Dennis Cholowski signs a 3 year EL Contract

[Winger98]

I'm hoping he can become something similar to Christian Ehrhoff... at the end of the day.

At the end of the day, Ehrhoff used to be a very fine defenceman and it would be hard to complain if Cholo became that effective of a player.

 

[Frk It]

At the end of the day, Ehrhoff used to be a very fine defenceman and it would be hard to complain if Cholo became that effective of a player.

Yeah, I didn't word that very well, but that would be my optimistic outcome for him. I think they have some similarities.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Yeah, I didn't word that very well, but that would be my optimistic outcome for him. I think they have some similarities.

I think you were heading in the right direction with it. There are still a number of really good defensemen who aren't Norris trophy winners.

I think the kid is built for the modern NHL. He may not be super creative with the puck in the offensive zone but he moves the puck super efficiently and skates well enough to create space gaining the offensive zone. I think he can up his offensive value if he can just learn to get a ton of his shots through to the net. He probably won't ever have a cannon of a shot, but I am not sure he needs to have one to contribute offensively given his passing and puck movement.

 

[vladdy16]

I'm with Henkka. Cholowski has the vision and IQ to be a norris calibur defensemen.

There is nothing about Cholowski that reminds me of a young Mike Green. I would say Ehrhoff is a lot closer to Cholowski's floor than his ceiling.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I'm with Henkka. Cholowski has the vision and IQ to be a norris calibur defensemen.

There is nothing about Cholowski that reminds me of a young Mike Green. I would say Ehrhoff is a lot closer to Cholowski's floor than his ceiling.

Ehrhoff had a pretty quick decline, but he was a pretty good NHL D-man. I think Cholowski could max out higher, but that comparison isn't bad. He was the best D-man on a Stanley Cup finalist. Without the ill-fated Hamhuis hip-check a likely winning Stanley Cup team...

 

[vladdy16]

Ehrhoff had a pretty quick decline, but he was a pretty good NHL D-man. I think Cholowski could max out higher, but that comparison isn't bad.

I'm not saying it's bad, just highlighting the other end of the spectrum. I'd be surprised if Cholowski wasn't at least a solid second pairing guy that could enjoy success on the top pair in a couple peak years.

Ehrhoff is a great comarison as a player type, but Cholowski's ceiling is a lot higher than 30ppy on the second pairing.

 

[Frk It]

I'm with Henkka. Cholowski has the vision and IQ to be a norris calibur defensemen.

There is nothing about Cholowski that reminds me of a young Mike Green. I would say Ehrhoff is a lot closer to Cholowski's floor than his ceiling.

What about Cholowski leads you to believe he has a higher ceiling than what Ehrhoff was?

Ehrhoff was a 50 pt, #1 minute guy at his peak.

Being a Norris caliber defenseman has less to do with hockey IQ nowadays, and really everything to do with pts. So to say he would could be a Norris caliber defenseman, with how it's assesed today, you'd basically have to think he can be a top 3 or top 5 pt producer at the defenseman position.

And sorry for being the negative nancy here, but don't really see what he's done to date that suggests that is a likely outcome.

 

[Bench]

And sorry for being the negative nancy here, but don't really see what he's done to date that suggests that is a likely outcome.

It's because there is nothing to support it. Some positive write-ups by online scouts that literally every other prospect gets are being spun into a narrative that the Wings defensive pipeline is actually doing great and passing on a current NHL defender was the right move.

 

[vladdy16]

What about Cholowski leads you to believe he has a higher ceiling than what Ehrhoff was?

Ehrhoff was a 50 pt, #1 minute guy at his peak.

Being a Norris caliber defenseman has less to do with hockey IQ nowadays, and really everything to do with pts. So to say he would could be a Norris caliber defenseman, with how it's assesed today, you'd basically have to think he can be a top 3 or top 5 pt producer at the defenseman position.

And sorry for being the negative nancy here, but don't really see what he's done to date that suggests that is a likely outcome.

What makes you so sure the criteria that will be defining Norris winners in 2030 is the same as it is now? Forget the norris, I think it's simpler to just say that some would think Cholowski has the potential to be one of the best players in the league. (I will say, that if your IQ is such that you're getting put out there 25-30 mins a night, yer gonna rack up some pts)

Ehrhoffs peak was 2 years, so that's not a very lofty ceiling. To me, if nothing special happens with Cholowski, you should at least get a bunch of years of 20-30 pts from the second pairing, and he should hit 40-50 at his ufapeak like Ehrhoff. And again, I'm only supporting the idea of super lofty hopes/expectations for Cholowski, I think the Ehrhoff comp is a great starting point.

So as far as ceilings go, I would say Ehrhoff was a great complimentary piece. He has good skills, can keep up with the pace of play and contribute, and eventually gained enough experience to be a reliable part of a teams core.

