OT: Coronavirus Thread (MOD Warning Post #19)

[twabby]

Why are you claiming only the wealthy and large businesses would want and benefit from a shortened quarantine period? It’s the small businesses and the working class that gets f***ed if and when the economy slows down. The wealthy get richer during downturns since they can buy stuff up at a discount and ride the wave back up. Small businesses cannot afford another prolonged lockdown and people who live paycheck to paycheck cannot afford to be out of work for 10 days.

The guidance was changed because we have to learn to live with Covid as part of our new normal and because vaccines by and large prevent people from getting so sick that they require hospitalization.

I didn't say small businesses wouldn't benefit from the relaxed guidance, I said that the CDC made the change in guidance based on the interests of big businesses and the wealthy. Do you think they care what Agnes's Antique Shoppe has to say, or what Walmart has to say?

It's no coincidence that a mere week after Delta (the airline, not the extremely dangerous variant of SARS-CoV-2) asked for a 5 day quarantine period instead of a 10 day period, the CDC updated their guidance to reflect Delta's wishes. Surely Delta was not alone in pressuring the administration to relax the quarantine period.

The updated CDC guidance also contained a curious lack of scientific evidence to support the change, instead justifying the update by saying that we have to get things back to normal. I don't think the Centers for Disease Control should be offering guidance that is purely political and/or economic in nature, especially without the science to back it up.

Small businesses cannot afford another prolonged lockdown because the government will not provide them with the money to shutdown. People who live paycheck to paycheck cannot afford to be out of work for 10 days because the government will not provide them with benefits that will enable them to lockdown. This isn't justification for not locking down. Perhaps instead of providing the Department of Defense (i.e. private military contractors) with close to $10 trillion over the next 10 years, we could instead give everyone $2,000 a month to survive until the pandemic is over. Perhaps instead of having one of the lowest effective tax rates on the wealthy and corporations in the world we could instead ask them to pay their fair share to allow society to survive, as it is this society that has allowed them to amass such riches in the first place.

Put yourself in the shoes of a McDonalds worker who has a 3 year old in daycare. After spending hours face-to-face in front of belligerent customers demanding their Filets-o-Fish quickly, you go to pick up your child from daycare. She's unvaccinated, of course, because vaccines are unavailable for those under 5. She's also spent hours around other coughing, drooling, snotting, unvaccinated children. Children who may have unvaccinated parents. Are we supposed to ask our 3 year old child to learn to live with COVID as part of her new normal because vaccines by and large prevent her from getting so sick that she would need to go to the hospital? If she survives her bout with COVID, are we supposed to ask her to live with the long-term consequences of COVID that are still very poorly understood just so that the S&P 500 can continue to go up? How many children, immunocompromised, and poor people do we need to sacrifice on the altar of The Economy?

Click to read more...

 

[tycoonheart]

I'll give you an example of where the the new CDC guideline is helpful, and its not related to big businesses and the wealthy. Hospitals.

Wife's hospital is slammed with COVID cases again. And some of the nurses have tested positive - some got it at home, some at the hospital. The existing quarantine time caused a big time shortage in staff. Plus hospital has had a bunch of nurses leave 'coz they are fed up up with this shit, and they're having a hard time finding new hires. Lowering the quarantine time helps these folks get back to work earlier, hopefully alleviating the issue with shortage in staff.

Honestly think CDC had hospitals in mind too when they made that decision.

 

[g00n]

Fast food isn't the only job. People can't just stay home indefinitely living off the govt dole. Someone has to work to keep the supply chain and critical systems operational. And from there it spirals outward. Not to mention the billions in fraud from the last few relief packages that are only now being fully investigated.

When you have mitigation methods available then they need to be used instead of shutting everything down. Assist those that really need it but try to keep things going. This is not pre-vax 2020.

And if this twitter link means what I think it means, then we may be nearing the point where c19 is finally just another "flu strain of the year" type situation for boosters and vaccines. There's a very good chance the CDC is basing their new recommendations (which I originally hated) on theories and evidence like this:



If this is true then it could align with what the CDC is doing. Being the most contagious 2 days before showing symptoms and 3 days after sounds very similar to what happens with a regular cold, though maybe shifted a bit.

