Post-Game Talk: Dast Axel Jonsson Djallby and Dabulous Martin Dehervary take on the Anaheim Ducks 10:07 pm

[ovikovy817]

Point gained and not lost.
This is the only + in this game.

 

[marcel snapshot]

Props to those of you that stayed up for the whole game

 

[g00n]

Woke up to the expected loss and whinging about VV. Will watch later.

I will say VV does look small in net. I don't know about the complaints of going down too soon as that's probably a complicated situation--either a reflex or maybe even scouting a particular shooter. Hard to say. But I do notice that he doesn't seem to take up as much of the net as Sammy despite being listed as 1 inch shorter (but a fair amount lighter). Could be equipment. Could be conservative play and not taking that extra step out to cut the angle a tiny bit more.

If it's strategy you can be pretty sure it's THE COACH and not the goalie's skill. I don't see fatal flaws in VV's overall skillset if he just gets a little more aggressive on those angles.

 

[Langway]

Ovi in OT, three turnovers. Not good.

He also had CMM alone in front and it didn't register.

I was also shocked McMichael was the last center to see the ice in OT. Schultz should also be the last D used in OT rather than being ahead of Fehervary, Jensen and TVR. Not playing Sprong over numerous rookies in OT is also bonkers. They've got to roll with their fundamentally best two-way players and they refuse. They opt for skill in a vacuum yet then don't apply that logic re: Sprong. It's so random.

 

[g00n]

Coaching can have a profound effect on a goaltender. Remember when Holtby was getting torched short side on odd man rushes with disturbing regularity? He was being coached to cheat toward the pass (I think by Oates or something). Getting rid of that instruction changed his game, and probably Caps (our) history.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

They have had the opportunity to adjust after last season and they chose not too. And...I question the goalie coach selection.

I think they were stuck between a rock and hard place. Either they cut bait on one of the young goalies before really understanding what you're getting from them, especially after Sammy played pretty well in the playoffs, or they go with the same guys who showed improvement and potential (VV and Sammy, respectively) and hope they continue to improve.

Also, they had no cap space to bring in a goaltender so UFA wasn't an option except for guys like Holtby, Halak, Rittich, and Raanta who still would have required cap to leave the team. Not much in the trade market either. Pass on trading a 1st++ for Kuemper like Colorado or trading for Dan Vladar or MAF.

BMac did the sensible thing. Go with two young guys with more experience under their belt and hope one proves capable of being the #1 the team needs. He's shown time and again he's not afraid to shore up a position of weakness if necessary.

And the coaching staff is to blame for keeping Murray employed, not management.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Coaching can have a profound effect on a goaltender. Remember when Holtby was getting torched short side on odd man rushes with disturbing regularity? He was being coached to cheat toward the pass (I think by Oates or something). Getting rid of that instruction changed his game, and probably Caps (our) history.

this just highlights that bad coaching can have a profound impact (just like good) and we know Oates was bad. What’s a non-goaltending coach know about elite-level keeper coaching?

Fire Murray, fire Forsythe…..not sure either move has the impact some (not you) are expecting.

 

[txpd]

2 points

1. After regulation Vanecek's sv% was .926. After overtime. .903. The team stinks in overtime and his overtime results kill his overall numbers.
2. I admit not being a goaltending expert but my understanding is butterfly goaltending is a percentage play, not a reaction play. The goaltender is supposed to go down into the butterfly when the shot comes off the stick, thus taking away the most net. Going down too early allows the puck carrier to continue to move and open up net and going down too late leaves the 5 hole open too long. We can argue about being too far out or too deep in the net but if you are complaing about going down when the shot is taken, that's what butterfly goaltending is.

Last thing. The Caps with 6 rookies and 5 that would not be on a healthy roster played a hot California team to a 2-2 tie and this thread is entirely negative. They survived a terrible situation. The players they have stepped up. Both veterans and fill in rookies. None of that happens without both quality tactics and strategy and successful management and motivation from the coaching staff.

They have another game tonight. Maybe they will actually stink one up.

 

[Marshall]

Just saw VV's save. Dayum.

 

[Devil Dancer]

They were down when I went to bed so this is good news for me!

No Ovie points though.

