OT: Coronavirus Thread (MOD Warning Post #19)

[CapitalsCupReality]

you also said New York handled Covid better than Florida - factually wrong. New York just as many cases/deaths/etc while having 700% more business closures for good.

Look - they said Covid would stop from spreading and you can’t get it if vaccinated. Those were exact words from the President.

we aren’t talking about if vaccines prevent you from going to the hospital more. Yes, it does - but nothing proving that for people under 45 - and it’s not what was advertised.

the vaccines don’t work. No other vaccine doesn’t protect you from getting it, doesn’t stop you from spreading it, and required other people who aren’t vaccinated to be shunned from certain ways of life.

it’s a fraud.

then again, in two of your points you mentioned New York Times and CNN - so this is all making sense.

If you’re vaccinated and wear a mask - you should be good from Covid. That’s the point. That’s just not the case - and every other week more details come out how this isn’t working.

if it did - places in lockdown and 80-90%+ vaccinated wouldn’t still have breakouts/tons of cases.

so we shouldn’t keep pushing vaccines like we are and mandating people to get them. We should be mandating these vaccine companies make a better vaccine. Not bailing them out for the more they’re ineffective.

Your crazy if you think if 100% of people were vaccinated this would be better. Look at Johnson and Johnson. FDA passed just months ago - now has serious medical conditions.

look at the VAERS website.

More children have died In car accidents than Covid too. Yet they’re PUSHING for mandatory vaccines in 5 year olds.

zero long term proven anything with these vaccines - so that’s my point. People defending the vaccine like it solved this are wrong.

By end of January you’ll see as many hospitalizations from vaccinated as unvaccinated people. Then I’m sure your narrative/goal post will go to “that’s why you need another booster - your fourth in a year” opposed to actual real treatments talk or people not being fat, out of shape, and having other medial issues caused by not taking care of themselves (these types of people along with very old people/people with other unfortunate medical conditions) are the ones dying 99% of the time. Again, it’s why no young people are dying/literally zero pro North American athletes who take care of themselves/are healthy otherwise

but if you say being fat is bad you get shamed. When heart attacks/etc fill up hospitals way more/kill more people. Same thing about smoking or alcohol. If they cared about public health those would be “illegal” too as they are a risk to yourself and others.... but people like McDonald’s, smoking, and alcohol (including me with some of that), so they don’t bring that up.


We should not be rewarding these vaccine companies when what they originally said/showed studies for are completely wrong and way worse than they promised. That’s my issue.

anyone know what the definition of vaccination is??? Because by the definition - these vaccines are not vaccinations. The literal definition is: “To inoculate with a vaccine in order to produce immunity to an infectious disease, such as diphtheria or typhus.”

immunity isn’t what it is. Wasn’t what was told. Wasn’t what they sold millions of people on. The goal posts have been moved - that’s fine... but it’s not a vaccine if that’s the case.

sorry if someone sold you and your friends magic beans…..but yours is a scary perspective.

 

[HTFN]

you also said New York handled Covid better than Florida - factually wrong. New York just as many cases/deaths/etc while having 700% more business closures for good.

Look - they said Covid would stop from spreading and you can’t get it if vaccinated. Those were exact words from the President.

we aren’t talking about if vaccines prevent you from going to the hospital more. Yes, it does - but nothing proving that for people under 45 - and it’s not what was advertised.

the vaccines don’t work. No other vaccine doesn’t protect you from getting it, doesn’t stop you from spreading it, and required other people who aren’t vaccinated to be shunned from certain ways of life.

it’s a fraud.

then again, in two of your points you mentioned New York Times and CNN - so this is all making sense.

If you’re vaccinated and wear a mask - you should be good from Covid. That’s the point. That’s just not the case - and every other week more details come out how this isn’t working.

if it did - places in lockdown and 80-90%+ vaccinated wouldn’t still have breakouts/tons of cases.

so we shouldn’t keep pushing vaccines like we are and mandating people to get them. We should be mandating these vaccine companies make a better vaccine. Not bailing them out for the more they’re ineffective.

Your crazy if you think if 100% of people were vaccinated this would be better. Look at Johnson and Johnson. FDA passed just months ago - now has serious medical conditions.

look at the VAERS website.

More children have died In car accidents than Covid too. Yet they’re PUSHING for mandatory vaccines in 5 year olds.

zero long term proven anything with these vaccines - so that’s my point. People defending the vaccine like it solved this are wrong.