Of course this is still going to be very dangerous for anyone who has not been vaccinated AND has not already recovered and produced T-cells. Which is why vaccination is still so important. But getting boosted every couple of months may eventually prove to be a luxury against symptoms (and transmission via higher viral load times).

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I didn't say small businesses wouldn't benefit from the relaxed guidance, I said that the CDC made the change in guidance based on the interests of big businesses and the wealthy. Do you think they care what Agnes's Antique Shoppe has to say, or what Walmart has to say?

It's no coincidence that a mere week after Delta (the airline, not the extremely dangerous variant of SARS-CoV-2) asked for a 5 day quarantine period instead of a 10 day period, the CDC updated their guidance to reflect Delta's wishes. Surely Delta was not alone in pressuring the administration to relax the quarantine period.

The updated CDC guidance also contained a curious lack of scientific evidence to support the change, instead justifying the update by saying that we have to get things back to normal. I don't think the Centers for Disease Control should be offering guidance that is purely political and/or economic in nature, especially without the science to back it up.

Small businesses cannot afford another prolonged lockdown because the government will not provide them with the money to shutdown. People who live paycheck to paycheck cannot afford to be out of work for 10 days because the government will not provide them with benefits that will enable them to lockdown. This isn't justification for not locking down. Perhaps instead of providing the Department of Defense (i.e. private military contractors) with close to $10 trillion over the next 10 years, we could instead give everyone $2,000 a month to survive until the pandemic is over. Perhaps instead of having one of the lowest effective tax rates on the wealthy and corporations in the world we could instead ask them to pay their fair share to allow society to survive, as it is this society that has allowed them to amass such riches in the first place.

Put yourself in the shoes of a McDonalds worker who has a 3 year old in daycare. After spending hours face-to-face in front of belligerent customers demanding their Filets-o-Fish quickly, you go to pick up your child from daycare. She's unvaccinated, of course, because vaccines are unavailable for those under 5. She's also spent hours around other coughing, drooling, snotting, unvaccinated children. Children who may have unvaccinated parents. Are we supposed to ask our 3 year old child to learn to live with COVID as part of her new normal because vaccines by and large prevent her from getting so sick that she would need to go to the hospital? If she survives her bout with COVID, are we supposed to ask her to live with the long-term consequences of COVID that are still very poorly understood just so that the S&P 500 can continue to go up? How many children, immunocompromised, and poor people do we need to sacrifice on the altar of The Economy?

have you looked at the death rates for children under 4? Almost non-existent. Incredibly low by comparison.

 

[twabby]

I'll give you an example of where the the new CDC guideline is helpful, and its not related to big businesses and the wealthy. Hospitals.

Wife's hospital is slammed with COVID cases again. And some of the nurses have tested positive - some got it at home, some at the hospital. The existing quarantine time caused a big time shortage in staff. Plus hospital has had a bunch of nurses leave 'coz they are fed up up with this shit, and they're having a hard time finding new hires. Lowering the quarantine time helps these folks get back to work earlier, hopefully alleviating the issue with shortage in staff.

Honestly think CDC had hospitals in mind too when they made that decision.

Why would we want nurses who are still COVID positive infecting other nurses or patients they are taking care of? Will a shorter quarantine time make more staff available, or will it just cause more infections when nurses return sick, making staff even scarcer than before?

Indeed, nurses and their unions across the country are upset with the new guidance (which doesn't even require a negative COVID test!)

Nurses in Atlanta speak out against new CDC quarantine guidelines

Big Nurses Group Opposes CDC’s Shorter Covid Isolation Guidelines

N.Y. Nurses Association Blasts New CDC Isolation Guidance As 'Inconsistent With Proven Science'

 

[tycoonheart]

Why would we want nurses who are still COVID positive infecting other nurses or patients they are taking care of? Will a shorter quarantine time make more staff available, or will it just cause more infections when nurses return sick, making staff even scarcer than before?

