Player Discussion Connor McDavid Part VI: Hart, Ross and Lindsay Winner

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Thornton is not a generational player. Unless McDavid learns to score goals he is going to fall short of that league domination. People will argue that he is not generational. Just the way it is. If he doesn't want that then learn to score goals.

People expect him to be the omega, to be this almighty force that can do no wrong. McDavid would have a lot more points this year if he had competent (and consistent) linemates. He drives the play, he backs defenders off, he backchecks and strips other players of the puck.

But no he's not generational because he can't score goals as well as other players. Good grief. His ELC isn't even up and now he's Ales Hemsky.

 

[CornKicker]

People expect him to be the omega, to be this almighty force that can do no wrong. McDavid would have a lot more points this year if he had competent (and consistent) linemates. He drives the play, he backs defenders off, he backchecks and strips other players of the puck.

But no he's not generational because he can't score goals as well as other players. Good grief. His ELC isn't even up and now he's Ales Hemsky.

pump the breaks a little dude, McDavid hasn't even shown 1/10th of the ability to go offside as hemsky

 

[ThePhoenixx]

People expect him to be the omega, to be this almighty force that can do no wrong. McDavid would have a lot more points this year if he had competent (and consistent) linemates. He drives the play, he backs defenders off, he backchecks and strips other players of the puck.

But no he's not generational because he can't score goals as well as other players. Good grief. His ELC isn't even up and now he's Ales Hemsky.

Did I say that? Perhaps you should re-read my post.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Who was the last generational player not to finish top 5 or 10 in scoring in their 3rd NHL season? I agree that he has to look to shoot more and improve his shot more. With his talent there's no reason why he shuldn't be scoring 40 goals a season.

 

[Spawn]

Who was the last generational player not to finish top 5 or 10 in scoring in their 3rd NHL season? I agree that he has to look to shoot more and improve his shot more. With his talent there's no reason why he shuldn't be scoring 40 goals a season.

Who was the last generational player to have the team around him dismantled by a moron in their 3rd season?

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Who was the last generational player to have the team around him dismantled by a moron in their 3rd season?

Dismantled? Eberle and Pouliot = dismantled?

 

[Spawn]

Dismantled? Eberle and Pouliot = dismantled?

Teams 3rd highest scoring player, teams best PK forward, and teams 3rd line C (Desharnais)... 1/3rd of the top 9. As well as knowing you're going to be without one of the teams top 3 d-men from last season for 1/2 a year and having seemingly no interest or intention to find a stop gap.

Yeah I'd say that is pretty close to dismantled.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Teams 3rd highest scoring player, teams best PK forward, and teams 3rd line C (Desharnais)... 1/3rd of the top 9. As well as knowing you're going to be without one of the teams top 3 d-men from last season for 1/2 a year and having seemingly no interest or intention to find a stop gap.

Yeah I'd say that is pretty close to dismantled.

Our definition of dismantled is considerably different. I have no idea if Desarnais wanted to leave or if Chia didn't want him back?

 

[Spawn]

Our definition of dismantled is considerably different. I have no idea if Desarnais wanted to leave or if Chia didn't want him back?

It's not so much the players that left, it's that they weren't adequately replaced.

 

[LaGu]

Lemieux also didn't have it easy, didn't he win the art ross and hart with PIT not making thd playoffs?

 

[McShogun99]

Dismantled? Eberle and Pouliot = dismantled?

We gave the NYI their second line. Hall, Pouliot, DD. Who were they replaced by? Lucic, Strome, Cammalleri, Cagiula....

 

[PositiveCashFlow]

DD was a rental, and he did get back the original piece

 

[shoop]

Our definition of dismantled is considerably different. I have no idea if Desarnais wanted to leave or if Chia didn't want him back?

No kidding.

Counting Desharnais as part of a dismantling is stretching to justify the word. I thought something extremely good is what got dismantled.

At the heart of the problem is the Lucic signing. No Looch and you could keep Maroon next year and still have paid Pou.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Just a running tally. The players that departed from last year have as follows:

Eberle: 17 goals, 22 assists, 39 points
Hendricks: 4 goals, 8 assists, 12 points
Pitlick: 9 goals, 8 assists, 17 points
Pouliot: 9 goals, 4 assists, 13 points
Desharnais: 5 goals, 17 assists, 22 points
Oesterle: 3 goals, 7 assists, 10 points


That's 44 goals, 66 assists, and 110 points let go from last year. Dismantled might be a strong word but Chia didn't even come close to replacing that production and it is disingenuous to believe that even half of those players (in addition to what we brought in) wouldn't help at least a little bit.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

We gave the NYI their second line. Hall, Pouliot, DD. Who were they replaced by? Lucic, Strome, Cammalleri, Cagiula....

We gave them a pick which they could just have easily drafted a bust with. They didn't, good for them. Hall wasn't here last season so is irrelevant to this conversation. Pouliot was garbage last season, Eberle had a very sub par year and Desharnais was never a long term solution here.