By end of January you’ll see as many hospitalizations from vaccinated as unvaccinated people. Then I’m sure your narrative/goal post will go to “that’s why you need another booster - your fourth in a year” opposed to actual real treatments talk or people not being fat, out of shape, and having other medial issues caused by not taking care of themselves (these types of people along with very old people/people with other unfortunate medical conditions) are the ones dying 99% of the time. Again, it’s why no young people are dying/literally zero pro North American athletes who take care of themselves/are healthy otherwise

but if you say being fat is bad you get shamed. When heart attacks/etc fill up hospitals way more/kill more people. Same thing about smoking or alcohol. If they cared about public health those would be “illegal” too as they are a risk to yourself and others.... but people like McDonald’s, smoking, and alcohol (including me with some of that), so they don’t bring that up.


We should not be rewarding these vaccine companies when what they originally said/showed studies for are completely wrong and way worse than they promised. That’s my issue.

anyone know what the definition of vaccination is??? Because by the definition - these vaccines are not vaccinations. The literal definition is: “To inoculate with a vaccine in order to produce immunity to an infectious disease, such as diphtheria or typhus.”

immunity isn’t what it is. Wasn’t what was told. Wasn’t what they sold millions of people on. The goal posts have been moved - that’s fine... but it’s not a vaccine if that’s the case.

How can you even pretend like efficacy of the vaccine is the problem when people couldn’t even get other people to take it? How is it not connecting for you that that’s the reason there are new variants, and that these quotes you’re calling bullshit almost all presupposed everyone would actually take the thing?

we’re sitting in a rowboat calling people liars and frauds for saying it can get to the other side of the lake when half the oars won’t paddle. People aren’t wrong for saying the boat can work like a boat but you need all the parts to cooperate.

 

[Ridley Simon]

you also said New York handled Covid better than Florida - factually wrong. New York just as many cases/deaths/etc while having 700% more business closures for good.

Look - they said Covid would stop from spreading and you can’t get it if vaccinated. Those were exact words from the President.

we aren’t talking about if vaccines prevent you from going to the hospital more. Yes, it does - but nothing proving that for people under 45 - and it’s not what was advertised.

the vaccines don’t work. No other vaccine doesn’t protect you from getting it, doesn’t stop you from spreading it, and required other people who aren’t vaccinated to be shunned from certain ways of life.

it’s a fraud.

then again, in two of your points you mentioned New York Times and CNN - so this is all making sense.

If you’re vaccinated and wear a mask - you should be good from Covid. That’s the point. That’s just not the case - and every other week more details come out how this isn’t working.

if it did - places in lockdown and 80-90%+ vaccinated wouldn’t still have breakouts/tons of cases.

so we shouldn’t keep pushing vaccines like we are and mandating people to get them. We should be mandating these vaccine companies make a better vaccine. Not bailing them out for the more they’re ineffective.

Your crazy if you think if 100% of people were vaccinated this would be better. Look at Johnson and Johnson. FDA passed just months ago - now has serious medical conditions.

look at the VAERS website.

More children have died In car accidents than Covid too. Yet they’re PUSHING for mandatory vaccines in 5 year olds.

zero long term proven anything with these vaccines - so that’s my point. People defending the vaccine like it solved this are wrong.

By end of January you’ll see as many hospitalizations from vaccinated as unvaccinated people. Then I’m sure your narrative/goal post will go to “that’s why you need another booster - your fourth in a year” opposed to actual real treatments talk or people not being fat, out of shape, and having other medial issues caused by not taking care of themselves (these types of people along with very old people/people with other unfortunate medical conditions) are the ones dying 99% of the time. Again, it’s why no young people are dying/literally zero pro North American athletes who take care of themselves/are healthy otherwise

but if you say being fat is bad you get shamed. When heart attacks/etc fill up hospitals way more/kill more people. Same thing about smoking or alcohol. If they cared about public health those would be “illegal” too as they are a risk to yourself and others.... but people like McDonald’s, smoking, and alcohol (including me with some of that), so they don’t bring that up.


We should not be rewarding these vaccine companies when what they originally said/showed studies for are completely wrong and way worse than they promised. That’s my issue.

anyone know what the definition of vaccination is??? Because by the definition - these vaccines are not vaccinations. The literal definition is: “To inoculate with a vaccine in order to produce immunity to an infectious disease, such as diphtheria or typhus.”

immunity isn’t what it is. Wasn’t what was told. Wasn’t what they sold millions of people on. The goal posts have been moved - that’s fine... but it’s not a vaccine if that’s the case.