 

[TheLegendOfPatPeake]

AJF should stay. He is better than Hagelin today. Keep him up. I know they won't but they should.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

2 points

1. After regulation Vanecek's sv% was .926. After overtime. .903. The team stinks in overtime and his overtime results kill his overall numbers.
2. I admit not being a goaltending expert but my understanding is butterfly goaltending is a percentage play, not a reaction play. The goaltender is supposed to go down into the butterfly when the shot comes off the stick, thus taking away the most net. Going down too early allows the puck carrier to continue to move and open up net and going down too late leaves the 5 hole open too long. We can argue about being too far out or too deep in the net but if you are complaing about going down when the shot is taken, that's what butterfly goaltending is.

Last thing. The Caps with 6 rookies and 5 that would not be on a healthy roster played a hot California team to a 2-2 tie and this thread is entirely negative. They survived a terrible situation. The players they have stepped up. Both veterans and fill in rookies. None of that happens without both quality tactics and strategy and successful management and motivation from the coaching staff.

They have another game tonight. Maybe they will actually stink one up.

It's not entirely negative, most of the negative is the goaltender takeover discussion.

Also, I think you're making what's possibly an incorrect observation around this team stinking in OT. Other than record, how do you know the team stinks in OT? Does the team stink in overtime or does Vanecek stink in OT? There's more space to operate and less defensive structure so goalies are less protected. Maybe it highlights how well the Caps are playing during ES. Maybe OT is a more true representation of Vanecek's abilities.

It is also possible to be good and still want to improve. It's also possible to be happy as a fan but also critical of perceived weaknesses. I wouldn't conflate the former with negativity. I love this team and am having a ton of fun watching them but my opinion is that Forsythe sucks and so does Murray and neither of them are deserving of one of the 30 spots in the world that they currently occupy.

 

[TheLegendOfPatPeake]

It's not entirely negative, most of the negative is the goaltender takeover discussion.

Also, I think you're making what's possibly an incorrect observation around this team stinking in OT. Other than record, how do you know the team stinks in OT? Does the team stink in overtime or does Vanecek stink in OT? There's more space to operate and less defensive structure so goalies are less protected. Maybe it highlights how well the Caps are playing during ES. Maybe OT is a more true representation of Vanecek's abilities.

It is also possible to be good and still want to improve. It's also possible to be happy as a fan but also critical of perceived weaknesses. I wouldn't conflate the former with negativity. I love this team and am having a ton of fun watching them but my opinion is that Forsythe sucks and so does Murray and neither of them are deserving of one of the 30 spots in the world that they currently occupy.

This.

It isn't being negative when one points out what they see as weaknesses. That is simply being a fan. Questioning a decision by a team does not make you a bad fan. It makes following a team fun and frankly gives us something to talk about. If we didn't, the entire thread would be just a bunch of lemmings saying how awesome the team is.

 

[txpd]

It's not entirely negative, most of the negative is the goaltender takeover discussion.

Also, I think you're making what's possibly an incorrect observation around this team stinking in OT. Other than record, how do you know the team stinks in OT? Does the team stink in overtime or does Vanecek stink in OT? There's more space to operate and less defensive structure so goalies are less protected. Maybe it highlights how well the Caps are playing during ES. Maybe OT is a more true representation of Vanecek's abilities.

It is also possible to be good and still want to improve. It's also possible to be happy as a fan but also critical of perceived weaknesses. I wouldn't conflate the former with negativity. I love this team and am having a ton of fun watching them but my opinion is that Forsythe sucks and so does Murray and neither of them are deserving of one of the 30 spots in the world that they currently occupy.

Ok, buddy. IIRC the team barely has touched the puck in the previous overtimes. The complaining in here about the overtime play has been heavy. Not the goaltending. But maybe you are right. Its Vanecek.

I see your opinion on Forsythe, but I dont have remotely enough information to go on there. We have no idea what his job description and his level of authority is. Listening to him talk, Laviolette sounds like he is making the personel changes on the pp. Maybe he is just taking credit as a staff for Forsythe's moves and maybe Forsythe runs pp practice and is responsible for pp changes on the bench but doesnt do strategy and tactics. Some GM's run the show. Some GM's just do what the team President tells them to do. All I know for sure is that in a business where head coaches want their own staffs Forsythe is retained by one Caps HC after another. I would think there is a reason for that. Either he is an unmatched pp guru or he has no responsibility there at all and has made himself irreplaceable in other less high profile ways. Its my guess that he is a video wizard, but thats only a guess.

