Devils Team Discussion (current team/player news and notes) ‎PART XII

[lachyrm]

Again, don't you have to first determine that scoring remained flat from regular to postseason in the era you're determining that scoring the same in regular and postseason isn't a better performance?

If most players score significantly less (or significantly more, even) in the postseason, and a player maintains their scoring pace, that's a plus for the one who maintained his pace.

Simply saying the scoring pace was flat from regular and postseason is meaningless.

 

[Missionhockey]

Camm has played in 32 playoff games. not enough sample size IMO.

Why not? 32 playoff games are at least four and a half playoff series.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Why not? 32 playoff games are at least four and a half playoff series.

thats ~2 months worth of regular season games.

you can draw definitive conclusions on a player based on 2 months?

 

[devilsblood]

Im sure guys can go cold some months or years without getting any big game goals. It'd be like anything else. Guys can go cold scoring in general.

Well that then brings in the question of: Is it actual clutchness or is it just your standard hot and cold swings that makes a guy "appear" clutch at times and a choker at others?

 

[JimEIV]

Averages between regular season and playoffs are meaningless...

You know it is an instances, a moment and some people seem to be able to capture that moment better than others. Some people can slow things down, dismiss the magnitude and see it all. Some people call it Zen, some people call it staying in the moment...Whatever you call it it is a skill.

I don't know how anyone who has ever played a sport at ANY level could not recognize this...We all have encountered people who have a knack at coming up big in critical situations... they seem to always elevate their performance in certain situations or are able to be unaffected by the magnitude of the circumstances ...They seem to be in that position regularly, they find themselves open and they seem to make it happen. It only needs to happen a few times before it is beyond a coincidence.

All you need to do is watch the Olympics; how many times do you have to see the absolute best performance of an athletes life in that one defining moment on a world stage to believe there is such thing as "clutch"...It plays itself out time and time again at the Olympics.

Being a competitive archer for a few years I know unequivocally that there are just some shooters who can make that one shot when everything is riding on it and there are many more who just can't.

 

[StnTwnDevil]

Averages between regular season and playoffs are meaningless...

You know it is an instances, a moment and some people seem to be able to capture that moment better than others. Some people can slow things down, dismiss the magnitude and see it all. Some people call it Zen, some people call it staying in the moment...Whatever you call it it is a skill.

I don't know how anyone who has ever played a sport at ANY level could not recognize this...We all have encountered people who have a knack at coming up big in critical situations... they seem to always elevate their performance in certain situations or are able to be unaffected by the magnitude of the circumstances ...They seem to be in that position regularly, they find themselves open and they seem to make it happen. It only needs to happen a few times before it is beyond a coincidence.

All you need to do is watch the Olympics; how many times do you have to see the absolute best performance of an athletes life in that one defining moment on a world stage to believe there is such thing as "clutch"...It plays itself out time and time again at the Olympics.

Being a competitive archer for a few years I know unequivocally know that there are just some shooters who can make that one shot when everything is riding on it and there are many more who just can't.

Yes,

To add to that, I don't know about everyone here, but similar to the Regular season, I wouldn't call all goals in the playoffs clutch. More pressure is felt in general in the playoffs, but though that 1st period playoff goal has more pressure than any reg season 1st period goal, it still is not the same as the escalating pressure felt in a tied playoff game in the 3rd period. As I keep saying, its mostly situational. All Playoffs vs Regular season stats will tell you is if a player is a better performer in the playoffs or the regular season. I guess you can then break it down into: is the player more clutch in the playoffs or the reg season?

 

[devilsblood]

Welp how bout GW goals scored in 3rd period and OT?

Add in game tieing goals in the 3rd period as well?

 

[devilsblood]

And I am a believer of the clutch player. But it is odd that we don't see significant jumps in playoff performance from guys that we automatically consider clutch player.

Claude for instance. How much is it him really being a Clutch player? Or was he just really hot in a couple different playoff runs while being relatively cold during others?

 

[Missionhockey]

thats ~2 months worth of regular season games.

you can draw definitive conclusions on a player based on 2 months?

I think you might have to evaluate different when it comes to the playoffs. 32 games could be stretched over several years. Look at the Devils. How many one and done series did they have pre-Kovalchuk.

 

[JimEIV]

Let's just be honest what this conversation is really about: It stats people attempting to abolish such superlatives as grit, determination and character...They can't measure it therefore it doesn't or shouldn't count. Another dumb thought from baseball (in baseball it maybe true) that has permeated other sports.

But anyone who has ever been involved in with a team knows these things are very real and values them.

 

[Richer's Ghost]

Playoffs means you're only playing against the best teams as the "easy" teams have been knocked out. Everyone elevates their efforts, the pressure is on, and just being able to maintain your regular season production rates is "clutch" enough for me.

The autopsy on first round exits usually shows that our top 2 or 3 players that scored the most points in the regular season went silent and failed to put up any points after being "shut down" by a good game plan by the opponents. Best of 7 series are tad bit different in strategy than a passing game in the regular season imo.