Bud — look at the death rates and figures before the vaccines and after.

the numbers aren’t even close. Why do you suppose that is? I hope you don’t claim they are manufactured…..

Vaccines aren’t preventing people from getting COVID, per say…..but they ARE preventing people from dying from it.

Spanish Flu in 1920 killed 50m worldwide, when the world had 2b people.

now the world has 7.7b people. Extrapolate the numbers are we’d been looking at 192m people dead. Where are we? Like 6m at most?

what’s the difference? No vaccines back then.

 

[twabby]

Very much so. Yes. We don’t want our kids to put it into their system yet. Long term side effects are simply NOT known, and their lives have a lot longer to go than ours do.

100% I believe parents felt the need to do it for their children (get Vaxxed) as much as for themselves. I sure did. There is a huge school of thought “test it on me, never my kids”

I don’t mean to be crass, but I’d wager you don’t have kids yet? If so, I am sorry for asking.

but having kids and all that goes with it is SO different than not, and having to try and understand. I thought I “got it” before having kids — I had zero clue.

think about the thing you love and cherish most in life. Whatever it is. And your kids are MORE. Especially at a young age. So innocent and so needing of your protection. That’s the root question. What is protection? Very complicated question.

I will close with this— it’s long been stated that the worst thing any one (human or otherwise) has to life thru is having to bury a child. There is good reason for that old adage.

Polling suggests that greater than 30% of parents of 5-11 year old children have or will get their children vaccinated immediately. In addition to another ~30% who are in a wait-and-see mode. Right now only around 14% of 5-11 year olds are fully vaccinated, far less than 30% and in a different stratosphere than 60%.

Polling also suggests that the poorest people will have trouble getting off of work to get their children vaccinated, or have reliable transportation to get their children vaccinated, or have what they perceive to be reliable places to get vaccinated.

KFF COVID-19 Vaccine Monitor: Winter 2021 Update On Parents’ Views Of Vaccines For Kids

I think you are correct to think about the long-term effects of the vaccine, both in adults and children. But I also think it’s worth thinking about the long-term effects of contracting COVID, even if you aren’t killed by it. We all know about the loss of taste and smell, but there is increasing evidence that even clinically mild COVID cases cause memory loss months later.

Many Covid patients have memory problems months later, new study finds

There very well could be other long-term effects we don’t really know about. The fact is long-term effects about COVID are still poorly understood.

It’s why I think it’s in our best interest to proceed as cautiously as possible and re-enter a lockdown with generous benefits provided to all in the midst of the biggest surge of cases of the pandemic. I don’t see The Economy being a valid reason to expose our population to potentially deleterious long-term effects of COVID-19.

The only reason we have to Get Back to Normal is because our wealthy masters demand it of us. Enhanced unemployment benefits being cut off, eviction moratoria being eliminated, and the Sword of Damocles that is student debt of course are going to incentivize people to want to get back to work and exit lockdowns.

But pay people enough money to stay home, and I’m sure attitudes about lockdowns will vastly change.

 

[PlushMinus]

twabby - you can say what you like but if you don't have kids you simply CANNOT comprehend how difficult a decision it is for a parent to make (to vax or not to vax). Ridley Simon is 100 percent correct in his comments to you about this.

If you do have kids then by all mean go for it. The stage is yours

One of mine is vaxxed - she's 19 and it was her decision. She probably wouldn't have bothered except she would have lost her job and many other doors would have been closed to her.
My son isn't vaxxed and his mother and I are still waiting to decide if he will be. And he's 14 years old. It is "probably" safe and he will "probably" be fine - but as a parent, what if he isn't? I will have to carry that burden.
What if he gets covid? Well you know, I wouldn't be surprised if he's already had covid - he's had sore throat, cough, runny nose a couple of times in the last 20 months. Could have been covid or could have been the "normal" cold / flu. It really was so minor and was over in a couple of days so it just wasn't worth getting tested.
So yeah, that's how I feel about it with a 14 year old. If I had kids under 10 - or younger - there's NO WAY in hell I would get them vaccinated, unless there is a new variant that starts killing young children in large numbers. The fear of the unknown vs the statistics around covid and young children being almost completely unaffected makes it an easy decision. Way easier than finding out down the track that the drug companies say "oh f*** sorry, we didn't realise it would make your kids sterile, or grow an extra head, or die of an enlarged heart". Sure, probably not going to happen. But if it does, and it's my kid, then I have to live with that. And that is not cool.