 

[Langway]

AJF should stay. He is better than Hagelin today. Keep him up. I know they won't but they should.

At this rate he'll hit the waiver threshold without much of a problem unless they let that alone dictate sending him down. He's higher on the depth chart than Leason, Protas & Pilon so I think he stays. It's more a question of whether that eventually pushes Irwin off the roster or if it means waiving Hagelin eventually. But that's a way off and not worth thinking too much about until Mantha or Backstrom are back. I hope they start working him into the PK more to see whether that change is viable all-around.

 

[TheLegendOfPatPeake]

At this rate he'll hit the waiver threshold without much of a problem unless they let that alone dictate sending him down. He's higher on the depth chart than Leason, Protas & Pilon so I think he stays. It's more a question of whether that eventually pushes Irwin off the roster or if it means waiving Hagelin eventually. But that's a way off and not worth thinking too much about until Mantha or Backstrom are back. I hope they start working him into the PK more to see whether that change is viable all-around.

I loved his play. He is been getting better every game, and even showed he can be physical.

 

[Hivemind]

1. After regulation Vanecek's sv% was .926. After overtime. .903. The team stinks in overtime and his overtime results kill his overall numbers.

Overtime saves are the highest leverage saves in the entire game. You fail to make a save in overtime, your team loses out on a potential standings point. It's really that simple. Writing them off as something not important to goalie evaluation as you have done repeatedly (despite them still being at an even-strength scenario) doesn't seem legitimate.

To be a starting goaltender in the NHL, especially on a team with aspirations to win series in the playoffs, you need to be able to make some of the big saves not just the ones with your defense protecting you. So far VV's results in high leverage situations and defensive breakdowns aren't super encouraging. None of our goalies' results in those situations are.

Also, the first goal in regulation was 100% on Vanecek. If he makes that save, they don't have to go to OT.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Ok, buddy. IIRC the team barely has touched the puck in the previous overtimes. The complaining in here about the overtime play has been heavy. Not the goaltending. But maybe you are right. Its Vanecek.

I see your opinion on Forsythe, but I dont have remotely enough information to go on there. We have no idea what his job description and his level of authority is. Listening to him talk, Laviolette sounds like he is making the personel changes on the pp. Maybe he is just taking credit as a staff for Forsythe's moves and maybe Forsythe runs pp practice and is responsible for pp changes on the bench but doesnt do strategy and tactics. Some GM's run the show. Some GM's just do what the team President tells them to do. All I know for sure is that in a business where head coaches want their own staffs Forsythe is retained by one Caps HC after another. I would think there is a reason for that. Either he is an unmatched pp guru or he has no responsibility there at all and has made himself irreplaceable in other less high profile ways. Its my guess that he is a video wizard, but thats only a guess.

Buddy? Hmm, no need for that, unless I misread your tone which is entirely possible on the internet. I asked what you're using to support that the team stinks in OT because it's not clear to me who is at fault here and the basis for your assertion was the complaining you were just complaining about. Doesn't add a lot to the debate.

Losing a faceoff in OT is worse than losing a faceoff in regulation and they're down their two (and now three) best pivots in terms of faceoffs, as well as Oshie who takes almost all draws when the drop is on his backhand. So yeah, they're not going to have the puck to start as much, but your goalie still needs to make saves. Just like your goalie often times needs to be your best penalty killer. It's not possible to play perfect hockey and goalies need to bail their teammates out. Right now Vanny doesn't do that in OT.

I was a lacrosse goalie and saving 65% meant you were one of the best in the sport at your level. "Save all the shots you should and some of the ones you shouldn't" was the mantra. In hockey it's not a lot different but the probability of success per shot is much lower so I would say the mantra is "Save all the shots you should and most of the ones you shouldn't." Right now I don't have a lot of confidence that any goalie we have saves all the ones they should and most of the ones they shouldn't.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

It's not entirely negative, most of the negative is the goaltender takeover discussion.

Also, I think you're making what's possibly an incorrect observation around this team stinking in OT. Other than record, how do you know the team stinks in OT? Does the team stink in overtime or does Vanecek stink in OT? There's more space to operate and less defensive structure so goalies are less protected. Maybe it highlights how well the Caps are playing during ES. Maybe OT is a more true representation of Vanecek's abilities.

