Devils 2017-18 team discussion (player news and notes) - Offseason part II

[Classic Devil]

Shattenkirk is like Rafalski. I don't really want to overpay to get him, but his skillset is rare enough and important enough that you do need to pay to acquire it sometimes. You just need to get him the right partner so he doesn't feel overtstretched by everything he's less expert at.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

Shattenkirk is a #2 defenseman. Greene and Severson are both 3/4s and Santini is a 4/5, and the rest of our D are 6/7s. If Shattenkirk is willing to come here for say 7X7, you do it.

 

[devilsblood]

Shattenkirk is a #2 defenseman. Greene and Severson are both 3/4s and Santini is a 4/5, and the rest of our D are 6/7s. If Shattenkirk is willing to come here for say 7X7, you do it.

I don't think I'm alone in saying I don't really know how good Shattenkirk is. But sifting through #'s this is what I found.

Amazing PP point producer. Best in the game.

On par with Severson at ES in numerous categories including, points, p/60, relative corsi. I think people are unaware on this. Especially his es point production, it's not that good. Over the last 3 years he has 3 more es then Adam Larsson.

So he would certainly be our PP QB. But I don't think he'd be our best d-man in other situations.

 

[Cult of Hynes]

Shattenkirk is like Rafalski. I don't really want to overpay to get him, but his skillset is rare enough and important enough that you do need to pay to acquire it sometimes. You just need to get him the right partner so he doesn't feel overtstretched by everything he's less expert at.

Rafalski was better defensively.

Shattenkirk is a #3 or 4 offensive specialist. He's not a guy you play on the top pairing against the toughest competition. For that reason I would take him for $5 or $5.5 million AAV, but don't go any higher at all.

Exactly how I see it. He is good offensively, and I can't deny that, but he isn't worth what it could take to get him here.

I get the sentiment about trading Henrique for a Dman.

But it seems after this draft we might have something that actually resembles a forward group. Taking Henrique out of it, just dilutes it further again.

They need defense, trading Henrique plus some picks can possible fill that need, which is harder to address than forwards. A drafted forward will be easier to get NHL ready in a shorter time than a drafted D man. If they can trade Henrique with a pick or two for a top 4 dman? do it.

 

[Bcap88]

Conversely, they need offense too I don't think we are in a spot to trade away a 20-25 goal scorer

 

[Classic Devil]

Rafalski was better defensively.

Rafalski played most of his career with Scott Stevens and Nik Lidstrom, I don't think you can fairly make this claim in a vacuum. Remember most of this board was okay with letting Rafalski walk because of his supposed "defensive deficiencies." Plus Rafalski was about as old as Shattenkirk is now when he joined the Devils in the first place.

 

[kiwidevil]

Rafalski was better defensively.



Exactly how I see it. He is good offensively, and I can't deny that, but he isn't worth what it could take to get him here.



They need defense, trading Henrique plus some picks can possible fill that need, which is harder to address than forwards. A drafted forward will be easier to get NHL ready in a shorter time than a drafted D man. If they can trade Henrique with a pick or two for a top 4 dman? do it.

You trade an asset to get a 'maybe' top 4 Dman. What does that do for this team? Pushes Moore down a slot? then weakens the forward depth to bottom 3rd in the league again, while pushing the defense up to 20th in the league, at best.

Now, sign Shattenkirk. Doesn't damage the very poor forward depth, adds a '3/4 Dman' in your words. Then if you trade Henrique for a Dman, at least the added Dman, on top of Shattenkirk, makes a major boost to the defense. Which can hopefully offset the lack of forward depth.

It has been said, that fixing the D, can't happen in one offseason. But in reality, it can.
Adding the best point producing Dman to the 22nd ranked PP makes a big difference too. It can also make 5 on 5 play easier too. Teams are likely to play more passively when taking a penalty can be so costly.

 

[Blender]

What four teams? The Caps don't really count, he was a rental for them. St. Louis and Tampa are two, and the Blues are stacked with d-men while he's just not displacing Hedman as the main guy in Tampa.

The closest he came to being a true #1 was 2014-16 in St. Louis when he averaged 22+ minutes TOI per game. He had 44 points in 56 games in 2014-15 with a +19, I don't see that as failing miserably. The next year 44 points in 72 games with a -14...that one wasn't too great but plus-minus I keep getting told means nothing with Severson being a -30 so....