 

[g00n]

I hope you didn't send your kids to school with covid-like symptoms and no test. kids can manifest less severe symptoms and still transmit the disease to adults like teachers and administrators janitors cafeteria workers etcetera. How would you feel then?

 

[twabby]

twabby - you can say what you like but if you don't have kids you simply CANNOT comprehend how difficult a decision it is for a parent to make (to vax or not to vax). Ridley Simon is 100 percent correct in his comments to you about this.

If you do have kids then by all mean go for it. The stage is yours

One of mine is vaxxed - she's 19 and it was her decision. She probably wouldn't have bothered except she would have lost her job and many other doors would have been closed to her.
My son isn't vaxxed and his mother and I are still waiting to decide if he will be. And he's 14 years old. It is "probably" safe and he will "probably" be fine - but as a parent, what if he isn't? I will have to carry that burden.
What if he gets covid? Well you know, I wouldn't be surprised if he's already had covid - he's had sore throat, cough, runny nose a couple of times in the last 20 months. Could have been covid or could have been the "normal" cold / flu. It really was so minor and was over in a couple of days so it just wasn't worth getting tested.
So yeah, that's how I feel about it with a 14 year old. If I had kids under 10 - or younger - there's NO WAY in hell I would get them vaccinated, unless there is a new variant that starts killing young children in large numbers. The fear of the unknown vs the statistics around covid and young children being almost completely unaffected makes it an easy decision. Way easier than finding out down the track that the drug companies say "oh f*** sorry, we didn't realise it would make your kids sterile, or grow an extra head, or die of an enlarged heart". Sure, probably not going to happen. But if it does, and it's my kid, then I have to live with that. And that is not cool.

You misunderstood my prior post, or perhaps I was unclear.

I am not criticizing Ridley Simon for choosing not to get his children vaccinated. Or you for your decision. These are deeply personal decisions and I respect everyone’s choices in these matters.

My point in bringing it up is that I think the same consideration given to the potential long-term effects of the vaccine ought to be given to the long-term effects of COVID-19 when deciding whether or not to keep everything open. Just as you and Ridley Simon have decided that the potential long-term side effects of giving your children the vaccine are not worth any potential benefits at this time, I don’t think it’s worth subjecting children across the globe to the potential long-term side effects of COVID-19 just so I can enjoy an Aloha Pineapple from Jamba Juice.

 

[PlushMinus]

I hope you didn't send your kids to school with covid-like symptoms and no test. kids can manifest less severe symptoms and still transmit the disease to adults like teachers and administrators janitors cafeteria workers etcetera. How would you feel then?

No - the first time he was unwell was during a lockdown and he was being home schooled, and the other time was during a term break / holidays. I work from home so we just bunker down anyway, and wear masks when out and about.

 

[g00n]

You misunderstood my prior post, or perhaps I was unclear.

I am not criticizing Ridley Simon for choosing not to get his children vaccinated. Or you for your decision. These are deeply personal decisions and I respect everyone’s choices in these matters.

My point in bringing it up is that I think the same consideration given to the potential long-term effects of the vaccine ought to be given to the long-term effects of COVID-19 when deciding whether or not to keep everything open. Just as you and Ridley Simon have decided that the potential long-term side effects of giving your children the vaccine are not worth any potential benefits at this time, I don’t think it’s worth subjecting children across the globe to the potential long-term side effects of COVID-19 just so I can enjoy an Aloha Pineapple from Jamba Juice.

Ok so let's say we lock down entirely. Then what? Things break down so repairmen need to keep working. That includes tech and tech security. Medical personnel still need to work. So do some grocery store employees and delivery drivers and all the associated processors and handlers at distribution centers. You're still going to have fire and law enforcement working along with other critical infrastructure/utilities/etc, and THEY need supporting personnel as well. It goes on and on.

Those people also have kids.

So what you're doing is drawing a line just beyond your own personal comfort zone while hiding behind the safety of kids.

We can't lock down forever against this. People need to vax up.

 

[PlushMinus]

You misunderstood my prior post, or perhaps I was unclear.

I am not criticizing Ridley Simon for choosing not to get his children vaccinated. Or you for your decision. These are deeply personal decisions and I respect everyone’s choices in these matters.

