Confirmed with Link: Danny DeKeyser re-signed 6 years 30 million

[Ezekial]

Bigger
Younger
Right handed
Same term
Less money

The main problem is that Detroit overpaid market value(currently) for Dekeyser. They didn't get a hometown discount for a player thats a solid top 4 (currently).

I keep saying currently because he could improve, but at 26 going on 27, I don't see a whole lot of improvement.

Buying 3 more UFA years had an impact on the contract

 

[Shaman464]

No. Getting DeKeyser for 5 instead of 4 or Mrazek for 4 instead of 3.5 isn't why they're in dire straits.

It's giving 4.25M to Ericsson to be worthless. It's being locked into 6M forever on Zetterberg when he's nosedived off a cliff in terms of effectiveness. It's giving 3.85M to Helm for 5 years when he was producing, at best, at a clip commiserate with his 2.125 cap hit.

It's Howard turning from an above average NHL starter to Vesa Toskala almost immediately after signing his 6 year extension (due to injury, in the most part).

If you play hardball with DeKeyser and get another million, you're still paying Ericsson 4.25 to be straight up trash. If you hammer down Mrazek to 3 or 3.5... you're still giving Howard 5.3.

Pin Glenny down to 1M instead of 1.8 and you're still giving Abby, Nyquist, and Helm 12.6M combined.

And lastly, advanced stats have said that Jakub Kindl and Brendan Smith were borderline top pairing guys. Forgive me if I don't just blindly subscribe to them. Danny D is a very good #3/#4 and a viable guy to play on the top pairing. He's basically a defensive version of 2008 Kronwall. Could play on a top pairing or be really really good on a middle pairing.

This contract wouldn't be bad if it were in isolation, but, that's the issue, this is death by a thousand **** contracts.

As for DDK's abilities, he's not a top pairing guy. There is no one other than extreme homers who think that he's got top pairing talent. His offensive abilities are nearly non-existent, and his defense is good, but not elite. From day one, most people had him rightly pegged as a great middle pairing guy, can eat minutes, but won't drive play, won't rack up points, but a guy every team needs to anchor a middle pairing. You don't pay those guys 30 million dollars.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

This contract wouldn't be bad if it were in isolation, but, that's the issue, this is death by a thousand **** contracts.

As for DDK's abilities, he's not a top pairing guy. There is no one other than extreme homers who think that he's got top pairing talent. His offensive abilities are nearly non-existent, and his defense is good, but not elite. From day one, most people had him rightly pegged as a great middle pairing guy, can eat minutes, but won't drive play, won't rack up points, but a guy every team needs to anchor a middle pairing. You don't pay those guys 30 million dollars.

No. It's a death by a bunch of big dollar amounts that turned bad. Death by a thousand cuts means that not one of the things is really that awful, but the aggregate is terrible. Here, there are a couple just purely AWFUL deals that are complete boat anchors due to injury or CBA ramifications.

And no... you don't pay those guys 30M... in the early 2000s. In 2016, you do. It's the same thing as paying a fifth starter in baseball between 8-10 million to be an innings eater and to just not be terrible. That's what the market value for that kind of player is. Just like a Stamkos, Toews, Kane, Perry level of player is gonna get 9-10+ now. Stamkos gave a "break" because the money he's getting is the same whether it's 8.5M in Florida or 12M in Toronto.

 

[HockeyinHD]

As for DDK's abilities, he's not a top pairing guy.

Enh. Lot's of teams have guys like DK in their 2/3 conversation.

There is no one other than extreme homers who think that he's got top pairing talent. His offensive abilities are nearly non-existent, and his defense is good, but not elite. From day one, most people had him rightly pegged as a great middle pairing guy, can eat minutes, but won't drive play, won't rack up points, but a guy every team needs to anchor a middle pairing. You don't pay those guys 30 million dollars.

Yeah, you're being both a little hard on DK and a little unaware of what guys like DK make. Jason Demers just signed for 5 years 22.5, and DK is both better and younger. Last year Beauchamin signed for 4 and 13.5, Dillon signed an RFA deal for 5 and 16.5, Martin signed for 4 and 19.5, Oduya for 2 and 7.5, Sekera for 6 and 33.

You won't find a lot of DK comparables who sign for less than 4.5 that he isn't better than.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Enh. Lot's of teams have guys like DK in their 2/3 conversation.



Yeah, you're being both a little hard on DK and a little unaware of what guys like DK make. Jason Demers just signed for 5 years 22.5, and DK is both better and younger. Last year Beauchamin signed for 4 and 13.5, Dillon signed an RFA deal for 5 and 16.5, Martin signed for 4 and 19.5, Oduya for 2 and 7.5, Sekera for 6 and 33.

You won't find a lot of DK comparables who sign for less than 4.5 that he isn't better than.

demers is better and has all UFA years.