It is also possible to be good and still want to improve. It's also possible to be happy as a fan but also critical of perceived weaknesses. I wouldn't conflate the former with negativity. I love this team and am having a ton of fun watching them but my opinion is that Forsythe sucks and so does Murray and neither of them are deserving of one of the 30 spots in the world that they currently occupy.

That’s a new one….

OT is the true test…

Not buying it.

Seems very fashionable to blame coaching for individual failures such as those of Sammy. On the flip side, you have what most expected was at best an AHL starter/NHL backup in Vanny, playing pretty well thrust into a starter role.

Might as well start asking to fire GMBM and Lavi because Murray and Forsythe’s continued employment is on those two.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Buddy? Hmm, no need for that, unless I misread your tone which is entirely possible on the internet. I asked what you're using to support that the team stinks in OT because it's not clear to me who is at fault here and the basis for your assertion was the complaining you were just complaining about. Doesn't add a lot to the debate.

Losing a faceoff in OT is worse than losing a faceoff in regulation and they're down their two (and now three) best pivots in terms of faceoffs, as well as Oshie who takes almost all draws when the drop is on his backhand. So yeah, they're not going to have the puck to start as much, but your goalie still needs to make saves. Just like your goalie often times needs to be your best penalty killer. It's not possible to play perfect hockey and goalies need to bail their teammates out. Right now Vanny doesn't do that in OT.

I was a lacrosse goalie and saving 65% meant you were one of the best in the sport at your level. "Save all the shots you should and some of the ones you shouldn't" was the mantra. In hockey it's not a lot different but the probability of success per shot is much lower so I would say the mantra is "Save all the shots you should and most of the ones you shouldn't." Right now I don't have a lot of confidence that any goalie we have saves all the ones they should and most of the ones they shouldn't.

It’s not clear to you when we often barely touch the puck in OT and get skated circles around? Come on….

Somehow that’s possibly on Vanny? SMH….

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

That’s a new one….

OT is the true test…

Not buying it.

Seems very fashionable to blame coaching for individual failures such as those of Sammy. On the flip side, you have what most expected was at best an AHL starter/NHL backup in Vanny, playing pretty well thrust into a starter role.

Might as well start asking to fire GMBM and Lavi because Murray and Forsythe’s continued employment is on those two.

You conveniently chose not to highlight "maybe" when you quoted the post, which completely changes the context of the post. True or false: goalies are more exposed in OT than in regulation?

Seems very fashionable also to discount the real impact coaches have on players, especially young one. You're totally right that players bare a huge responsibility for their own development but coaching and environment play a huge role as well.

 

[Hivemind]

I think they were stuck between a rock and hard place. Either they cut bait on one of the young goalies before really understanding what you're getting from them, especially after Sammy played pretty well in the playoffs, or they go with the same guys who showed improvement and potential (VV and Sammy, respectively) and hope they continue to improve.

Also, they had no cap space to bring in a goaltender so UFA wasn't an option except for guys like Holtby, Halak, Rittich, and Raanta who still would have required cap to leave the team. Not much in the trade market either. Pass on trading a 1st++ for Kuemper like Colorado or trading for Dan Vladar or MAF.

BMac did the sensible thing. Go with two young guys with more experience under their belt and hope one proves capable of being the #1 the team needs. He's shown time and again he's not afraid to shore up a position of weakness if necessary.

And the coaching staff is to blame for keeping Murray employed, not management.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to blame management for the cap situation that led to this team having the third cheapest goaltending tandem in the NHL (and the in-net performances that are largely in-line with having the third cheapest goaltending tandem in the NHL). I know there was plenty of us rooting for the team to offload a $2.75M 4th liner or $4M 3rd pairing defender to make space for a platoon starter on a short deal like Bernier, Reimer, Andersen, Brossoit, or Raanta. But management didn't, and the team was forced into running it back with the young tandem. And even that scenario wasn't entirely by design. Who knows what's going on in the Capitals net right now if Seattle doesn't sign Grubauer in free agency.