My point in bringing it up is that I think the same consideration given to the potential long-term effects of the vaccine ought to be given to the long-term effects of COVID-19 when deciding whether or not to keep everything open. Just as you and Ridley Simon have decided that the potential long-term side effects of giving your children the vaccine are not worth any potential benefits at this time, I don’t think it’s worth subjecting children across the globe to the potential long-term side effects of COVID-19 just so I can enjoy an Aloha Pineapple from Jamba Juice.

Well that is a fair point. But I think you're going to find that alot of number crunching has been going on behind the scenes and most countries' economies can no longer afford to keep going into lockdown. This could be why we are starting to hear more and more of the talking heads saying "It's time we learned to live with this", "if you're vaccinated you shouldn't be so worried about getting covid", and I have even started hearing "If you're going to get covid then Omicron is the one you 'want' to catch because it seems to be milder". The messaging is changing and I don't think that's a coincidence.

It also comes down to a pretty basic reality of human beings: after a while they just become numb to being told what they can and can't do or what they should and shouldn't be afraid of, and they decide to take their chances. I know a lot of people who previously took this all very seriously, followed the rules, complied, etc, and they're now completely fed up and saying they've had enough. Some are even refusing to get a booster.

 

[g00n]

Polling suggests that greater than 30% of parents of 5-11 year old children have or will get their children vaccinated immediately. In addition to another ~30% who are in a wait-and-see mode. Right now only around 14% of 5-11 year olds are fully vaccinated, far less than 30% and in a different stratosphere than 60%.

Polling also suggests that the poorest people will have trouble getting off of work to get their children vaccinated, or have reliable transportation to get their children vaccinated, or have what they perceive to be reliable places to get vaccinated.

KFF COVID-19 Vaccine Monitor: Winter 2021 Update On Parents’ Views Of Vaccines For Kids

I think you are correct to think about the long-term effects of the vaccine, both in adults and children. But I also think it’s worth thinking about the long-term effects of contracting COVID, even if you aren’t killed by it. We all know about the loss of taste and smell, but there is increasing evidence that even clinically mild COVID cases cause memory loss months later.

Many Covid patients have memory problems months later, new study finds

There very well could be other long-term effects we don’t really know about. The fact is long-term effects about COVID are still poorly understood.

It’s why I think it’s in our best interest to proceed as cautiously as possible and re-enter a lockdown with generous benefits provided to all in the midst of the biggest surge of cases of the pandemic. I don’t see The Economy being a valid reason to expose our population to potentially deleterious long-term effects of COVID-19.

The only reason we have to Get Back to Normal is because our wealthy masters demand it of us. Enhanced unemployment benefits being cut off, eviction moratoria being eliminated, and the Sword of Damocles that is student debt of course are going to incentivize people to want to get back to work and exit lockdowns.

But pay people enough money to stay home, and I’m sure attitudes about lockdowns will vastly change.

Did you even read your link?

Safety and potential side effects continue to be prominent concerns when it comes to parents’ views of COVID-19 vaccines for kids. While about six in ten parents (63%) say they are confident that the COVID-19 vaccines are safe for adults, fewer say they are confident the vaccines are safe for children between the ages of 12 and 17 (52%) and for children ages 5 to 11 (43%). Most parents say getting infected with COVID-19 would be a bigger risk to their child’s health than getting vaccinated. However, majorities of unvaccinated parents and Republican parents believe the vaccine poses a greater risk than the virus itself, even though scientific bodies have concluded the opposite is the case.

This is not an access issue, even if people claim it is during polling to avoid appearing negligent. This is people choosing to not get their kids vaccinated, either out of hesitancy or just distrust in general.

Plus, the FDA authorization for 5-11 has only been in effect for almost 2 months. There's not been a lot of time to get it done and it falls right in the busy holiday season. So of course people are going to say they PLAN on getting the shot but can't do it right now. Excuses will be made. Shit gets pushed into the new year all the time.

You're trying to wedge this into your overall worldview so you can apply your preferred solution.

 

[twabby]

DPlus, the FDA authorization for 5-11 has only been in effect for almost 2 months. There's not been a lot of time to get it done and it falls right in the busy holiday season. So of course people are going to say they PLAN on getting the shot but can't do it right now. Excuses will be made. Shit gets pushed into the new year all the time.

This is exactly my point: people haven't had time to get their children vaccinated, so they should be given that opportunity before we even consider reopening everything.

The plus side of shutting it down and providing generous benefits to all is that the poor people that have been forced to bear the financial brunt of this pandemic will suddenly have more time and resources to get themselves and their (age 5+) children vaccinated if they choose.