 

[Frk It]

demers is better and has all UFA years.

If you think Demers is better why didn't you advocate for signing him?

Felt like I was the only one that wanted him there for awhile.

 

[Ezekial]

I certainly would rather have DDK over Demers, but Demer's contact is definitely more palatable.
The thing is I think DDK can play better hockey than Demers, I know on hf players don't develop after they turn 26 but I don't subscribe to that way of thinking.

 

[InjuredChoker]

If you think Demers is better why didn't you advocate for signing him?

Felt like I was the only one that wanted him there for awhile.

i did.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=117298253&postcount=92

i like demers but wouldn't touch goligoski on a long-term deal.

but demers could be one of the few good RHDs on the market and might get petry deal.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=120346705&postcount=861

that demers contract pisses me off to no end.

though there is a chance he had no interest in coming here.

might have been some other posts too.



basically i didn't think wings would have enough cap space to sign him and he wouldn't be interested in coming here/thought dallas would re-sign him.


edit. didn't find it but i'm pretty sure i mentioned demers more often. that thread/post might have gotten deleted or something. or typo in demers name.

 

[Run the Jewels]

No. Getting DeKeyser for 5 instead of 4 or Mrazek for 4 instead of 3.5 isn't why they're in dire straits.

It's giving 4.25M to Ericsson to be worthless. It's being locked into 6M forever on Zetterberg when he's nosedived off a cliff in terms of effectiveness. It's giving 3.85M to Helm for 5 years when he was producing, at best, at a clip commiserate with his 2.125 cap hit.

It's Howard turning from an above average NHL starter to Vesa Toskala almost immediately after signing his 6 year extension (due to injury, in the most part).

If you play hardball with DeKeyser and get another million, you're still paying Ericsson 4.25 to be straight up trash. If you hammer down Mrazek to 3 or 3.5... you're still giving Howard 5.3.

Pin Glenny down to 1M instead of 1.8 and you're still giving Abby, Nyquist, and Helm 12.6M combined.

Yeah, there is certainly legitimate criticism for the deal they offered DeKeyser. However if you have a problem with that deal I have a hard time seeing how you wouldn't view Z, Mule, Ericsson, Howard, Abby and Helm's deals being much, much worse. It's just bad contract after bad contract. Every one of those guys is either currently an albatross or is going to be one within the next 2 years. There is no future, it's just ride these guys and once the bottom falls out there's no end in sight.

At least with DeKeyser he should still be a solid middle pairing guy and more or less be worth the chunk of the salary cap his contract occupies. I have a hard time seing him become a #5-7 d-man, particularly on this squad.

 

[Shaman464]

Yeah, there is certainly legitimate criticism for the deal they offered DeKeyser. However if you have a problem with that deal I have a hard time seeing how you wouldn't view Z, Mule, Ericsson, Howard, Abby and Helm's deals being much, much worse. It's just bad contract after bad contract. Every one of those guys is either currently an albatross or is going to be one within the next 2 years. There is no future, it's just ride these guys and once the bottom falls out there's no end in sight.

At least with DeKeyser he should still be a solid middle pairing guy and more or less be worth the chunk of the salary cap his contract occupies. I have a hard time seing him become a #5-7 d-man, particularly on this squad.

The issue is that every player is overpaid. When you add up how much each is overpaid compared to what they bring you have a top player's worth of salary.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The issue is that every player is overpaid. When you add up how much each is overpaid compared to what they bring you have a top player's worth of salary.

A top player that isn't available to us..

 

[jkutswings]

A top player that isn't available to us..

As a current UFA, no. But cap space would allow for signing RFA offer sheets and more trade flexibility as well.

It's more the mentality than anything. Why on earth would you want to spend right to the cap, if the roster is still very pedestrian, with very little chance at even getting out of the first round? Either go full tilt if you're a legit contender, or allow yourself some breathing room to improve for the long-term.

 

[Pavels Dog]

As a current UFA, no. But cap space would allow for signing RFA offer sheets and more trade flexibility as well.

It's more the mentality than anything. Why on earth would you want to spend right to the cap, if the roster is still very pedestrian, with very little chance at even getting out of the first round? Either go full tilt if you're a legit contender, or allow yourself some breathing room to improve for the long-term.

How often do RFA offer sheets happen? Trade flexibility, sure that's a good thing. But if there was a trade out there for an elite player and salary was the only issue, we could probably work around it. Part of having trade flexibility is also to have enough good players that you can move some of them. Imo some of the signings we've made make guys like Sheahan/Tatar/Nyquist more expendable than they were previously.

