Value of: DeAngelo

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Viqsi

"that chick from Ohio"
Oct 5, 2007
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Second.

I fully appreciate how ridiculous it is to be digging this deep down the rabbit hole. What else do you do to counter tons of ignorant, lazy drive-by attacks? I don't know. Only other option is to ignore it. My interest is in the broader social phenomena, not the individual case. I just happen to be a hockey fan too.
The problem with that approach is that this individual case is a bit of an extreme one. This isn't really one in which pure objectivity is a respectable position. It might be more prudent to say that there's evidently more than enough from what we do definitely have to conclude ADA is a toxic jerk without also uncritically accepting and parroting additional rumors.
 
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blindpass

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May 7, 2010
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Did my post say anything that was not true?

It seems like you're just evading the fact that you are bending over backwards for someone who has continually shown he is not a good person and not a good teammate.
Did I say you did? Weird.

It seems like you are trying to tar me for pushing back against an excess. What are you playing at?
 

blindpass

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May 7, 2010
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The problem with that approach is that this individual case is a bit of an extreme one. This isn't really one in which pure objectivity is a respectable position. It might be more prudent to say that there's evidently more than enough from what we do definitely have to conclude ADA is a toxic jerk without also uncritically accepting and parroting additional rumors.
I've actually said that, though "toxic jerk" is loaded. This is my whole point.
 

Viqsi

"that chick from Ohio"
Oct 5, 2007
53,797
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40N 83W (approx)
I've actually said that.
If you have, I'm not the only one who missed it. Your tone is very heavily on the side of "dispassionate objectivity", which is fair if you're trying to examine an issue in abstract, but this isn't really an abstract case - the guy got kicked out, we know some of the crap he's pulled. That kind of has to be acknowledged, and if you're not doing so it's easy for folks to forget and assume that you're just trying to pretend he's not the issue - when, in fact, he is. You personally might be more interested in the social phenomenon in which he's getting bonus accusations from G-d only knows where of dubious veracity, but that's not the topic of the thread per se. The topic of the thread is Tony DeAngelo's value and career status in general.

EDIT:
though "toxic jerk" is loaded. This is my whole point.
Of course it is. What he's evidently been up to is egregious enough that that's to be expected.
 

Lurked4Yearz

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Nov 23, 2011
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I appreciate this post as an articulate statement of the point of view I've been pushing against. I think there's a possibility that something like this happened. If it did there would still be a lot of questions to ask about how it was presented by Adam Herman and the idea that a lot of spin is being served and eaten up on the topic resonates with me too.

I think Miller's agent's statement is pretty clear, I don't see how it is a soft rebuttal.
“It’s K’Andre’s understanding that the NYR equipment manager, or whoever is responsible for getting it, has the puck and that it’s being framed like other first goals. At no time did he think otherwise.”

Neither were the statements by the team. They didn't dodge the issue, they categorically said it was false meaning if other facts come to light they will be in a very bad spot. What we see in the video also doesn't really jibe with the narrative.

The idea that the Rangers might be motivated to hide their dirty laundry isn't crazy, and this narrative hinges on that completely. The idea that Herman has DeAngelo Derangement Syndrome (sorry) isn't crazy either. I genuinely don't know what to believe here.

I'd still encourage anyone who finds the issue interesting (for me it is because it is a bit of a microcosm of bigger issues) and wants to have perspective on it, I suggest you watch the highlights of the goal. It goes like this...

DeAngelo, playing on the offensive goal line (of course) when Miller takes a point shot, instantly celebrates the goal and continues towards the net to retrieve the puck. No way he's faking happiness at the goal, or unaware who scored it. Then we see the celebration, which DeAngelo joins last because we was retrieving the puck. Miller is waiting for him to arrive after celebrating with the others and they fist bump then hug. This just doesn't look like two people who dislike (or are even ambivalent about) each other, or one who is about to prank another for racial reasons (who happens to have 5 inches height and 25lbs on him, how's that going to go?) Maybe DeAngelo really is like a cartoon villain and attempted this. Just seems far fetched. A friendly prank is more plausible, but still seems doubtful given the statements by agent and team.

If we really want the truth MSG would likely have the relevant video -- the broadcast has a camera cut right before DeAngelo would have been seen skating by the trainer(?) with the towel on his shoulder who is gesturing for the puck. It also looks like he turns and hands something to another guy who turns and goes down the tunnel, but I can't say it looked puck-like unless it had been put inside something.