Because hospitals are going to collapse without there being enough healthcare workers actually working. CDC is saying if you're vaccinated, asymptomatic, and around others with a proper mask, the chance of spreading the virus is low.

 

[twabby]

Because hospitals are going to collapse without there being enough healthcare workers actually working. CDC is saying if you're vaccinated, asymptomatic, and around others with a proper mask, the chance of spreading the virus is low.

Hospitals are going to collapse because they are overwhelmed with patients. They would not be overwhelmed with patients if we were in a lockdown with generous benefits provided to all.

The point I'm trying to make is that the CDC's guidance cannot be trusted at this point because their guidance is clearly political in nature, and not scientific or medical. For instance, here is a graphic from earlier this year, during the Delta wave:

It seems clear now that either they based their decision to recommend lifting mask mandates on science that proved to be faulty, or more likely just made a political decision in order to try to get things back to normal because not doing so would undoubtedly hurt The Economy. I'm leaning towards the latter, and I believe the same thing is happening now with their decision to reduce the quarantine period, and not even requiring a negative test to exit quarantine.

 

[twabby]

have you looked at the death rates for children under 4? Almost non-existent. Incredibly low by comparison.

I mean I guess they are still lowish for now, but pediatric hospitalizations are on the rise:

US children hospitalized with COVID in near-record numbers | AP News

New Omicron variant fills up children's hospitals - CNN

Pediatric COVID-19 case rates, hospitalizations 'on fire' amid nation's latest surge

And this number is only going to rise as the surge continues to grow. Perhaps they won't die in larger percentages than they did for Delta or the prior strains, but we don't know that yet. They're being hospitalized in greater numbers, isn't it possible they could die in higher numbers as well? Should we accept children dying so that Dow Jones can gain a few thousand points this year? And even if death rates don't go up, without know the long-term consequences of getting COVID isn't it wrong to subject our children to unnecessary risk just so that people can get their Prime Rib Dippers at Applebees?

Only 14% of 5 to 11 year olds are fully vaccinated right now. Only around 50% of 12-17 year olds are fully vaccinated. 0% of 4 and unders are fully vaccinated.

Perhaps we could at least wait until everyone can be vaccinated, and evaluate from there? Despite disappointing news recently about how the vaccine trials failed for the youngest cohort, it seems likely that a vaccine for the 0-4 year olds will be available relatively soon. Why not lockdown until then, and then reevaluate where we are?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

How can we wait until people are vaccinated to evaluate, when a large portion refuse it for themselves and their children?

The world isn’t standing still any more. Learning to live with this is the new norm.

 

[twabby]

How can we wait until people are vaccinated to evaluate, when a large portion refuse it for themselves and their children?

The world isn’t standing still any more. Learning to live with this is the new norm.

As mentioned, 0-4 year olds cannot get the vaccine yet, and most 5-11 year olds have not had enough time to get fully vaccinated even if their parents decide to get them vaccinated. Again, please tell these children and the parents of these children that the world isn't standing still and they just need to deal with potential long-term consequences of COVID-19 so that a few rich people can add some 0s to the end of their net worth.

 

[g00n]

I mean I guess they are still lowish for now, but pediatric hospitalizations are on the rise:

US children hospitalized with COVID in near-record numbers | AP News

New Omicron variant fills up children's hospitals - CNN

Pediatric COVID-19 case rates, hospitalizations 'on fire' amid nation's latest surge

And this number is only going to rise as the surge continues to grow. Perhaps they won't die in larger percentages than they did for Delta or the prior strains, but we don't know that yet. They're being hospitalized in greater numbers, isn't it possible they could die in higher numbers as well? Should we accept children dying so that Dow Jones can gain a few thousand points this year? And even if death rates don't go up, without know the long-term consequences of getting COVID isn't it wrong to subject our children to unnecessary risk just so that people can get their Prime Rib Dippers at Applebees?

Only 14% of 5 to 11 year olds are fully vaccinated right now. Only around 50% of 12-17 year olds are fully vaccinated. 0% of 4 and unders are fully vaccinated.