 

[g00n]

This is exactly my point: people haven't had time to get their children vaccinated, so they should be given that opportunity before we even consider reopening everything.

The plus side of shutting it down and providing generous benefits to all is that the poor people that have been forced to bear the financial brunt of this pandemic will suddenly have more time and resources to get themselves and their (age 5+) children vaccinated if they choose.

Just staying on message as usual.

The point was people saying they plan to do it is more of a function of the newness of the option, not lack of ability as you claim. And the answers regarding distrust of the vaccine support that analysis. So locking down to give them a chance to vax up is not the answer because they WON'T DO IT.

 

[twabby]

Ok so let's say we lock down entirely. Then what? Things break down so repairmen need to keep working. That includes tech and tech security. Medical personnel still need to work. So do some grocery store employees and delivery drivers and all the associated processors and handlers at distribution centers. You're still going to have fire and law enforcement working along with other critical infrastructure/utilities/etc, and THEY need supporting personnel as well. It goes on and on.

Those people also have kids.

So what you're doing is drawing a line just beyond your own personal comfort zone while hiding behind the safety of kids.

We can't lock down forever against this. People need to vax up.

Yes, there will be essential jobs where people will be needed. These jobs will need to have incentives, including increased hazard pay.

Yes, some children will be exposed no matter what. That doesn't mean that all or virtually all children need to be exposed, as is the case currently, just so that we can enjoy all-you-can-eat short stacks at the local IHOP.

 

[g00n]

Yes, there will be essential jobs where people will be needed. These jobs will need to have incentives, including increased hazard pay.

Yes, some children will be exposed no matter what. That doesn't mean that all or virtually all children need to be exposed, as is the case currently, just so that we can enjoy all-you-can-eat short stacks at the local IHOP.

Ok so again you're drawing the line where YOU personally feel comfortable and see the most benefit. You can hyperbolize the value of human life and whinge about how money is no excuse for risking lives, then justify it with "hazard pay" for those who will serve you. You're being hypocritical about this, or else you just haven't thought it all the way through.

I never said a single thing about IHOP but you keep pretending that's what this is all about so you can knock down those strawmen.

 

[twabby]

Just staying on message as usual.

The point was people saying they plan to do it is more of a function of the newness of the option, not lack of ability as you claim. And the answers regarding distrust of the vaccine support that analysis. So locking down to give them a chance to vax up is not the answer because they WON'T DO IT.

Do you think that no one will get their 0-4 year olds vaccinated? Because no 0-4 year olds are currently vaccinated.

Do you think that only 14% of people will get their 5-11 year olds vaccinated, despite the fact that at least 30% say that they will get it done immediately or have already started the process?

 

[twabby]

Ok so again you're drawing the line where YOU personally feel comfortable and see the most benefit. You can hyperbolize the value of human life and whinge about how money is no excuse for risking lives, then justify it with "hazard pay" for those who will serve you. You're being hypocritical about this, or else you just haven't thought it all the way through.

I never said a single thing about IHOP but you keep pretending that's what this is all about so you can knock down those strawmen.

Of course I am drawing the line where I think the benefit is worth the risk. That's the whole point of this discussion!

I think having groceries available is worth exposing a much smaller number of people to the coronavirus because we know with certainty that if people cannot eat, then they will die. If people do not have heating in the winter or air conditioning in the summer then a lot of people will die, so I think it's worth it to have enough HVAC and other utilities people working.

But if people do not have access to burrito bowls at Chipotle, they will not die, so I do not think the risk of exposing Burristas to coronavirus is worth it.

 

[g00n]

Do you think that no one will get their 0-4 year olds vaccinated? Because no 0-4 year olds are currently vaccinated.

Do you think that only 14% of people will get their 5-11 year olds vaccinated, despite the fact that at least 30% say that they will get it done immediately or have already started the process?

Of course I am drawing the line where I think the benefit is worth the risk. That's the whole point of this discussion!

I think having groceries available is worth exposing a much smaller number of people to the coronavirus because we know with certainty that if people cannot eat, then they will die. If people do not have heating in the winter or air conditioning in the summer then a lot of people will die, so I think it's worth it to have enough HVAC and other utilities people working.

But if people do not have access to burrito bowls at Chipotle, they will not die, so I do not think the risk of exposing Burristas to coronavirus is worth it.

You're asking for my opinions on something that nobody can predict, and ignoring the data you yourself posted on the 2nd question, as well as my other comments on the topic.