I'm not saying DeAngelo is getting shafted, that he isn't a locker room problem, a jerk, or even that he didn't try to play a prank. My problem is that people want to mesh a bunch of embellished ideas into a narrative that makes someone an irredeemable racist when there really isn't any evidence of it. Herman is definitely playing it that way. He may have some inside knowledge to justify that which he isn't at liberty to share, but the ends don't justify the means. We shouldn't just believe something because it suits our purposes.

Since you said you don't want internet debate club I don't expect a response, but again, I do appreciate your long thoughtful post amidst the superficial hot takes.
If DeAngelo put half as much effort in becoming a better person than you've put into your 55 posts in this thread, he'd probably be looked at in a better light.

He's essentially the human embodiment of "If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole". He's been the sole constant in all the events that have plagued his journey so far, so it's no wonder that he gets well deserved flack in a situation like this. Where there's smoke, there's usually fire with this guy.
 

Muikea Bulju

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Oct 11, 2018
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NHL players are men with macho mindsets. Many men, perhaps most consider some talk “fighting words” and would, again, blame DeAngelo over Georgiev. Especially, again, in a league that settles things between player often with fights in the heat of the moment.

You talk some shit, men back it up.

What played out played out. If we gotta agree to disagree then so be it, but obviously they made the choice they made. DeAngelo has a long history Georgiev does not.
I guess be glad you’re not in the NHL.

I am not "not blaming" DeAngelo. Obviously DeAngelo is at fault, but so is Georgiev

Nobody would have blinked an eye if DeAngelo would have just been waived after his "sarcastic remark" to Georgiev, especially after his previous comments. No need to start to punch him, just get his ass out.

But if people start to blame only DeAngelo after he has been punched, that gets attention.

If you want to fight him, have a fair fight.I doubt Georgiev would have wanted that.
 

duckpuck

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The single-most highly trusted source on HFNYR clarified that DeAngelo had in fact been very vocal about political and racial stances over the past month(s) among his teammates. It has nothing to do with Junior suspensions that people are discussing his political views. Issues allegedly culminated in a physical altercation that involved DeAngelo attempting to choke-out Georgiev, and then lashing out at multiple other players as they intervened.

This seems like incredibly important information and context. Did people say this on the record? Link please.

Sarnia's Anthony DeAngelo suspended for slur directed at teammate

he used a slur(s) that was homophobic and/or racist. one isn't any better than the other. not sure why people keep trying to deny that this happened. oh, and he was suspended twice for violating the same rule. it was clearly bad enough considering his own team went to the league to report it

No one is denying something bad happened. But the specifics matter. If it was a homophobic slur, that is not evidence of racism? See how that works. For example, Ryan Getzlaf uttered homophobic slur and no one calls him a racist.

I don't agree. Please pre-clutch your pearls... ok, ready?

Words like "g*y" or harsher variants have a long history of being used as generic pejoratives. It isn't hard to imagine that there are pockets of this still around, evidently in some NJ suburbs of Philly. Norms are changing and it is becoming unacceptable, and meanwhile the idea that intent matters is also going away. The combination of these things seems to have us in a place where the difference between using it as a generic insult (i.e. nobody is literally instructing someone to do any particular act when they say "go f- yourself") is equated with intolerance. Yes, they contribute to intolerance and it is reasonable for polite society to discourage it (say with 8 game suspensions -- and good on Trevor Letowski or whoever made the call for taking a stand to make the point, even though it was his best player), but they aren't directly indicative of bigotry, rather than simple insensitivity. There's a difference -- I get that people want to draw a hard line and treat everything over it exactly the same but I can't make sense of that. Going from "he used a homophobic slur 7 years ago" to "I believe he probably mistreats minorities today" is a pretty crazy leap, but that's what people are doing.

As always, I'm ready to update my view if there is more evidence but I think we have to stop the slide of not caring about the facts as soon as someone fails a purity test.

This needs to be framed and posted repeatedly throughout the internet.

FWIW Contrition... no reported incidents after this.
Prospector Files: Sarnia's DeAngelo looks to move on - NHL.com - News

You don't read what I write. I don't think he's a great guy. I'm not defending him, I'm defending the idea that the truth matters.

I genuinely think that your penchant to ignore half of what is written and not care about facts is a much greater moral failure than using a slur as an insult. Where are we now?

Again - frame this. Literally no one is saying DeAngelo is a great guy - complete strawman. Like you, I object to a bandwagon/mob, bolstered by false or misleading reporting, simply adopting their preferred narrative without facts. People should demand actual evidence - both for and against DeAngelo. Initial reports were he punched his goalie - actual facts were the exact opposite.

LOL at the people defending DeAngelo

LOL at thinking that demanding factual accuracy is defending DeAngelo. It can be true that DeAngelo is a bad guy who deserved to be cut AND that a massive mob (including people on this website) is impugning him with a bunch of allegations that have little or no evidence supporting them. Think about it - Miller, DeAngelo's agent, and the NYR are denying that certain things happened, yet people on this website insist they did because . . . they want them to be true.

Larger point: there is no doubt in my mind that DeAngelo suffers by playing in NY where his political views are reviled. And the NYR are, at least in part, reacting to their woke mob fan base. Maybe that's the right business decisions - but it is not evidence that DeAngelo is a racist.
 
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Chips

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Aug 19, 2015
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I am not "not blaming" DeAngelo. Obviously DeAngelo is at fault, but so is Georgiev

Nobody would have blinked an eye if DeAngelo would have just been waived after his "sarcastic remark" to Georgiev, especially after his previous comments. No need to start to punch him, just get his ass out.

But if people start to blame only DeAngelo after he has been punched, that gets attention.

If you want to fight him, have a fair fight.I doubt Georgiev would have wanted that.
Georgiev probably felt DeAngelo “sucker punched” him with the comments while he was already down, especially since that goal (said in a prior post, goalies carry a massively disproportionate amount of mental burden; they’re playing a different game parallel to the rest. Hence more emotional outbursts from them: smashing their sticks any goal, or lying “dead” in the ice ten seconds after they failed sprawling out etc), but not the entire game, was his fault (DeAngelo was on the ice almost every one).

Respect played into it at no point either way, and DeAngelo started it. It’s a rule you don’t mess with your goalies. Or really talk to them much game day

You’re trying to apply logic to an emotional outburst. That only goes so far.

If Georgiev fights someone every day then he’s a problem, but exceptionally shitty comments then he gets a pass by most teams no matter how well liked DeAngelo is on the team. If he fights all the time then he’s got emotional issues like DeAngelo does, but he probably doesn’t in real life.
 

Terry Yake

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Aug 5, 2013
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This seems like incredibly important information and context. Did people say this on the record? Link please.



No one is denying something bad happened. But the specifics matter. If it was a homophobic slur, that is not evidence of racism? See how that works. For example, Ryan Getzlaf uttered homophobic slur and no one calls him a racist.



This needs to be framed and posted repeatedly throughout the internet.



Again - frame this. Literally no one is saying DeAngelo is a great guy - complete strawman. Like you, I object to a bandwagon/mob, bolstered by false or misleading reporting, simply adopting their preferred narrative without facts. People should demand actual evidence - both for and against DeAngelo. Initial reports were he punched his goalie - actual facts were the exact opposite.



LOL at thinking that demanding factual accuracy is defending DeAngelo. It can be true that DeAngelo is a bad guy who deserved to be cut AND that a massive mob (including people on this website) is impugning him with a bunch of allegations that have little or no evidence supporting them. Think about it - Miller, DeAngelo's agent, and the NYR are denying that certain things happened, yet people on this website insist they did because . . . they want them to be true.

Larger point: there is no doubt in my mind that DeAngelo suffers by playing in NY where his political views are reviled. And the NYR are, at least in part, reacting to their woke mob fan base. Maybe that's the right business decisions - but it is not evidence that DeAngelo is a racist.
so being a homophobe is better than being a racist?

they're both equally bad
 
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Terry Yake

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Aug 5, 2013
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FWIW Contrition... no reported incidents after this.
Prospector Files: Sarnia's DeAngelo looks to move on - NHL.com - News

You don't read what I write. I don't think he's a great guy. I'm not defending him, I'm defending the idea that the truth matters.

I genuinely think that your penchant to ignore half of what is written and not care about facts is a much greater moral failure than using a slur as an insult. Where are we now?
what exactly am i ignoring?

and what's this "truth" about deangelo that apparently everyone is missing? i'm curious
 

blindpass

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May 7, 2010
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If DeAngelo put half as much effort in becoming a better person than you've put into your 55 posts in this thread, he'd probably be looked at in a better light.

He's essentially the human embodiment of "If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole". He's been the sole constant in all the events that have plagued his journey so far, so it's no wonder that he gets well deserved flack in a situation like this. Where there's smoke, there's usually fire with this guy.

Sure. Unfortunately every time I fact something I run into evidence that what is thrown around about him isn't accurate or at the very least requires a lot of spin to take seriously.

We don't know if his problems are responding poorly to management feedback, like flipping out when benched, or pushing his politics too heavily in the room, or mistreating teammates regularly... might be a mix of all of these and more, to varying degrees. When I see the puck stealing story and it doesn't ring true, and then I start poking and neither does other stuff -- I should just shut up? Does the internet mob (including a lot on this forum) deserve a pass for their BS? It is certainly more harmful because it happens across the board, not just hockey talk.
 
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