Perhaps we could at least wait until everyone can be vaccinated, and evaluate from there? Despite disappointing news recently about how the vaccine trials failed for the youngest cohort, it seems likely that a vaccine for the 0-4 year olds will be available relatively soon. Why not lockdown until then, and then reevaluate where we are?

Do you have a kid in the target age groups? I do. It's not an easy thing to deal with. But I'm making my decisions based on as much factual information and as much sane processing of data as possible. You agree with that approach in general, yes? So you have to be careful about the jump scare articles the media has become addicted to. They will seize on the most fearful aspects of any story and amplify them, while burying important caveats in the footnotes. Like these:

AP: On a more hopeful note, children continue to represent a small percentage of those being hospitalized with COVID-19: An average of over 9,400 people of all ages were admitted per day during the same week in December. And many doctors say the youngsters coming in now seem less sick than those seen during the delta surge over the summer.

ABC: Although severe illness due to COVID-19 remains "uncommon" among children, according to the AAP and CHA, experts stress that young people are not immune from the virus, or from severe illness and death. *(note: keep in mind ABC has also recently posted shady data that suggested almost no difference in death rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated people)

CNN: Children seem to be only mildly ill, for the most part, in New Jersey, said Dr. Jennifer Owensby of the pediatric critical care division at Rutgers Robert Wood Johnson Medical School.
"We are definitely seeing an increase in Covid-positive children, but they are not necessarily coming in with Covid symptoms," Owensby said. The kids are coming in for some other treatment, she said, and are testing positive when they are screened.

Then there's NYT:

Omicron Is Not More Severe for Children, Despite Rising Hospitalizations

But even as experts expressed concern about a marked jump in hospitalizations — an increase more than double that among adults — doctors and researchers said they were not seeing evidence that Omicron was more threatening to children.
In fact, preliminary data suggests that compared with the Delta variant, Omicron appears to be causing milder illness in children, similar to early findings for adults.
“I think the important story to tell here is that severity is way down and the risk for significant severe disease seems to be lower,” said Dr. David Rubin, a researcher at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia.


So what does this mean? In reality it seems to be a combination of factors that suggest weakened resolve among adults, holiday gatherings, waning vaccine effectiveness that isn't being boosted, and increased T-cell response leading to increases in case counts for all groups INCLUDING children who are still showing mainly mild symptoms and are often going to the hospital for something else and testing positive for COVID later.

I would prefer to not have to deal with all the complexities here but life is not fair. Right now we have to make choices about what this society requires to keep functioning, and shutting everything down with "generous benefits" for everyone so you can sit at home and play video games for a few more months isn't on my to-do list. Not when we could be getting vaccinated and rolling out previously effective protocols to slow the spread.

 

[Capsman]

Some conservative states are extending unemployment benefits for the unvaccinated/refusers who were fired. Which in turn hurts the businesses. Disgusting.

As for the new recommendations, undoubtedly they were made with economic considerations. Yes there will be cases beyond 5 days of contagiousness, which they hope to mitigate with mask wearing. The problem is it depends on an honor system and sense of sacrifice for the greater good, not our strengths as a nation. With a decreased viral load beyond 5 days and mask wearing, the transmission risk should me minimal (immunosuppressed people being an exception as they are likely to remain very contagious).

 

[twabby]

Do you have a kid in the target age groups? I do. It's not an easy thing to deal with. But I'm making my decisions based on as much factual information and as much sane processing of data as possible. You agree with that approach in general, yes? So you have to be careful about the jump scare articles the media has become addicted to. They will seize on the most fearful aspects of any story and amplify them, while burying important caveats in the footnotes. Like these:

AP: On a more hopeful note, children continue to represent a small percentage of those being hospitalized with COVID-19: An average of over 9,400 people of all ages were admitted per day during the same week in December. And many doctors say the youngsters coming in now seem less sick than those seen during the delta surge over the summer.

ABC: Although severe illness due to COVID-19 remains "uncommon" among children, according to the AAP and CHA, experts stress that young people are not immune from the virus, or from severe illness and death. *(note: keep in mind ABC has also recently posted shady data that suggested almost no difference in death rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated people)

CNN: Children seem to be only mildly ill, for the most part, in New Jersey, said Dr. Jennifer Owensby of the pediatric critical care division at Rutgers Robert Wood Johnson Medical School.
"We are definitely seeing an increase in Covid-positive children, but they are not necessarily coming in with Covid symptoms," Owensby said. The kids are coming in for some other treatment, she said, and are testing positive when they are screened.