Just a running tally. The players that departed from last year have as follows:

Eberle: 17 goals, 22 assists, 39 points
Hendricks: 4 goals, 8 assists, 12 points
Pitlick: 9 goals, 8 assists, 17 points
Pouliot: 9 goals, 4 assists, 13 points
Desharnais: 5 goals, 17 assists, 22 points
Oesterle: 3 goals, 7 assists, 10 points


That's 44 goals, 66 assists, and 110 points let go from last year. Dismantled might be a strong word but Chia didn't even come close to replacing that production and it is disingenuous to believe that even half of those players (in addition to what we brought in) wouldn't help at least a little bit.

Eberle decided to work harder on his skating finally in spite of playing alongside the fastest layer in the league the 2 previous seasons and for his standards had a dog of a season last year.

Hendricks looked done by the end of his stay here. Good for him to milk another season out of his career, good guy.

Pitlick stated that he wanted a fresh start, hard for Chia to sign him if he wanted to leave.

Pouliot was crap last season and has yet to find a long term home.

Desharnais was a rental, not a long term solution. He's basically RNH lite lite.

Oesterle was an UFA, no idea if he wanted to return or not. I liked the player but he could've shown more in his last few recalls with the club. McLellan wasted this player IMO.

The biggest issues this season are that we have piss poor coaching and too many struggling players at key positions. Talbot, Klefbom, Sekera, Larsson, Lucic, etc.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Eberle decided to work harder on his skating finally in spite of playing alongside the fastest layer in the league the 2 previous seasons and for his standards had a dog of a season last year.

RNH wasn't that great last year and he wasn't sent up the river for a crappy Islanders prospect. It was a stupid trade and unless Strome becomes a cheap 20 goal guy this trade will never be anything but stupid.

Hendricks looked done by the end of his stay here. Good for him to milk another season out of his career, good guy.

He sure didn't look done against us. Then again nobody ever does. I feel like he's greatly missed in the locker room and he still chips in the odd points.

Pitlick stated that he wanted a fresh start, hard for Chia to sign him if he wanted to leave.

Point taken but his production wasn't really replaced.

Pouliot was crap last season and has yet to find a long term home.

I don't disagree that his last season wasn't great but his PK prowess is missed.

Desharnais was a rental, not a long term solution. He's basically RNH lite lite.

The Rangers signed him for exactly the same amount and term that we signed Jokinen. Just saying he's a rental is a copout.

Oesterle was an UFA, no idea if he wanted to return or not. I liked the player but he could've shown more in his last few recalls with the club. McLellan wasted this player IMO.

I think he felt he wasn't going to get a chance here with basically the entire top 6 here for the forseeable future. Another miss though.

The biggest issues this season are that we have piss poor coaching and too many struggling players at key positions. Talbot, Klefbom, Sekera, Larsson, Lucic, etc.

Chia bet on a ton of unknowns (Cagguila, Slepyshev, Khaira) and question marks (Kassian, Gryba, Pakarinen) and didn't adquately fill Sekera's absence. He took too many unnecessary and unneeded risks in a year the Oilers needed to contend. While most of the players I mentioned wouldn't move the needle all that much, the players he brought in haven't done well enough and even his previous acquisitions are failing.

McDavid, Draisatl, RNH, and Nurse are the only guys that are playing well. And none of those guys are Chia guys.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

RNH wasn't that great last year and he wasn't sent up the river for a crappy Islanders prospect. It was a stupid trade and unless Strome becomes a cheap 20 goal guy this trade will never be anything but stupid.

Nuge was crap in the regular season but was much better than Eberle in the post season. He is also younger and plays a more important position.

He sure didn't look done against us. Then again nobody ever does. I feel like he's greatly missed in the locker room and he still chips in the odd points.

He was a HS in the playoffs and leading up to the playoffs IIRC. Is that on the GM or the coach?

Point taken but his production wasn't really replaced.

Fair enough. I liked the player when he was healthy.

I don't disagree that his last season wasn't great but his PK prowess is missed.

He was a good PKer but our coaching and injuries to Klefbom, Larsson and Sekera have had a bigger impact on the PK than the loss of Pouliot IMO. Jokinen was his replacement and crapped the bed hard.

The Rangers signed him for exactly the same amount and term that we signed Jokinen. Just saying he's a rental is a copout.

He was never a long term fit here, he's a poor mans 2C. He's not a checking line center and Nuge >>>>> Desharnais as a 2C.

I think he felt he wasn't going to get a chance here with basically the entire top 6 here for the forseeable future. Another miss though.

And he may have lost confidence in the coach. He's looking like one that got away but it's not the end of the world.

Chia bet on a ton of unknowns (Cagguila, Slepyshev, Khaira) and question marks (Kassian, Gryba, Pakarinen) and didn't adquately fill Sekera's absence. He took too many unnecessary and unneeded risks in a year the Oilers needed to contend. While most of the players I mentioned wouldn't move the needle all that much, the players he brought in haven't done well enough and even his previous acquisitions are failing.

