it been noted that he's faced the worst competition since joining? I remember talking about it last Summer.

I would bet Greene faced the toughest.
 

Hockey Sports Fan

Registered Loser
Sponsor
Jun 30, 2010
10,702
4,214
Connecticut
I am trying to understand this Corsi stuff for the first time.

Last year didn't Tallinder face the easiest competition, while Volchenkov faced the hardest?

Seriously help me out with this would like to at least have an understanding of it.

(possible wall of text incoming, sorry in advance :))

Yeah, last year Tallinder had relatively easy minutes, but he also performed very well in those minutes. It was a shortended season and he was injured and out of the lineup often (another reason his value is probably way lower than I'd think), so I didn't want to use that as an example of his true talent (it certainly counts, though). In general, I feel like last season is a bit of a throwaway since lots of D were in an out of the lineup often.

I'll try not to get too carried away, but "corsi" in general is like +/-, except with shot attempts (goals + shots on goal + shots blocked + missed shots) instead of goals, and only at even strength. So when a guy has a corsi number of say, 20, that means when he was on the ice at even strength, his team directed 20 more shot attempts at the opponent's net than the opponent's shot at his own net. It doesn't say anything about the quality of those shot attempts, but it works as an indicator of puck possession, since you need to have the puck in order to try and shoot it. So the higher corsi number a player has, the more time he team spends with the puck when he's on the ice. It's been proven to be more effective at predicting future success than points or many statistics involving goals, since goals and scoring are driven heavily by shooting percentage, which can fluctuate pretty highly from season to season.

"Corsi rel" just means relative corsi, which tells how many more (or less) shots the team attempted with that player on the ice, compared to how many shots the team attempts overall. So it's an indication of whether the team does better or worse than the team-wide shot attempt average when a player is on the ice at even strength. High is good, low is technically bad, but like all stats, depends on context.

To help with context, other ratings were developed to try and determine whether a player was generally playing difficult or easy minutes. Corsi QoC is simply the average corsi number of all the opponent skaters that the player in question was on the ice against. So a higher number means that the player in question was on the ice (at even strength) against better possession players of other teams. Zone starts are also taken into account, because it's more difficult to start in the defensive zone than the offensive zone. There's also corsi QoT, which is like QoC except it measures the corsi of a player's teammates, to try and see how much help he may have gotten from his team.

So now, if you look at this page: http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67#

Tallinder has the highest corsi rel on the team, which means the Devils outshot their opponents most heavily whenever Tallinder was on the ice. However, his corsi QoC and corsi rel QoC are both negative, which means he was generally out against poor possession players, making his good corsi a little less meaningful. On top of that, he started in the offensive zone 55.8% of the time (this stat doesn't include neutral zone draws), which was only behind Harrold and Zidlicky, so it's safe to say that overall he had pretty easy minutes.

Volchenkov's corsi rel QoC was also negative, so even though his regular corsi QoC was positive, the skaters he played against tended to play worse than the rest of their team. Volchenkov also started more often in the offensive zone than the defensive zone, and although his corsi rel isn't negative, it still isn't great considering his minutes were also easy. In general, if a player is playing easy minutes, you want to see that he's playing great in those minutes, instead of just treading water.



I hope that was at least a little bit helpful, if not there's a lot of really helpful articles I can dig up explaining possession stats and why they can be useful. Sometimes you'll also see corsi and fenwick (fenwick is the same thing as corsi, except it doesn't count blocked shots as shot attempts since blocking shots can be considered a positive skill) listed as a percentage, so a corsi-for percentage (CF%) of 55%, for example, is telling you that the team directs a majority of all shot attempts at the opponent's net, instead of allowing them. Please ask questions if you have them, I have no idea if I did a good job explaining this stuff or not.
 

Hockey Sports Fan

Registered Loser
Sponsor
Jun 30, 2010
10,702
4,214
Connecticut
I don't think Volchenkov faced the hardest, I think he faced the bottom lines. At least at even strength. Hasn't it been noted that he's faced the worst competition since joining? I remember talking about it last Summer.

I would bet Greene faced the toughest.