Then there's NYT:

Omicron Is Not More Severe for Children, Despite Rising Hospitalizations

But even as experts expressed concern about a marked jump in hospitalizations — an increase more than double that among adults — doctors and researchers said they were not seeing evidence that Omicron was more threatening to children.
In fact, preliminary data suggests that compared with the Delta variant, Omicron appears to be causing milder illness in children, similar to early findings for adults.
“I think the important story to tell here is that severity is way down and the risk for significant severe disease seems to be lower,” said Dr. David Rubin, a researcher at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia.


So what does this mean? In reality it seems to be a combination of factors that suggest weakened resolve among adults, holiday gatherings, waning vaccine effectiveness that isn't being boosted, and increased T-cell response leading to increases in case counts for all groups INCLUDING children who are still showing mainly mild symptoms and are often going to the hospital for something else and testing positive for COVID later.

I would prefer to not have to deal with all the complexities here but life is not fair. Right now we have to make choices about what this society requires to keep functioning, and shutting everything down with "generous benefits" for everyone so you can sit at home and play video games for a few more months isn't on my to-do list. Not when we could be getting vaccinated and rolling out previously effective protocols to slow the spread.

For one: "they seem less sick" is hardly data. The case numbers are still rising, and hospitalizations are rising. Hospitalizations lag behind case numbers, and deaths lag behind hospitalizations. Even if most infected people are fine which has been true for the entire pandemic, and even if Omicron truly is milder, the fact that this early in the Omicron surge we already see skyrocketing hospitalizations suggests to me that a lot of people are going to die! Including vaccinated people!

I agree with need to do everything we can to get everyone vaccinated. And I agree we need to roll out previously effective protocols, such as locking down. We should also introduce new protocols and policies, such as free medical care so as to restore confidence in the medical system (which will improve vaccine rates), and eliminating debts of all types to deter people from working if they don't have to.

 

[hb12xchamps]

My mother has owned multiple child care facilities for many years. I’m currently in the process of taking the business over from her and learning the ins and outs. Throughout the pandemic we have seen a grand total of 3 kids get COVID and only one of them had actual symptoms, the other two were asymptomatic. That’s between two locations and roughly 150 or more enrolled kids. Kids 2 and older had to wear masks for the majority of that time frame. Our staff do a ton of cleaning to ensure the most sanitary conditions possible. Unless you’re taking your kid to an absolute shit hole, they shouldn’t be getting as sick at a child care facility as one would think. The worst outbreaks we had were other viruses and those outbreaks happened after masks were taken off for the summer months this year.

The business side has been a shit show. We have a serious staffing shortage that isn’t going away. We’ve upped our pay rate to be extremely competitive and it hasn’t helped one bit. I’d wager that 1/10 of the interviews we set up don’t show up. The rest of them are likely using us to show the unemployment office “proof” that they are actively looking for a job.

The pandemic staffing shortage is very, very real. It’s sad to see so many small businesses suffering or even closing their doors on a daily basis. People truly are grinding and working their asses off. If you have children in child care, please be kind to their care givers. They likely are very exhausted and very burnt out.

 

[DCRedhawk21]

I thought that the new CDC guidance only applies to fully vaccinated people who are asymptomatic and they are still required to wear masks for days 6-10 days. I would prefer a negative test requirement, but I also acknowledge the testing issues we have and it doesn’t seem that crazy.

 

[Neil Racki]

Me and my family got covid early to mid December. I got it first and was able to get tested and see a Patient First physician. But it was packed and the wait time was approx 3 hours.

The next day, my daughter and others in my immediate family couldnt get tested or see a doctor anywhere. Everywhere was over whelmed. We all had symptoms.

If you had some other health need ... no one had an opening. Youd have to go to the ER which I imagine is over whelmed as well.