Typo, I meant 3 teams. You're using season totals as well, which isn't what I said. I said those teams (Colorado, St. Louis, and Washington) all tried to play him in a top pairing role and he couldn't handle it. You can't just look at point totals either, he's bad defensively, really bad. If any team pays this guy to come in and anchor the top pairing, it will be a colossal mistake that they will suffer from for years.

 

[Cult of Hynes]

Conversely, they need offense too I don't think we are in a spot to trade away a 20-25 goal scorer

Forwards are easier to find than top 4 dmen. If you have to trade him to help get a top 4 dman, you do it.

You trade an asset to get a 'maybe' top 4 Dman. What does that do for this team? Pushes Moore down a slot? then weakens the forward depth to bottom 3rd in the league again, while pushing the defense up to 20th in the league, at best.

Now, sign Shattenkirk. Doesn't damage the very poor forward depth, adds a '3/4 Dman' in your words. Then if you trade Henrique for a Dman, at least the added Dman, on top of Shattenkirk, makes a major boost to the defense. Which can hopefully offset the lack of forward depth.

It has been said, that fixing the D, can't happen in one offseason. But in reality, it can.
Adding the best point producing Dman to the 22nd ranked PP makes a big difference too. It can also make 5 on 5 play easier too. Teams are likely to play more passively when taking a penalty can be so costly.

Brent Burns and Karlsson are available? haha.

Yea, they need two dmen, not one, like you said. Shattenkirk isn't good enough to shift the d by himself. He isn't good enough defensively, in fact he is pretty bad defensively. If they can get him for at most 5.5 million or lower, do it. If they can't, he's not worth it.

Typo, I meant 3 teams. You're using season totals as well, which isn't what I said. I said those teams (Colorado, St. Louis, and Washington) all tried to play him in a top pairing role and he couldn't handle it. You can't just look at point totals either, he's bad defensively, really bad. If any team pays this guy to come in and anchor the top pairing, it will be a colossal mistake that they will suffer from for years.

Bingo.

 

[Billdo]

Maybe Shattenkirk finally pushes Lovejoy to the third pairing where he MIGHT be alright.

 

[Cult of Hynes]

Maybe Shattenkirk finally pushes Lovejoy to the third pairing where he MIGHT be alright.

Lovejoy just sucks, he would suck even on the bench.

 

[AfroThunder396]

People forget how much Rafalski was ran down in 2006 and 2007. Stevens and Niedermayer were gone, he was supposed to fill our #1 role and was only able to fulfill the point producing part of it.

Without having a HHoF partner he was exposed. Paul Martin did a better job handling that role than Rafalski did.

 

[Blender]

People forget how much Rafalski was ran down in 2006 and 2007. Stevens and Niedermayer were gone, he was supposed to fill our #1 role and was only able to fulfill the point producing part of it.

Without having a HHoF partner he was exposed. Paul Martin did a better job handling that role than Rafalski did.

I think people get distracted by point totals from defensemen far too easily overall. You definitely need guys who can move the puck for your team, but the most important job or any defender is to prevent goals, and then transition to offense.

 

[JimEIV]

I don't think I'm alone in saying I don't really know how good Shattenkirk is. But sifting through #'s this is what I found.

Amazing PP point producer. Best in the game.

On par with Severson at ES in numerous categories including, points, p/60, relative corsi. I think people are unaware on this. Especially his es point production, it's not that good. Over the last 3 years he has 3 more es then Adam Larsson.

So he would certainly be our PP QB. But I don't think he'd be our best d-man in other situations.

Severson is 22 years old who has played for one one of the worst teams in the NHL for the last 3 years... Shattenkirk is 28 years old had 3 full years at BU before he entered the NHL and Kevin never really played on a bad team...

Not sure why the comparison is happening, but Severson will be a better all around Defenseman than Shattenkirk, no question about it.

 

[kiwidevil]

I think people get distracted by point totals from defensemen far too easily overall. You definitely need guys who can move the puck for your team, but the most important job or any defender is to prevent goals, and then transition to offense.

Even the best defensive Dmen in the world put up a descent amount of points.

Because as you say, when you can move the puck, it leads to points. When you can pass/read the game well enough, you get PP time.

Even Vlasic had 28 points. Who is considered the best Def. Dman with limited offense.

I think people also get distracted by the fact if a Dman has a good amount of points, his defense must be absolute rubbish.

Question, how are Shattenkirks' corsi numbers?

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I'm of the opinion that getting a good transition DMan like Shattenkirk will give a boost to the forwards as well.