We spend to the cap because that's the kind of team we are. The roster may be pedestrian in your eyes but it's still got NHL talent from top to bottom. Empty cap space doesn't really add up to anything useful in terms of the future unless you're aiming for a tank, which we're not.
I'm pretty sure ownership wants to ice competitive teams and even when Holland has basically sat on his hands and said "let the chips fall where they may", this team has still clawed their way into the playoffs. There seems to be too much fight in the players on this team for them to fall way down in the standings. So why not try to do what you can to fill the team with good players, so that if a couple of our kids break out or take another step forward, we could instantly become a very good team?

 

[jkutswings]

How often do RFA offer sheets happen? Trade flexibility, sure that's a good thing. But if there was a trade out there for an elite player and salary was the only issue, we could probably work around it. Part of having trade flexibility is also to have enough good players that you can move some of them. Imo some of the signings we've made make guys like Sheahan/Tatar/Nyquist more expendable than they were previously.

We spend to the cap because that's the kind of team we are. The roster may be pedestrian in your eyes but it's still got NHL talent from top to bottom. Empty cap space doesn't really add up to anything useful in terms of the future unless you're aiming for a tank, which we're not.
I'm pretty sure ownership wants to ice competitive teams and even when Holland has basically sat on his hands and said "let the chips fall where they may", this team has still clawed their way into the playoffs. There seems to be too much fight in the players on this team for them to fall way down in the standings. So why not try to do what you can to fill the team with good players, so that if a couple of our kids break out or take another step forward, we could instantly become a very good team?

Because to do that, I think they'd need 3-4 to break out, including 2 on defense, and I don't see a single player or prospect that has that ceiling in at least the next 2-3 years, possibly longer.

It's waiting for something that I think is never arriving with the current approach.

 

[Fear]

How often do RFA offer sheets happen? Trade flexibility, sure that's a good thing. But if there was a trade out there for an elite player and salary was the only issue, we could probably work around it. Part of having trade flexibility is also to have enough good players that you can move some of them. Imo some of the signings we've made make guys like Sheahan/Tatar/Nyquist more expendable than they were previously.

We spend to the cap because that's the kind of team we are. The roster may be pedestrian in your eyes but it's still got NHL talent from top to bottom. Empty cap space doesn't really add up to anything useful in terms of the future unless you're aiming for a tank, which we're not.
I'm pretty sure ownership wants to ice competitive teams and even when Holland has basically sat on his hands and said "let the chips fall where they may", this team has still clawed their way into the playoffs. There seems to be too much fight in the players on this team for them to fall way down in the standings. So why not try to do what you can to fill the team with good players, so that if a couple of our kids break out or take another step forward, we could instantly become a very good team?

If this happens, those players are gonna need big raises. Being capped out is not bad for a year, but when so much money is tied up for the next 3-4 years in non-essential players you're gonna have a real hard time keeping these young players.

 

[Shaman464]

How often do RFA offer sheets happen? Trade flexibility, sure that's a good thing. But if there was a trade out there for an elite player and salary was the only issue, we could probably work around it. Part of having trade flexibility is also to have enough good players that you can move some of them. Imo some of the signings we've made make guys like Sheahan/Tatar/Nyquist more expendable than they were previously.

We spend to the cap because that's the kind of team we are. The roster may be pedestrian in your eyes but it's still got NHL talent from top to bottom. Empty cap space doesn't really add up to anything useful in terms of the future unless you're aiming for a tank, which we're not.
I'm pretty sure ownership wants to ice competitive teams and even when Holland has basically sat on his hands and said "let the chips fall where they may", this team has still clawed their way into the playoffs. There seems to be too much fight in the players on this team for them to fall way down in the standings. So why not try to do what you can to fill the team with good players, so that if a couple of our kids break out or take another step forward, we could instantly become a very good team?

No Detroit is aiming to overpay mediocre players to limp into the playoffs. Much better use of the money.

The issue is that committing so much to easily replaceable players sends the wrong kind of message to UFAs looking to come to Detroit. It doesn't show a commitment to competing, it shows this is a retirement home for those drafted by Detroit.

Worse, is that it sets precedence. If Larkin keeps up his play, or any our other prospects break out, do you think they will want to take under or market value when Helm, Abdelkader and DeKeyser are making above market? No, they will squeeze Holland for every cent, or they will walk away. If Helm makes nearly 4 million a Helm with hands in Detroit will make Stamkos money.

 

[SoupGuru]

In my opinion, a lot of you are highly underestimating DeKeyser's skill. Look at the team as a whole before you judge his personal stats. He was literally the only guy that could play decent defense last year. I'd love to get someone on the team that can help share the load and free him up for a few more o-zone starts or other team's 3rd lines, etc.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Barrie re ups with Colorado for four years x 5.5 million.

50 point defenseman that is one year younger than DD.

DD has 234 games played.

Barrie has 264 games played.

I feel like those two should have their contracts switched.