You're drawing the line where YOU think the benefit is worth the risk FOR YOU. And you're trying to guilt or terrorize other people into doing it by threatening their children while ignoring anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

Have fun.

 

[Ridley Simon]

Polling suggests that greater than 30% of parents of 5-11 year old children have or will get their children vaccinated immediately. In addition to another ~30% who are in a wait-and-see mode. Right now only around 14% of 5-11 year olds are fully vaccinated, far less than 30% and in a different stratosphere than 60%.

Polling also suggests that the poorest people will have trouble getting off of work to get their children vaccinated, or have reliable transportation to get their children vaccinated, or have what they perceive to be reliable places to get vaccinated.

KFF COVID-19 Vaccine Monitor: Winter 2021 Update On Parents’ Views Of Vaccines For Kids

I think you are correct to think about the long-term effects of the vaccine, both in adults and children. But I also think it’s worth thinking about the long-term effects of contracting COVID, even if you aren’t killed by it. We all know about the loss of taste and smell, but there is increasing evidence that even clinically mild COVID cases cause memory loss months later.

Many Covid patients have memory problems months later, new study finds

There very well could be other long-term effects we don’t really know about. The fact is long-term effects about COVID are still poorly understood.

It’s why I think it’s in our best interest to proceed as cautiously as possible and re-enter a lockdown with generous benefits provided to all in the midst of the biggest surge of cases of the pandemic. I don’t see The Economy being a valid reason to expose our population to potentially deleterious long-term effects of COVID-19.

The only reason we have to Get Back to Normal is because our wealthy masters demand it of us. Enhanced unemployment benefits being cut off, eviction moratoria being eliminated, and the Sword of Damocles that is student debt of course are going to incentivize people to want to get back to work and exit lockdowns.

But pay people enough money to stay home, and I’m sure attitudes about lockdowns will vastly change.

That last sentence. No it won’t. Not for families. I’ve already seen the psychological damage that’s happened in my kids. They are well behind where they should be socially. Especially my 3yr old. He’s been in very few social situations with other kids/people and it’s hurt him quite a bit. Same with my 8yr old. She’s used to socially being a kindergartner— and now has to deal w 3rd grader actions. It’s been really hard.

I don’t know if it’s going to impact their personalities long term. Especially my 3yr old. I hope not.

I have a good friend who’s daughter missed 7th and 8th grade. Her last socialization was 6th grade. She is *really* struggling as one of the new girls in High School. It’s bad.

take that as you will, but without having kids, you really cannot speak as to how a parent will feel. I don’t mean that in a disrespectful manner at all, please don’t take it that way.

oh and as far as polling? Polls had Hillary trouncing Donald. We all saw how that worked out.

 

[twabby]

That last sentence. No it won’t. Not for families. I’ve already seen the psychological damage that’s happened in my kids. They are well behind where they should be socially. Especially my 3yr old. He’s been in very few social situations with other kids/people and it’s hurt him quite a bit. Same with my 8yr old. She’s used to socially being a kindergartner— and now has to deal w 3rd grader actions. It’s been really hard.

I don’t know if it’s going to impact their personalities long term. Especially my 3yr old. I hope not.

I have a good friend who’s daughter missed 7th and 8th grade. Her last socialization was 6th grade. She is *really* struggling as one of the new girls in High School. It’s bad.

take that as you will, but without having kids, you really cannot speak as to how a parent will feel. I don’t mean that in a disrespectful manner at all, please don’t take it that way.

oh and as far as polling? Polls had Hillary trouncing Donald. We all saw how that worked out.

I can buy arguments for schools being essential and that they should be open for the reasons you mention. The long-term effects of COVID-19 compared to the long-term effects of children not being able to learn and socialize is unclear to me, so I'd be down for allowing in-person schooling to continue. With proper precautions of course: social distancing, masking, testing, contact tracing, minimum 10 day quarantines if sick, and mandatory COVID vaccinations for all eligible students.

The polling statistics were not meant to give laser-precise numbers on the number of adults who want their children vaccinated, but rather to indicate that there are still plenty of adults out there that simply have not had the opportunity to get their children vaccinated yet despite their desire to do so. And this is trivially true of adults of children aged 0-4, unless you think not a single parent of someone in this age group wants their children vaccinated.