The Devils' biggest problem is transitioning from the defensive zone to the offensive zone. I'd wager they are the worst team in the NHL at it.

 

[MadDevil]

I think the role of a defenseman has changed in recent years. Obviously preventing goals is a major part of the position, but it's no longer just about boxing out in front of the net or being in good position defensively, it's also about getting the puck out quickly. You look at a team like Pittsburgh, even without Letang their defensemen retrieve pucks and move them quickly. Our defense, as constructed, more often than not just chip it out, and while that can be the smart play if you're being pressured, it's also basically just giving up possession. A player like Shattenkirk might not be the best positional defender, and might turn the puck over trying to make something happen, but he can help get the puck out of the zone quickly and hopefully spend less time in our own end needing to defend.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I think the role of a defenseman has changed in recent years. Obviously preventing goals is a major part of the position, but it's no longer just about boxing out in front of the net or being in good position defensively, it's also about getting the puck out quickly. You look at a team like Pittsburgh, even without Letang their defensemen retrieve pucks and move them quickly. Our defense, as constructed, more often than not just chip it out, and while that can be the smart play if you're being pressured, it's also basically just giving up possession. A player like Shattenkirk might not be the best positional defender, and might turn the puck over trying to make something happen, but he can help get the puck out of the zone quickly and hopefully spend less time in our own end needing to defend.

He is going to turn over the puck a lot though. Especially on this team where he is going to play minutes and situations he absolutely shouldn't.

I think Blender has it right and I think if we sign up, 90% of the board is going to hate him before the season ends if he signs here. Point totals don't tell the story if he is getting coned on a nightly basis.

We do need a true PP QB. They can't be denied. The positive skills he has is what we need, but he isn't worth 7 years st 7 million per year.

Just because we need the skill set doesn't mean we go out and hand what will be a bad contract.

 

[MadDevil]

By the way, on the corsi question he's been a 52% or better CF% player for 7 straight seasons.

 

[Classic Devil]

Vatanen and Shattenkirk are both RHD, adding both puts a serious squeeze on Severson and Santini.

 

[Blender]

By the way, on the corsi question he's been a 52% or better CF% player for 7 straight seasons.

While as was pointed out earlier, mostly playing 2nd pairing minutes against weaker competition. His offensive zone starts are typically in the 55-70% range as well. The Capitals, who are lacking a #1 defenseman and trying to win a cup, just used him on the second pairing and gave him 71% 5on5 offensive zone starts.

 

[Nubmer6]

I feel like a lot of our problems with our zone exits is because of the system we play. I feel like we're taught to "support" our defenseman who has the puck by skating towards him, and we just end up dragging more opponents to the puck and leaving no outlet for the puck carrier.

Whether this is to cater to our D's shortcomings or just a bad strategy, I don't know, but I seen an outside possibility our D isn't as bad moving up the ice as they've shown.

 

[Classic Devil]

While as was pointed out earlier, mostly playing 2nd pairing minutes against weaker competition. His offensive zone starts are typically in the 55-70% range as well. The Capitals, who are lacking a #1 defenseman and trying to win a cup, just used him on the second pairing and gave him 71% 5on5 offensive zone starts.

He's an offensive defenseman PP guy, I'm not sure why this is either surprising or a large mark against him. We shouldn't be signing him to be the guy nightly. He'd be coming in to play the old Rafalski role - the key supplemental piece.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Vatanen and Shattenkirk are both RHD, adding both puts a serious squeeze on Severson and Santini.

ah thats fair, I forgot Vatanen was a righty.

 

[MadDevil]

I feel like a lot of our problems with our zone exits is because of the system we play. I feel like we're taught to "support" our defenseman who has the puck by skating towards him, and we just end up dragging more opponents to the puck and leaving no outlet for the puck carrier.

Whether this is to cater to our D's shortcomings or just a bad strategy, I don't know, but I seen an outside possibility our D isn't as bad moving up the ice as they've shown.

Maybe, but if you add Shattenkirk (or another PMD who will similarly turn the puck over at times) then you can roll with having Shattenkirk and Severson as your PMD in the top 4. Which would then drop Lovejoy down to the third pairing (or off the team entirely). It could be a little dicey for Santini to get playing time though.

I think you could put Greene with Shattenkirk and let him be the safety blanket for him. We'd still probably need a top 4 LHD to play with Severson though. I don't trust Merrill enough to give him that much responsibility, and Moore we all know has his own issues.

Ideally something like this...

Greene - Shattenkirk
TRADE - Severson
Merrill - Santini