 

[Classicnamesup]

Certainly like the DK deal less after that

 

[Pavels Dog]

Because to do that, I think they'd need 3-4 to break out, including 2 on defense, and I don't see a single player or prospect that has that ceiling in at least the next 2-3 years, possibly longer.

It's waiting for something that I think is never arriving with the current approach.

You're probably underestimating the potential in our system. Larkin could be a legit #1C next year or within 2-3 years for sure, it would surprise no one (except maybe you). Mantha and AA are both on the verge of breaking through, Svechnikov is a guy that has potential to make a quick transition. And that's completely disregarding the fact that we may not have seen the best from Sheahan, Jurco, Tatar etc.

On D we have less potential but other than a trade, there's still the chance Russo, XO or Sproul turns into something. Saarijarvi and Cholowski may be getting there within 2-3 years.

We don't need tons of guys to break out. 1-2 forwards and 1 d-man taking a big step forward would go a long way.

If this happens, those players are gonna need big raises. Being capped out is not bad for a year, but when so much money is tied up for the next 3-4 years in non-essential players you're gonna have a real hard time keeping these young players.

That is the least of our issues. If some kids break out we are in a great position. Worst case we would need to bite the bullet on some buy-outs or cap-retention deals, but those kids would still be on solid deals given their RFA status so we'd be fine.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

Barrie re ups with Colorado for four years x 5.5 million.

50 point defenseman that is one year younger than DD.

DD has 234 games played.

Barrie has 264 games played.

I feel like those two should have their contracts switched.

But Dekeyser is signed longer, which means more value over the course of the deal.

-Ken Holland.

 

[HockeyinHD]

The issue is that every player is overpaid. When you add up how much each is overpaid compared to what they bring you have a top player's worth of salary.

If you compare what every player brings here compared to what people are paid for what they bring elsewhere, you find out they really aren't overpaid in the first place.

There are exceptions, of course (Helm, Howard), but league wide the price for players is pretty high. Citing the absence of hometown discounts in how current player are paid is a bit unfair of a standard to use in assessing performance of the front office.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Barrie re ups with Colorado for four years x 5.5 million.

50 point defenseman that is one year younger than DD.

DD has 234 games played.

Barrie has 264 games played.

I feel like those two should have their contracts switched.

And you'll probably feel that way right up until the day before Barrie's shorter deal expires and he asks for 7+ a year next.

And you really like a guy who was a 3rd worst on the whole team -16 last year.

And he only had 8 more ES points than DK last year.

Barrie's not bad, and Detroit really needs an offensive guy like him on the blue line if Green and/or Kronwall can't generate offense anymore, but a 1 v 1 comparison with DK doesn't help Barrie out much.

 

[Shaman464]

And you'll probably feel that way right up until the day before Barrie's shorter deal expires and he asks for 7+ a year next.

And you really like a guy who was a 3rd worst on the whole team -16 last year.

And he only had 8 more ES points than DK last year.

Barrie's not bad, and Detroit really needs an offensive guy like him on the blue line if Green and/or Kronwall can't generate offense anymore, but a 1 v 1 comparison with DK doesn't help Barrie out much.

Plus/minus is a **** stat.

Barrie's future deal doesn't invalidate the fact that for what he brings his contract is better.

8 more ES points? Well over the last two seasons he has literally twice as many points. 51 vs 102. So, cherry pick all you want, but Barrie brings twice the points and similar defense for 500k more.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Plus/minus is a **** stat.

Barrie's future deal doesn't invalidate the fact that for what he brings his contract is better.

8 more ES points? Well over the last two seasons he has literally twice as many points. 51 vs 102. So, cherry pick all you want, but Barrie brings twice the points and similar defense for 500k more.

Barrie plays for a team who plays run and gun. The whole team is offensively oriented. Of course he's going to score more points. He plays way more on the PP than does DeKeyser and with generally superior forwards to pass the puck to.

It is horribly simplistic to say "Barrie scores twice as many points so he's so much better" as that ignores usage and team strategy and also the fact that Tyson Barrie's Corsi numbers are straight up ****. They are garbage. For being so much better offensively, shouldn't he outdo DeKeyser in the possession game?

Oh wait, he's on a team that utilizes his skills as essentially a fourth forward who occasionally plays defense and DeKeyser is on a team that requires him to be stapled to the defensive zone to cover for the mistakes of a Quincey or Smith or similar.

Barrie's deal is a better value because even though the usage is way wonky, you can't argue a 50 point gap by just that. However, it's not likely Barrie yay x1000 and DeKeyser boo x1000.

Both are heavily relied upon by their rosters for different reasons. To piss and moan about Colorado getting so much better value is just pissing and moaning to piss and moan. And even though you don't value the extra two years of cheap play... NHL GMs do.