 

[Ridley Simon]

I can buy arguments for schools being essential and that they should be open for the reasons you mention. The long-term effects of COVID-19 compared to the long-term effects of children not being able to learn and socialize is unclear to me, so I'd be down for allowing in-person schooling to continue. With proper precautions of course: social distancing, masking, testing, contact tracing, minimum 10 day quarantines if sick, and mandatory COVID vaccinations for all eligible students.

The polling statistics were not meant to give laser-precise numbers on the number of adults who want their children vaccinated, but rather to indicate that there are still plenty of adults out there that simply have not had the opportunity to get their children vaccinated yet despite their desire to do so. And this is trivially true of adults of children aged 0-4, unless you think not a single parent of someone in this age group wants their children vaccinated.

I don’t know any that do. But that’s just me. It’s akin to allowing your young child to be a Guinea pig for testing. As that’s really what this is.

only people I know of that are pro little kids are doctors. And they kind of have to (even though all do not)

 

[twabby]

The trends for COVID are looking up!

 

[g00n]

View attachment 494789

The trends for COVID are looking up!

Look at the state level case data.

States with the lowest 2 shot vax rate and low booster rate seem least affected by the early stages of Omicron from a month ago, likely because the summer/fall Delta surge is offering some short-term immunity vs Omicron. But even these states are beginning to track up the last few days. Examples are Alabama and Mississippi.

OTOH there are states with high 2 shot vax and relatively low booster percentages (even the best are only 40-48% of vaccinated people boosted which isn't enough). These states rode out Delta pretty well but have been seeing exponential increases in cases during December due to Omicron because the original vaccines have lost effectiveness (and Omicron is different). So the effective ANTIGEN vax rate for such states is low (like 25%) but the T-cell defense is likely high. These are the states the antivaxxers are looking at and claiming vaccines don't work when they have worked remarkably well so far, but when you have 25% of people boosted you're going to have surges, even if cases are mild. Examples are MD and CT.

A third category is states with lower 2 shot rates due to political/social factioning, but high booster rates among those who did get 2 shots. This is a weird combo of Delta cases slowly rising half the year but no real Omicron surge due to early vaccines failing, so the chart stays fairly linear in its progression. Examples are Wisconsin and Minnesota.

Still seeing reports that Omicron is supposed to be milder though more infectious, so hopefully even these surges and profiles prove to be just end stages for this bullshit.

 

[twabby]

Look at the state level case data.

States with the lowest 2 shot vax rate and low booster rate seem least affected by the early stages of Omicron from a month ago, likely because the summer/fall Delta surge is offering some short-term immunity vs Omicron. But even these states are beginning to track up the last few days. Examples are Alabama and Mississippi.

OTOH there are states with high 2 shot vax and relatively low booster percentages (even the best are only 40-48% of vaccinated people boosted which isn't enough). These states rode out Delta pretty well but have been seeing exponential increases in cases during December due to Omicron because the original vaccines have lost effectiveness (and Omicron is different). So the effective ANTIGEN vax rate for such states is low (like 25%) but the T-cell defense is likely high. These are the states the antivaxxers are looking at and claiming vaccines don't work when they have worked remarkably well so far, but when you have 25% of people boosted you're going to have surges, even if cases are mild. Examples are MD and CT.

A third category is states with lower 2 shot rates due to political/social factioning, but high booster rates among those who did get 2 shots. This is a weird combo of Delta cases slowly rising half the year but no real Omicron surge due to early vaccines failing, so the chart stays fairly linear in its progression. Examples are Wisconsin and Minnesota.

Still seeing reports that Omicron is supposed to be milder though more infectious, so hopefully even these surges and profiles prove to be just end stages for this bullshit.

All I’m seeing are hospitals being overrun again. I’d hate to tell my fully vaccinated meemaw that she’s going to have trouble finding a hospital bed if she has a stroke. But at least she’ll die knowing that it was worth it because everyone is able to enjoy their $5 Biggie Bags from Wendy’s in the lobby.

 

[g00n]

All I’m seeing are hospitals being overrun again. I’d hate to tell my fully vaccinated meemaw that she’s going to have trouble finding a hospital bed if she has a stroke. But at least she’ll die knowing that it was worth it because everyone is able to enjoy their $5 Biggie Bags from Wendy’s in the lobby.

If you're concerned about it then figure out a way to get people vaccinated and boosted. That will do the most good.

Maryland passes 2,000 COVID-19 hospitalizations | WTOP News

If you prefer the Monty Python version:

UK's Johnson warns of hospital risk for unvaccinated