It's become increasingly apparent that Scott Murray isn't the answer at goalie coach, and he's not some Laviolette pet coach. He predates the Lavi administration and management kept him around when Lavi was hired, so I don't see why management couldn't get involved in firing him. Murray's tenure has been anything but smooth. Holtby struggled under him to the point where Mitch Korn had to be dragged out of retirement to fix Holtby prior to the 2018 playoffs. Holtby struggled under him again after Korn left. Samsonov's development has gone sideways under Murray. Vanecek has some encouraging signs, but the same warts in his game have persisted, and there's tons of common warts between both Sammy and Vitek that should be fixed but aren't (tracking the puck beneath the goal line, puck handling, economy of movement). It's a stark contrast to the game we saw from Fucale, who displayed much better in terms of puck handling and economy of movement (even if he wasn't tested as much). Why is the guy working with our AHL goalie coach (Alex Westlund) displaying sharper technical aspects than our guys working under the NHL goalie coach?

 

[IafrateOvie34]

This team doesn’t understand 3 on 3. Low percentage shot, pinches and passes that give up possession. I despise was 3 on 3 has turned into from an entertainment standpoint.. but they need to be better at it.

Hopefully, those teams that depend on 3 on 3 to win games don't make the playoffs or bounced in the 1st round. It's not normal hockey.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

You conveniently chose not to highlight "maybe" when you quoted the post, which completely changes the context of the post. True or false: goalies are more exposed in OT than in regulation?

Seems very fashionable also to discount the real impact coaches have on players, especially young one. You're totally right that players bare a huge responsibility for their own development but coaching and environment play a huge role as well.

Define exposed….and why are we trying to establish that?

it doesn’t really for me, nothing changes….it’s all there for all to read. Nothing more than a simple quick highlighting error, not obscuring anything….

I believe coaches impact players…..didn’t realize we had to acknowledge the rather obvious, but sure, I’ve done that now.

what do you have to support that this is on the coaching staff?

I think Leonsis looks at this roster and their standing in the league today and thinks to himself “not bad at all with a skeleton crew, two partially developed goalies, and a PP that can do better”……

Around here, we’re looking for ways to fire two coaches, cut Hags, trade Schultz, trade Carlson, trade Mantha, etc…..

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to blame management for the cap situation that led to this team having the third cheapest goaltending tandem in the NHL (and the in-net performances that are largely in-line with having the third cheapest goaltending tandem in the NHL). I know there was plenty of us rooting for the team to offload a $2.75M 4th liner or $4M 3rd pairing defender to make space for a platoon starter on a short deal like Bernier, Reimer, Andersen, Brossoit, or Raanta. But management didn't, and the team was forced into running it back with the young tandem. And even that scenario wasn't entirely by design. Who knows what's going on in the Capitals net right now if Seattle doesn't sign Grubauer in free agency.

It's become increasingly apparent that Scott Murray isn't the answer at goalie coach, and he's not some Laviolette pet coach. He predates the Lavi administration and management kept him around when Lavi was hired, so I don't see why management couldn't get involved in firing him. Murray's tenure has been anything but smooth. Holtby struggled under him to the point where Mitch Korn had to be dragged out of retirement to fix Holtby prior to the 2018 playoffs. Holtby struggled under him again after Korn left. Samsonov's development has gone sideways under Murray. Vanecek has some encouraging signs, but the same warts in his game have persisted, and there's tons of common warts between both Sammy and Vitek that should be fixed but aren't (tracking the puck beneath the goal line, puck handling, economy of movement). It's a stark contrast to the game we saw from Fucale, who displayed much better in terms of puck handling and economy of movement (even if he wasn't tested as much). Why is the guy working with our AHL goalie coach (Alex Westlund) displaying sharper technical aspects than our guys working under the NHL goalie coach?

I don't disagree they deserve to be scrutinized. We also don't know what the conversations were between Lavi and BMac regarding roster needs. Maybe they decided to play out the first 25 games and then make moves if necessary from there. BMac straight up told TEB that the next 10 games would go a long way in deciding which direction they went in goal.

We also saw the price of offloading a $2.75M fourth liner in a flat cap world when we offloaded Panik. If you don't want a $4M 3rd pairing defender or a $2.75M fourth liner, why do you think other teams would want them?

I'm firmly in wait and see mode. BMac has consistently, year after year, made moves if they've identified weaknesses and he's not afraid to make a big move. If they decide goaltending needs to be upgraded he'll go do it.