What I see in Cholowski is the ability to control the pace of play, and an ability to be actively engaged in the fate of his 5 man unit. Those kind of traits could potentially fast track Cholowski to a developmental plane that Ehrhoff never reached.

Obviously in reality, Cholowski's floor is Jesse Wallin or whatever, so for sure if he develops into an Ehrhoff level player, that's already a win. But I think realistic expectations for Cholowski, if he becomes an NHL regular, are already in the Ehrhoff range, and beyond that I'm looking for 92-98 Lidstrom from Cholowski after a year or two of acclimation.

Nothing wrong with being realistic or negative, but also nothing wrong with going out on a limb when you see a player that stands out above the rest to you.

 

[Bench]

Forget the norris, I think it's simpler to just say that some would think Cholowski has the potential to be one of the best players in the league.

Citation needed.

You know, if he's just a top 4 NHL defender that's a success at that draft position. Why do we need to promote him to top 3 player in the world to feel validated?

 

[vladdy16]

It's because there is nothing to support it. Some positive write-ups by online scouts that literally every other prospect gets are being spun into a narrative that the Wings defensive pipeline is actually doing great and passing on a current NHL defender was the right move.

If there was more to support it, it wouldn't be a very interesting topic of discussion.

I watch players more than I read write ups, but whatever, I'm talking casually here, not building narratives. Bringing up Chychrun and his NHL experience is funny to me. 99% of my thoughts on Cholowski are entirely unrelated to Chychrun. Two completely different player types.

 

[vladdy16]

Citation needed.

You know, if he's just a top 4 NHL defender that's a success at that draft position. Why do we need to promote him to top 3 player in the world to feel validated?

I am the citation.

How many more times should I have qualified my optimism in my post for it to be clear that I agree that being a top 4 NHL defender would be a success for anyone?

 

[Frk It]

What makes you so sure the criteria that will be defining Norris winners in 2030 is the same as it is now? Forget the norris, I think it's simpler to just say that some would think Cholowski has the potential to be one of the best players in the league. (I will say, that if your IQ is such that you're getting put out there 25-30 mins a night, yer gonna rack up some pts)

Ehrhoffs peak was 2 years, so that's not a very lofty ceiling. To me, if nothing special happens with Cholowski, you should at least get a bunch of years of 20-30 pts from the second pairing, and he should hit 40-50 at his ufapeak like Ehrhoff. And again, I'm only supporting the idea of super lofty hopes/expectations for Cholowski, I think the Ehrhoff comp is a great starting point.

So as far as ceilings go, I would say Ehrhoff was a great complimentary piece. He has good skills, can keep up with the pace of play and contribute, and eventually gained enough experience to be a reliable part of a teams core.

What I see in Cholowski is the ability to control the pace of play, and an ability to be actively engaged in the fate of his 5 man unit. Those kind of traits could potentially fast track Cholowski to a developmental plane that Ehrhoff never reached.

Obviously in reality, Cholowski's floor is Jesse Wallin or whatever, so for sure if he develops into an Ehrhoff level player, that's already a win. But I think realistic expectations for Cholowski, if he becomes an NHL regular, are already in the Ehrhoff range, and beyond that I'm looking for 92-98 Lidstrom from Cholowski after a year or two of acclimation.

Nothing wrong with being realistic or negative, but also nothing wrong with going out on a limb when you see a player that stands out above the rest to you.

One of the best players in the league? Wow... maybe a little homerism going on here?

I mean if he had this otherworldly hockey IQ why's he on the outside looking in for team Canada, and why wasn't he featured on the PP for SCSU instead of Jack Ahcan?

 

[ricky0034]

Ehrhoffs peak was 2 years, so that's not a very lofty ceiling. To me, if nothing special happens with Cholowski, you should at least get a bunch of years of 20-30 pts from the second pairing, and he should hit 40-50 at his ufapeak like Ehrhoff. And again, I'm only supporting the idea of super lofty hopes/expectations for Cholowski, I think the Ehrhoff comp is a great starting point.

I feel like you're selling Ehrhoff a bit short here

over a 5 year period across 3 different teams he put up 190 points in 349 games(45 point pace) and averaged something like 23 minutes of ice-time a night

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I am the citation.

How many more times should I have qualified my optimism in my post for it to be clear that I agree that being a top 4 NHL defender would be a success for anyone?

Except Ericsson, right? He should jump off a building and castrate himself.

 

[vladdy16]

One of the best players in the league? Wow... maybe a little homerism going on here?

yes

I mean if he had this otherworldly hockey IQ why's he on the outside looking in for team Canada, and why wasn't he featured on the PP for SCSU instead of Jack Ahcan?

If Jiri Hudler can score 76 points in Calgary why can't he crack Babcocks lineup, or the olympic team? Why was Lidstrom drafted in the 3rd round?