My family being vaxxed meant we didnt need to go to the ER and could ride out our symptoms at home.

I saw firsthand how a covid surge in Columbia MD absolutely shut the urgent care and testing sites down.

 

[maacoshark]

Just curious how many of us here are fully vaccinated.
I'm not really a believer in the vaccine. Just like with flu shots. I have never had a flu shot before and the last time I had a flu bug was in 2012.
However I am not an antivaxxer either and I am fully vaccinated and got my booster shot 2 days ago.
I admit the real reason I got vaccinated is because of all of the restrictions for the unvaccinated.
Another thing I'll be honest about. The only time I have felt any bit of illness in 9 years has been after my covid shot. I had no effects after the first shot but the 2nd and 3rd shots kicked the crap out of me.

 

[g00n]

For one: "they seem less sick" is hardly data. The case numbers are still rising, and hospitalizations are rising. Hospitalizations lag behind case numbers, and deaths lag behind hospitalizations. Even if most infected people are fine which has been true for the entire pandemic, and even if Omicron truly is milder, the fact that this early in the Omicron surge we already see skyrocketing hospitalizations suggests to me that a lot of people are going to die! Including vaccinated people!

I agree with need to do everything we can to get everyone vaccinated. And I agree we need to roll out previously effective protocols, such as locking down. We should also introduce new protocols and policies, such as free medical care so as to restore confidence in the medical system (which will improve vaccine rates), and eliminating debts of all types to deter people from working if they don't have to.

It seems like you're cherrpicking data vs anecdote from healthcare professionals depending on whether it suits your narrative.

How are the cases and deaths rising compared to last year? What ratios are being seen? Deaths seem to be rising more slowly even with comparable case numbers.

Last year deaths in MD doubled within a week or two of the start of the winter surge, which peaked at about 4-5x the previous case rate. By 3 weeks deaths were 3x what they'd been and by a month they were close to peak.

This time we're about 4 weeks into the surge and cases are already 14x what they were before, even during delta, yet the deaths have only crept up a little bit. So we'll see.

Pediatric deaths don't seem to have risen sharply, either. I'm concerned about my kid but that carries more than basically locking ourselves in our house like we did for over a year, fearing that the next critical appliance to break might also do us in (like our AC motor blowing up during a heat wave, or the water not working...both happened).

This is all very stressful and concerning for parents as it is. I don't like having to deal with this every single day. Our daycare is very good and I've still debated holding my kid out for a while. But regardless of what we do, you and others who selfishly keep pushing your already-established agenda (M4A, UBI, debt forgiveness, lockdowns, etc) with PATRIOT ACT style opportunism by trying to scare people about the health of their kids is pretty low.

Edit: MD has also had 56,000 cases among residents 0-9 years old and 4 have died. Run that through the fancy stat machine.

 

[hockeykicker]

Posts about causes, symptoms, diagnosis, treatment, origins and prevention etc are no longer allowed unless there is a local component. Otherwise they belong in main board thread

For more general discussion, go to the main thread below:
COVID 19 - The Coronavirus Outbreak

Please try your best to stay on topic, failure may result in your post being deleted, receiving an infraction, a thread ban, or all of the above. If posters in general can't adhere to these rules, we simply will not have a covid19 thread in the Capitals forum.

 

[g00n]

So what is the topic of this thread, then? Just "covid's local impact on hockey" I assume?

edit: Twabby started this to remove his complaints about the perceived political and business influences on what are also health issues, and that then filters back into "causes, symptoms, diagnosis, treatment" etc. So I'm not sure what this thread is for.

 

[tycoonheart]

Posts about causes, symptoms, diagnosis, treatment, origins and prevention etc are no longer allowed unless there is a local component. Otherwise they belong in main board thread

For more general discussion, go to the main thread below:
COVID 19 - The Coronavirus Outbreak

Please try your best to stay on topic, failure may result in your post being deleted, receiving an infraction, a thread ban, or all of the above. If posters in general can't adhere to these rules, we simply will not have a covid19 thread in the Capitals forum.

These limitations are a little extreme. Can't have conversation on COVID without some of the items on that not allowed list. You guys should rethink this a bit.

 

[twabby]

It seems like you're cherrpicking data vs anecdote from healthcare professionals depending on whether it suits your narrative.

How are the cases and deaths rising compared to last year? What ratios are being seen? Deaths seem to be rising more slowly even with comparable case numbers.

Last year deaths in MD doubled within a week or two of the start of the winter surge, which peaked at about 4-5x the previous case rate. By 3 weeks deaths were 3x what they'd been and by a month they were close to peak.

This time we're about 4 weeks into the surge and cases are already 14x what they were before, even during delta, yet the deaths have only crept up a little bit. So we'll see.

Pediatric deaths don't seem to have risen sharply, either. I'm concerned about my kid but that carries more than basically locking ourselves in our house like we did for over a year, fearing that the next critical appliance to break might also do us in (like our AC motor blowing up during a heat wave, or the water not working...both happened).

This is all very stressful and concerning for parents as it is. I don't like having to deal with this every single day. Our daycare is very good and I've still debated holding my kid out for a while. But regardless of what we do, you and others who selfishly keep pushing your already-established agenda (M4A, UBI, debt forgiveness, lockdowns, etc) with PATRIOT ACT style opportunism by trying to scare people about the health of their kids is pretty low.

Edit: MD has also had 56,000 cases among residents 0-9 years old and 4 have died. Run that through the fancy stat machine.

Everything is rising. We're not near the peak yet. Again, even if omicron is milder (which has not really been proven yet) the sheer explosion in the number of cases is going to mean a ton of dead people, and a ton of overrun hospitals, causing more deaths from non-COVID related issues.

I think I'm just a bit different than others. I don't think we should condemn unvaccinated people to death as we are currently doing, even if being unvaccinated is of their own choosing. Yes, some people aren't getting vaccinated because they hate Joe Biden or whatever. But others have a well-founded distrust of our medical system which is causing vaccine hesitancy, for example. And many children aren't getting vaccinated because their parents don't want them to. It's kind of a cruel thought in my mind to say anyone in any way deserves to die just so that we can make sure our curly fries from Arby's are getting served and that we can wash those down with an Oreo Blizzard from Dairy Queen.

At some point you just do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. I don't think it's worth having people go back to completely non-essential jobs just so we can feel "normal" at the expense of millions of lives, at the expense of thousands of children's lives, and at the risk of further encouraging mutations of the coronavirus. I don't think it's worth reducing the quarantine guidelines just because airlines are having difficulty making all of their flights with a 10-day quarantine period. I don't think it's worth opening up arenas to full capacity just so that Ted Leonsis's net worth won't drop into a mere 9-digit figure. And yes, you got me, I don't think that people during a once-in-a-hundred year pandemic should be paying out of pocket for medical care. Call that opportunism if you like, I just think it's the right thing to do.

 

[g00n]

I'm not sure I can reply to that without it being deleted. Let's just say I disagree with some core assumptions.

 

[Ridley Simon]

As mentioned, 0-4 year olds cannot get the vaccine yet, and most 5-11 year olds have not had enough time to get fully vaccinated even if their parents decide to get them vaccinated. Again, please tell these children and the parents of these children that the world isn't standing still and they just need to deal with potential long-term consequences of COVID-19 so that a few rich people can add some 0s to the end of their net worth.

I’m a parent of 3 kids. 8/5/3. My 2 oldest are not Vaxxed, and we are in zero hurry to do so. I’ve had this debate on here before. No need to rehash it.

I’m also a T-cell lymphoma survivor, so I am fully Vaxxed and awaiting my Booster (next Tuesday). Im aware that I am fully at risk and there is major concern.

all that said, even I think the world needs to open up sooner than later. I don’t think lockdown helps anyone, in a myriad of ways.

I also think the CDC is trying to post guidelines that people will actually follow. I’ve read that a large portion of the populace wasn’t following the 10 day rule, and that they think the 5 day rule will have a far better chance of actually getting followed.

so don’t see this as much as being political, as it is practical. Just my 2 cents

 

[VaCaps Fan]

I am trapped in quarantine with this!