Fayne and Salvador actually appeared to have the toughest minutes last year, but Greene would be right behind them. But in general, I think the results are pretty wonky across the league last season thanks to the shortened and condensed schedule.
 

manilaNJ

Optimism: Unwavering
Mar 5, 2012
6,267
127
New Jersey
I love http://www.nicetimeonice.com/ for the game by game stuff. The resources are plentiful.

The Shift Chart, Head to Head, and Fenwick/Corsi links are the best way to dig in deep to dissect a player within an individual game.

The Super Shot Search is just a lot of fun to play around with... especially when you're trying to figure out exactly why the offense dried up despite the possession numbers.
 

kiwidevil

____________________
Mar 10, 2008
8,366
375
Cheers mate,

I had looked at the numbers and figured I had it right and your explanation confirmed it. Have bookmarked your post for future reference.

Thanks heaps.
 

Hockey Sports Fan

Registered Loser
Sponsor
Jun 30, 2010
10,702
4,214
Connecticut
I love http://www.nicetimeonice.com/ for the game by game stuff. The resources are plentiful.

The Shift Chart, Head to Head, and Fenwick/Corsi links are the best way to dig in deep to dissect a player within an individual game.

The Super Shot Search is just a lot of fun to play around with... especially when you're trying to figure out exactly why the offense dried up despite the possession numbers.

stats.hockeyanalysis.com is another one. You could go crazy looking through all the **** this dude puts together, like how Volchenkov somehow puts more pucks on net per 60 minutes of ice time than any other defenseman we've had on the team for the past 3 years, followed by Fayne. Also Bryce Salvador hasn't scored an even strength goal in the regular season since March of 2010.

A lot of these numbers don't look good for Larsson do they?

Not last season, that's for sure. But again, I feel like last year was such a cluster**** (especially involving Larsson) that I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in those numbers.
 

Hockey Sports Fan

Registered Loser
Sponsor
Jun 30, 2010
10,702
4,214
Connecticut
Not at all.

Say we are taking a quick glance, Corsi Rel Qoc is basically an overall grade isn't it?

No, because that's only showing the relative corsi of a player's opponents. It doesn't say anything about a player's own puck possession ability, which probably took me way too long to figure out. It'd be a lot easier if some of this stuff had more intuitive names.
 

manilaNJ

Optimism: Unwavering
Mar 5, 2012
6,267
127
New Jersey
stats.hockeyanalysis.com is another one. You could go crazy looking through all the **** this dude puts together, like how Volchenkov somehow puts more pucks on net per 60 minutes of ice time than any other defenseman we've had on the team for the past 3 years, followed by Fayne. Also Bryce Salvador hasn't scored an even strength goal in the regular season since March of 2010.

That's another favorite of mine, moreso for the overall picture than anything else.
It was rather depressing to go to visit this season when we seemingly defied all statistics :(
That's when I started looking more into one game sample sizes.

I'm enjoying the work this guy has been putting into WoWY (I even follow him on twitter :laugh:) -- I think once people wrap their heads around corsi, that'll be the new stat to embrace. The charts can still be a little bit convoluted when it comes to teams/players you don't follow closely, though.
 

Bleedred

Travis Green BLOWS! Bring back Nasreddine!
Sponsor
May 1, 2011
130,725
58,377
I'm not surprised that Salvador got the toughest competition actually. It might explain why he had a poor season. If given less minutes, and weaker competition then he would probably be solid.
 

Hockey Sports Fan

Registered Loser
Sponsor
Jun 30, 2010
10,702
4,214
Connecticut
That's another favorite of mine, moreso for the overall picture than anything else.
It was rather depressing to go to visit this season when we seemingly defied all statistics :(
That's when I started looking more into one game sample sizes.

I'm enjoying the work this guy has been putting into WoWY (I even follow him on twitter :laugh:) -- I think once people wrap their heads around corsi, that'll be the new stat to embrace. The charts can still be a little bit convoluted when it comes to teams/players you don't follow closely, though.

How do you find the WoWY stuff on the site? I haven't been able to figure it out and I was really curious what it would tell us about Larsson and Josefson, and Zajac, to an extent.

I'm not surprised that Salvador got the toughest competition actually. It might explain why he had a poor season. If given less minutes, and weaker competition then he would probably be solid.

Yeah that's a great point. Almost hard to believe he was relied on so heavily throughout the whole rotating D situation. I wonder how much of that had to do with the "C" on his chest?
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad