Value of: David Savard to the Leafs..

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

As much as everybody wants a top 9 forward and they should.

I also want another piece and the guy near the top of my list is David Savard only Ekholm is higher on my list.

You add David Savard to this group you got.

Rielly Brodie

Muzzuin Savard

Holl Dermott/Bogosian

then either Dermott or Bogosian as #7

To me that's championship level depth on defense

Some will say we don't need it but I watched Muzzuin go down VS Columbus last year, at that point the Leafs were screwed I dont want to see that happen again so bring in David Savard and protect against that

Click to read more...

 

[Smif]

Our RD is solid, maybe upgrade Dermott on our LD but even that isn't necessary, I would do that if a good deal comes up but not really pushing hard to do IMO.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Our RD is solid, maybe upgrade Dermott on our LD but even that isn't necessary, I would do that if a good deal comes up but not really pushing hard to do IMO.

It's not about what side he plays I couldn't care less about that, it's about making sure you aren't f***ed if a top 4 D goes down like they were last year when Muzzuin went down VS Columbus

 

[kevsh]

If your primary concern is insurance in case of an injury to the top 4, usually you would target a 6th-7th d-man for a mid/late-round pick. Savard is not that.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

Muzzin isn't a penguin.

 

[seanlinden]

If your primary concern is insurance in case of an injury to the top 4, usually you would target a 6th-7th d-man for a mid/late-round pick. Savard is not that.

The Leafs have a few 6-7 defencemen who can step in... The question is: Do they have they have the right one to step up?

As crazy as this sounds; if Morgan Rielly goes down, it's not necessarily a big problem. Travis Dermott likely steps up and plays quite well alongside TJ Brodie. Rasmus Sandin or Timothy Liljegren step in, and all is good.

But as the OP mentioned, what if Jake Muzzin gets hurt? Now your 2nd pair is Travis Dermott & Justin Holl; with a 3rd pair being Bogosian and Sandin or Liljegren. Rielly-Brodie have been really good this year, but they're not who tend to face the tough matchups.

Heck, what if Brodie or Holl go down? you're now asking Zach Bogosian to play well above where he should be at this stage in his career.

The Leafs right now are likely very happy with their D. The team is 8th in GA/GP, with a revolving door of goalies and poor play by their #1 guy.... but they aren't necessarily well set up for the "next man up" approach. Stylistically, their 7th and 8th defencemen could be ideal replacements for Rielly or Dermott; but not really a fit to replace Muzzin, Brodie, Holl or Bogosian without broader changes.

Savard would be "an embarassment of riches"; and likely bump Bogosian undeservedly out of the lineup... but it would give the Leafs the depth to seamlessly replace somebody if they needed to.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Muzzin isn't a penguin.

That has nothing to do with anything

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

That has nothing to do with anything

Are you sure tho?

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

If your primary concern is insurance in case of an injury to the top 4, usually you would target a 6th-7th d-man for a mid/late-round pick. Savard is not that.

I don't care what teams usually do.

Stack the team as much as possible

 

[IrishInOntario]

You have to think Savard would cost something less than what Muzzin did, with a sweetener for retention, right?

Muzzin cost a 1st round pick and two recent 2nd round prospects in Grundstrom and Durzi). Of those two prospects Grundstrom was seen as having 2nd round value, while Durzi was seen as likely overrated.

Therefore, if I was interested, my offer would be something like...

To Columbus
2021 1st round pick
Travis Dermott or Filip Hallander or Ronnie Hirvonen (all former 2nd's)

To Toronto
David Savard (retained)

I'm not saying I'd pay that price, but I understand why Columbus would ask for it!

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

You have to think Savard would cost something less than what Muzzin did, with a sweetener for retention, right?

Muzzin cost a 1st round pick and two recent 2nd round prospects in Grundstrom and Durzi). Of those two prospects Grundstrom was seen as having 2nd round value, while Durzi was seen as likely overrated.

Therefore, if I was interested, my offer would be something like...

To Columbus
2021 1st round pick
Travis Dermott or Filip Hallander or Ronnie Hirvonen (all former 2nd's)

To Toronto
David Savard (retained)

I'm not saying I'd pay that price, but I understand why Columbus would ask for it!

Muzzuin Wasn't a rental Savard is

 

[IrishInOntario]

Muzzuin Wasn't a rental Savard is

Muzzin didn't require retention, Savard, theoretically, would.

Therefore, a 1st + a former 2nd round pick is effectively about 66% of what you paid for Muzzin. About the equivalent of a 1st + Grundstrom, had Durzi not been included.

I don't know if you're going to get a prime, top 4, minute eater for less than that... Even if he's a rental. Those guys are valuable.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

The Leafs have a few 6-7 defencemen who can step in... The question is: Do they have they have the right one to step up?

As crazy as this sounds; if Morgan Rielly goes down, it's not necessarily a big problem. Travis Dermott likely steps up and plays quite well alongside TJ Brodie. Rasmus Sandin or Timothy Liljegren step in, and all is good.

But as the OP mentioned, what if Jake Muzzin gets hurt? Now your 2nd pair is Travis Dermott & Justin Holl; with a 3rd pair being Bogosian and Sandin or Liljegren. Rielly-Brodie have been really good this year, but they're not who tend to face the tough matchups.

Heck, what if Brodie or Holl go down? you're now asking Zach Bogosian to play well above where he should be at this stage in his career.

The Leafs right now are likely very happy with their D. The team is 8th in GA/GP, with a revolving door of goalies and poor play by their #1 guy.... but they aren't necessarily well set up for the "next man up" approach. Stylistically, their 7th and 8th defencemen could be ideal replacements for Rielly or Dermott; but not really a fit to replace Muzzin, Brodie, Holl or Bogosian without broader changes.

Savard would be "an embarassment of riches"; and likely bump Bogosian undeservedly out of the lineup... but it would give the Leafs the depth to seamlessly replace somebody if they needed to.

I'm as high on Sandin as anybody but I don't like the idea of a rookie on the top pair.

As for Holl getting hurt I don't think an in jury to Holl costs you a series, but an injury to Rielly Brodie or Muzzuin? that could for sure

 

[seanlinden]

You have to think Savard would cost something less than what Muzzin did, with a sweetener for retention, right?

Muzzin cost a 1st round pick and two recent 2nd round prospects in Grundstrom and Durzi). Of those two prospects Grundstrom was seen as having 2nd round value, while Durzi was seen as likely overrated.

Therefore, if I was interested, my offer would be something like...

To Columbus
2021 1st round pick
Travis Dermott or Filip Hallander or Ronnie Hirvonen (all former 2nd's)

To Toronto
David Savard (retained)

I'm not saying I'd pay that price, but I understand why Columbus would ask for it!

I think the "market" for trading 1st round picks this year is going to be very, very tough. All teams are in financial challenges -- even if you win the cup or get to the finals, there is no huge payday that awaits from a team standpoint.

Teams are going to be extremely stingy on trading away their draft capital. Montreal did it because they still have 12 picks this year.

As for the comparison between Muzzin and Savard's "value"; I don't think you can necessarily "equate" the extra year that Muzzin had to the retention that Savard would require. Muzzin is a guy who was brought in not only to fill a hole, but evolve the culture of the team over a longer period of time. You can justify losing a premier asset like a 1st round pick for that.

Savard isn't coming in with that. He's a potential gap-filler on a 1-year deal, plain and simple. He's a good defenceman, but not a game-breaker. Guys like him in a normal year get a 2nd round pick, plus some other less valuable asset. In a COVID year, you could probably equate the retention to getting his value back up to what it might be in a normal year.

Ekholm on the other hand, may garner a 1st because he comes with that extra year.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Muzzin didn't require retention, Savard, theoretically, would.

Therefore, a 1st + a former 2nd round pick is effectively about 66% of what you paid for Muzzin. About the equivalent of a 1st + Grundstrom, had Durzi not been included.

I don't know if you're going to get a prime, top 4, minute eater for less than that... Even if he's a rental. Those guys are valuable.

I don't see most rentals getting a 1st round pick this year, not when there are about 5 teams with actual money.

Hall and Palmeri might get 1sts but I think that's it and even then I think those 1sts are conditional

 

[seanlinden]

I'm as high on Sandin as anybody but I don't like the idea of a rookie on the top pair.

As for Holl getting hurt I don't think an in jury to Holl costs you a series, but an injury to Rielly Brodie or Muzzuin? that could for sure

Presumably, Dermott would go to the "top pair" with Brodie, Muzzin-Holl would become your "2nd pair that's really the #1 pair", and Sandin would play with Bogosian.

As for Holl... realistically, who replaces him? He & Muzzin get very difficult minutes. Personally, I don't think Bogosian is up to it.

 

[IrishInOntario]

I think the "market" for trading 1st round picks this year is going to be very, very tough. All teams are in financial challenges -- even if you win the cup or get to the finals, there is no huge payday that awaits from a team standpoint.

Teams are going to be extremely stingy on trading away their draft capital. Montreal did it because they still have 12 picks this year.

As for the comparison between Muzzin and Savard's "value"; I don't think you can necessarily "equate" the extra year that Muzzin had to the retention that Savard would require. Muzzin is a guy who was brought in not only to fill a hole, but evolve the culture of the team over a longer period of time. You can justify losing a premier asset like a 1st round pick for that.

Savard isn't coming in with that. He's a potential gap-filler on a 1-year deal, plain and simple. He's a good defenceman, but not a game-breaker. Guys like him in a normal year get a 2nd round pick, plus some other less valuable asset. In a COVID year, you could probably equate the retention to getting his value back up to what it might be in a normal year.

I'd be absolutely shocked if a retained David Savard goes for a 2nd round pick and a couple low end assets. That said, if he does, I'll track you down and give you kudos for predicting hi. Being traded for so little (if he's moved at all).

I'd say maybe a 2nd + 3rd at the very lowest, but we'll soon find out.

 

[IrishInOntario]

I don't see most rentals getting a 1st round pick this year, not when there are about 5 teams with actual money.

Hall and Palmeri might get 1sts but I think that's it and even then I think those 1sts are conditional

I wouldn't move a 1st for Savard, I'm simply suggesting that I expect Columbus to be asking a late 1st in the deal (presumably to a contender.) As I said in another post, I'd probably be comfortable with a 2nd round pick (or equivalent prospect) + a 3rd round pick, from another year.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Presumably, Dermott would go to the "top pair" with Brodie, Muzzin-Holl would become your "2nd pair that's really the #1 pair", and Sandin would play with Bogosian.

As for Holl... realistically, who replaces him? He & Muzzin get very difficult minutes. Personally, I don't think Bogosian is up to it.

Dermott is the guy I'd move up to replace Holl I think Muzzuin and Dermott could work if needed to.

But again this is EXACTLY why I want Savard for this possibility

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I wouldn't move a 1st for Savard, I'm simply suggesting that I expect Columbus to be asking a late 1st in the deal (presumably to a contender.) As I said in another post, I'd probably be comfortable with a 2nd round pick (or equivalent prospect) + a 3rd round pick, from another year.

They can ask all they want but there are about 5 teams that can actual spend money the buyers market is not a big one in a covid season.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

I like Savard, but he's not a huge need. The Leafs defense looks good and unless we're getting a massive upgrade, why give up all the assets? We have Brodie,Holl and Bogosian on the right side and they all slot in well. Savard would be a slight upgrade in an area that's not a big need.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I like Savard, but he's not a huge need. The Leafs defense looks good and unless we're getting a massive upgrade, why give up all the assets? We have Brodie,Holl and Bogosian on the right side and they all slot in well. Savard would be a slight upgrade in an area that's not a big need.

As you saw last year when Muzzuin went down VS Columbus 1 injury to a top 4 D and their f***ed.

That's why you get Savard so that if, and likely when that happens again you aren't f***ed.

You get Savard to protect against not because you need him now.

They are 1 point out of 1st in the league you can make the case they don't NEED anything.

You load up because this is a go for it year and it's time.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

As you saw last year when Muzzuin went down VS Columbus 1 injury to a top 4 D and their f***ed.

That's why you get Savard so that if, and likely when that happens again you aren't f***ed.

You get Savard to protect against not because you need him now.

They are 1 point out of 1st in the league you can make the case they don't NEED anything.

You load up because this is a go for it year and it's time.

Sounds like you're looking for depth, not adding a legit top 4 like Savard.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Sounds like you're looking for depth, not adding a legit top 4 like Savard.

I'm looking for the final piece i think having 5 top 4 caliber D men would be a good thing, I don't care if it's needed or not I want a championship

 

[Contenderorpretender]

Holl has been a beast this year on the second pair. I love the idea of getting someone like savard. But hes not shifting holl down to the bottom pair. He can move up in case of injury.