A high hockey IQ has very little short term benefit, especially in situations like tournament teams, or teams where the age range and tenure of players is wide.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

One of the best players in the league? Wow... maybe a little homerism going on here?

I mean if he had this otherworldly hockey IQ why's he on the outside looking in for team Canada, and why wasn't he featured on the PP for SCSU instead of Jack Ahcan?

Because Dennis Cholowski is nowhere near as sweet a name as Jack Ahcan?

 

[vladdy16]

I feel like you're selling Ehrhoff a bit short here

over a 5 year period across 3 different teams he put up 190 points in 349 games(45 point pace) and averaged something like 23 minutes of ice-time a night

Maybe I am. My recollection was that he consistently put up points from the 2nd pairing, and eventually developed into a player that a bunch of teams without a number 1 clamored for when he peaked, and it worked out alright for VAN for a couple years.

I'm thinking Cholowski can be a number 1 from ages 25-35, where I was thinking Ehrhoffs window as a number 1 was more like 29-31 or 28-32 .

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

One of the best players in the league? Wow... maybe a little homerism going on here?

I mean if he had this otherworldly hockey IQ why's he on the outside looking in for team Canada, and why wasn't he featured on the PP for SCSU instead of Jack Ahcan?

Honestly as a USA Hockey fan, I hope he stays on the outside of Team Canada, he is better than some of the players I saw at the Summer showcase that are about to make that team.

A big first half in the WHL will probably mute that, but I don't see why he isn't in the running there. Canada just got destroyed defensively by the USA twice in the summer, some of the same group lost twice last year. If I was them I would be looking pretty hard at some of those D-man and wondering if what I am bringing is enough to win gold because they haven't looked very good as a group repetitively for some of those guys.

 

[Frk It]

Honestly as a USA Hockey fan, I hope he stays on the outside of Team Canada, he is better than some of the players I saw at the Summer showcase that are about to make that team.

A big first half in the WHL will probably mute that, but I don't see why he isn't in the running there. Canada just got destroyed defensively by the USA twice in the summer, some of the same group lost twice last year. If I was them I would be looking pretty hard at some of those D-man and wondering if what I am bringing is enough to win gold because they haven't looked very good as a group repetitively for some of those guys.

I don't disagree, but as I said, if he had realistic potential at being one of the best players in the game, then he is a no-brainer selection for Team Canada. Not a guy who might grab the last spot.

I'm not trying to bag on him, he has a nice skill set and progressed nice physically, he just has a lot to prove for the way some are discussing him in this thread. I've warmed up to the pick some, and as I've said a good measuring stick now would be to compare him to Jake Bean and Kale Clague, being other guys from his draft year playing in the WHL.

 

[vladdy16]

I don't disagree, but as I said, if he had realistic potential at being one of the best players in the game, then he is a no-brainer selection for Team Canada. Not a guy who might grab the last spot.

Keith, Chara and Giordano are defensemen that have been amongst the best players in the league at one point or another, and they didn't make the cut as teenagers.

 

[Frk It]

Keith, Chara and Giordano are defensemen that have been amongst the best players in the league at one point or another, and they didn't make the cut as teenagers.

I get it.

But we're talking about the difference of something being possible and something being probable.

I'm going to stick with my more conservative projection until I see reason to up the ante. Pacing with the guys I mentioned above is a good start.

 

[vladdy16]

I get it.

But we're talking about the difference of something being possible and something being probable.

I'm going to stick with my more conservative projection until I see reason to up the ante. Pacing with the guys I mentioned above is a good start.

Agreed. Just throwing my 2 cents out, so others can have fun wondering if/when they want to up the ante as they watch Cholowski progress.

 

[Frk It]

Agreed. Just throwing my 2 cents out, so others can have fun wondering if/when they want to up the ante as they watch Cholowski progress.

We will see what happens, this should be a big year for him.

Would be kind of epic if you end up being right

 

[Winger98]

Maybe I am. My recollection was that he consistently put up points from the 2nd pairing, and eventually developed into a player that a bunch of teams without a number 1 clamored for when he peaked, and it worked out alright for VAN for a couple years.

I'm thinking Cholowski can be a number 1 from ages 25-35, where I was thinking Ehrhoffs window as a number 1 was more like 29-31 or 28-32 .

Well, to be fair to Ehrhoff, he was part of a pretty good and pretty deep blueline in SJ, iirc. I wouldn't hold it against him that he wasn't used as a #1 until he left. And over his career he produced at a 35 point pace over 82 games. He aged fast (injuries?), but that doesn't take away from what he was.

Would it be better to compare him to Teppo Numminen? Never won a Norris and only had a couple of big seasons production wise, but played a ton of hard minutes for Winnipeg over the years and was an unquestioned rock for them.