For someone like Claude Lemieux to have maintained his production and in some series have gone over it (Philly always pops into my head with him blowing a slapper past Hextall) seems the best example for "clutch" you can come up with. I seem to remember a net mouth scramble in the final 2 seconds where he gave us life to get into OT and go on to win in '94 or '95. Scoring when you HAVE to or you lose - maybe that's another aspect of clutch that goes beyond PPG career metrics. 1994-95 his regular season vs. playoffs tell me he was certainly clutch that year. 6 goals in 45 regular season games then 13 in 20 playoff games? Call it what you want, I just love seeing it when it happens.

 

[devilsblood]

Let's just be honest what this conversation is really about: It stats people attempting to abolish such superlatives as grit, determination and character...They can't measure it therefore it doesn't or shouldn't count. Another dumb thought from baseball (in baseball it maybe true) that has permeated other sports.

But anyone who has ever been involved in with a team knows these things are very real and values them.

Quick someone post a pick of little gio.

 

[tailfins]

I can't believe the competitive athletes in this thread are arguing for "clutchness". Perhaps that's why none of us ever made it to prime time?

I felt pressure to perform at every level as a competitive athlete. Almost every game had pressure moments. Sometimes I succeeded, and sometimes I failed. My inability to perform in pressure moments is one reason I never rose higher in my sport.

We're talking about elite athletes. These guys have all been through tons of pressure moments. The idea that NHL players "shrink" under pressure is crazy. If they did that, they'd have never made the NHL.

 

[devilsblood]

Playoffs means you're only playing against the best teams as the "easy" teams have been knocked out. Everyone elevates their efforts, the pressure is on, and just being able to maintain your regular season production rates is "clutch" enough for me.

The autopsy on first round exits usually shows that our top 2 or 3 players that scored the most points in the regular season went silent and failed to put up any points after being "shut down" by a good game plan by the opponents. Best of 7 series are tad bit different in strategy than a passing game in the regular season imo.

For someone like Claude Lemieux to have maintained his production and in some series have gone over it (Philly always pops into my head with him blowing a slapper past Hextall) seems the best example for "clutch" you can come up with. I seem to remember a net mouth scramble in the final 2 seconds where he gave us life to get into OT and go on to win in '94 or '95. Scoring when you HAVE to or you lose - maybe that's another aspect of clutch that goes beyond PPG career metrics. 1994-95 his regular season vs. playoffs tell me he was certainly clutch that year. 6 goals in 45 regular season games then 13 in 20 playoff games? Call it what you want, I just love seeing it when it happens.

Well this is something I'm trying to get at. Can a guy be clutch at times but not at others? Wouldn't a clutch player always be clutch?

Or:

If a guy was extremely clutch in 2 playoff runs, but non existant in 4 others, is he a clutch player?

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I think certain plays can be "clutch"

but I don't think players can be "clutch" over the majority of their careers. that is to say, any better than they performed regularly, for the most part.

 

[StnTwnDevil]

they count the same. if you would've scored that run in the first, you wouldn't need it in the 9th. True or false?

why do you consistently bring up the fact that you played sports? the fact that you did has no bearing on whether or not you know more than me (or other people) on a specific topic.

We are not talking about just a goal. You are totally taking the human element out of the equation. We are talking about a moment/situation where a player is under significant pressure and they are able to find a way to get that goal. The situation has a mental effect on each player and what we are judging is the player under this stress. The goal is the constant in this equation here, the variables are the player and the situation. We obviously are not analyzing the constant.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

We are not talking about just a goal. You are totally taking the human element out of the equation. We are talking about a moment/situation where a player is under significant pressure and they are able to find a way to get that goal. The situation has a mental effect on each player and what we are judging is the player under this stress. The goal is the constant in this equation here, the variables are the player and the situation. We obviously are not analyzing the constant.

as someone else mentioned, playing professional sports is ALWAYS a pressure situation. if they couldn't handle pressure whatsoever, they likely would have never succeeded to begin with

 

[devilsblood]

I can't believe the competitive athletes in this thread are arguing for "clutchness". Perhaps that's why none of us ever made it to prime time?

I felt pressure to perform at every level as a competitive athlete. Almost every game had pressure moments. Sometimes I succeeded, and sometimes I failed. My inability to perform in pressure moments is one reason I never rose higher in my sport.

We're talking about elite athletes. These guys have all been through tons of pressure moments. The idea that NHL players "shrink" under pressure is crazy. If they did that, they'd have never made the NHL.

as someone else mentioned, playing professional sports is ALWAYS a pressure situation. if they couldn't handle pressure whatsoever, they likely would have never succeeded to begin with

But there are different levels of pressure.

I think a basic premise of the clutch argument is: The more mental fortitude a player has, the more clutch he will be.

So unless we say that there is no varying degree of mental fortitude between players, then there should be guys more able to step up in certain instances.

 

[The 29th Pick]

yeah and clutch isnt only about scoring goals, its making big saves, its making big hits, blocking shots
Scott Stevens hitting in the playoffs was awesome

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Scott STevens was a defenseman. of course we wouldn't look at his point totals when evaluating if he was "clutch"

 

[devilsblood]

I was going to bring up Stevens too, and the effect that his hits had on opposing teams. Now obviously that played a roll in the regular season as well. But the hit on Kozlov, and the gestures of intimidation that followed? And the effect that the intimidation had on the Wings after that point? Relevant to this discussion imo.

 

[Feed Me A Stray Cat]

Averages between regular season and playoffs are meaningless...

You know it is an instances, a moment and some people seem to be able to capture that moment better than others. Some people can slow things down, dismiss the magnitude and see it all. Some people call it Zen, some people call it staying in the moment...Whatever you call it it is a skill.

I don't know how anyone who has ever played a sport at ANY level could not recognize this...We all have encountered people who have a knack at coming up big in critical situations... they seem to always elevate their performance in certain situations or are able to be unaffected by the magnitude of the circumstances ...They seem to be in that position regularly, they find themselves open and they seem to make it happen. It only needs to happen a few times before it is beyond a coincidence.

All you need to do is watch the Olympics; how many times do you have to see the absolute best performance of an athletes life in that one defining moment on a world stage to believe there is such thing as "clutch"...It plays itself out time and time again at the Olympics.

Being a competitive archer for a few years I know unequivocally that there are just some shooters who can make that one shot when everything is riding on it and there are many more who just can't.

Assume for a second that there is no such thing as clutch ability.

Would players still score goals in "clutch" situations? And would odds dictate that a handful of players will score a bit more in these situations will others would score a bit less? Yes, they would.

The problem is that people forget that the big stage - playoffs, olympics, etc. - is still full of the same random events that occur during the regular season. As a result, people will look at a random event and then craft a narrative about it that doesn't necessarily exist.

It's story telling. Adam Henrique is not a clutch player because he happened to be near the goal line to tap the puck over against the Rangers.

 

[Feed Me A Stray Cat]

Playoffs means you're only playing against the best teams as the "easy" teams have been knocked out. Everyone elevates their efforts, the pressure is on, and just being able to maintain your regular season production rates is "clutch" enough for me.

The autopsy on first round exits usually shows that our top 2 or 3 players that scored the most points in the regular season went silent and failed to put up any points after being "shut down" by a good game plan by the opponents. Best of 7 series are tad bit different in strategy than a passing game in the regular season imo.

For someone like Claude Lemieux to have maintained his production and in some series have gone over it (Philly always pops into my head with him blowing a slapper past Hextall) seems the best example for "clutch" you can come up with. I seem to remember a net mouth scramble in the final 2 seconds where he gave us life to get into OT and go on to win in '94 or '95. Scoring when you HAVE to or you lose - maybe that's another aspect of clutch that goes beyond PPG career metrics. 1994-95 his regular season vs. playoffs tell me he was certainly clutch that year. 6 goals in 45 regular season games then 13 in 20 playoff games? Call it what you want, I just love seeing it when it happens.

Is a top player going silent for 4-7 games in the first round a signal of him choking, though? How do you know it's any different than a normal 4-7 game cold streak.

 

[StnTwnDevil]

For someone like Claude Lemieux to have maintained his production and in some series have gone over it (Philly always pops into my head with him blowing a slapper past Hextall) seems the best example for "clutch" you can come up with. I seem to remember a net mouth scramble in the final 2 seconds where he gave us life to get into OT and go on to win in '94 or '95. Scoring when you HAVE to or you lose - maybe that's another aspect of clutch that goes beyond PPG career metrics. 1994-95 his regular season vs. playoffs tell me he was certainly clutch that year. 6 goals in 45 regular season games then 13 in 20 playoff games? Call it what you want, I just love seeing it when it happens.

I was beginning to think of that as well. I would call one a "big game performer," while the other is clutch(a big moment performer). A player can be a big game performer and clutch. But a big game player isn't necessarily clutch.

It'd be a lot easier to come up with stats supporting if a player was a big game performer vs a big moment performer.

By the way, here's the definition of clutch, lol, according to Urban Dictionary.com:
"To perform under pressure"
"In the last few seconds of a close game, only a player with clutch can lead the team to victory."

 

[Feed Me A Stray Cat]

The streakiness that players exhibit in the regular season doesn't just go away in the playoffs. Moreover, the crazy bounces that influence games in the regular season don't go away in the playoffs.

Many people misinterpret this streakiness and bounces in the playoffs as meaning something more than it does.

Is Alec Martinez clutch because a crazy shot of his went in against Chicago, and that he happened to be in the right place for a perfect rebound opportunity against the Kings? I don't think so. I think those would be very hard to repeat. Moreover, I don't think Henrique is clutch because an innocuous shot from above the hash marks went in against Florida, and that he found the puck in a net mouth scramble of five players against the Rangers.