McDavid, Draisatl, RNH, and Nurse are the only guys that are playing well. And none of those guys are Chia guys.

Gryba and Pakarinen did not fail, they are what they are, organizational depth. Caggiula and Slepyshev have really crapped the bed. Khaira basically replaced Pitlick's production. Kassian and many others have been disappointments. Chia has a LOT of work to do between now and next September, good thing that he got a lot of rest from not doing sweet **** all this past summer minus signing those two huge contracts.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Nuge was crap in the regular season but was much better than Eberle in the post season. He is also younger and plays a more important position.

You're putting way too much stock into last year's playoffs. Yes it was a bad playoffs by Eberle. So what? You still need guys to help you get there. And yes he plays an important position. But just because he's younger? That's kinda silly BBO. There was no reason to not keep both this year. Clearly the GM thought Slepyshev and Cagguila could replace Eberle's production along with Strome. And any expert will tell you how dumb of a bet that is.

He was a HS in the playoffs and leading up to the playoffs IIRC. Is that on the GM or the coach?

I don't think he was necessarily needed in the playoffs but he's still a useful if small piece. I don't think it's a huge coincidence that the Jets are thriving with his leadership. They completely schooled us all three games this year.

Fair enough. I liked the player when he was healthy.

I was okay with moving on from him if he was replaced. Strome is about the equal replacement here.

He was a good PKer but our coaching and injuries to Klefbom, Larsson and Sekera have had a bigger impact on the PK than the loss of Pouliot IMO. Jokinen was his replacement and crapped the bed hard.

But the PK forwards aren't actually PKers. McDavid and Draisatl shouldn't be anywhere near a PK and Kassian frequently gets throttled. This may be part coaching issue but I think it's a personnel issue too.

He was never a long term fit here, he's a poor mans 2C. He's not a checking line center and Nuge >>>>> Desharnais as a 2C.

So what? Sign him for a year. Exact same contract as Jokinen. If that's all he wanted then give it to him.

And he may have lost confidence in the coach. He's looking like one that got away but it's not the end of the world.

It wouldn't be if this was just a one time thing. Lots of fish let go by this organization and replaced with minnows. I'd definitely rather see Oesterle than Gryba back there.

Gryba and Pakarinen did not fail, they are what they are, organizational depth. Caggiula and Slepyshev have really crapped the bed. Khaira basically replaced Pitlick's production. Kassian and many others have been disappointments. Chia has a LOT of work to do between now and next September, good thing that he got a lot of rest from not doing sweet **** all this past summer minus signing those two huge contracts.

Gryba should never have played a game this year with the Oilers. There was no reason to ever play him and every time he and Auvitu got on the ice together it was a horror show. The defense, which was still a point of concern wasn't upgraded in the slightest and with Sekera absent forced players to play above their levels (Benning).

Once again I raise the point that Chia bet on a lot of unknowns and just assumed they'd continue to grow after last year's playoffs. This is why you don't use one playoffs as a benchmark. You always go with the known commodities with this franchise. This was the exact strategy that Tambo used and he was rightly fired for it.

 

[Stoneman89]

Teams 3rd highest scoring player, teams best PK forward, and teams 3rd line C (Desharnais)... 1/3rd of the top 9. As well as knowing you're going to be without one of the teams top 3 d-men from last season for 1/2 a year and having seemingly no interest or intention to find a stop gap.

Yeah I'd say that is pretty close to dismantled.

I never had a problem moving Eberle. He had a crap season, except the last 2-3 weeks, and was invisible in the playoffs. We don't need guys like that going forward. We got crap back for him, although I don't think even Chia ever thought Strome was going to be this bad, but it was all about reducing costs and gaining cap room apparently. What ticks me off is that we have done diddly squat with that cap room to help us this year.

Desharnais was never in the plans to stay more than late last year and then the playoffs. He really did very little, but got a big playoff winner, so job accomplished and trade worked out. No biggie losing him, in my mind.

Cutting Poo loose was a bad move though, IMO. He did provide some speed, size and PK ability. He took stupid penalties and lost his confidence and scoring touch, but having him on the books for another 4 years in a buyout is stupid. We likely could have moved him and his remaining year at this TD. Chia gambled that the youngsters would be able to take the next large step into that vacant position, and he lost, big time. Saying all that, I bet Poo gets moved once again this TD by the Sabres, and he plays for his umpteenth team.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I never had a problem moving Eberle. He had a crap season, except the last 2-3 weeks, and was invisible in the playoffs. We don't need guys like that going forward. We got crap back for him, although I don't think even Chia ever thought Strome was going to be this bad, but it was all about reducing costs and gaining cap room apparently. What ticks me off is that we have done diddly squat with that cap room to help us this year.

Desharnais was never in the plans to stay more than late last year and then the playoffs. He really did very little, but got a big playoff winner, so job accomplished and trade worked out. No biggie losing him, in my mind.

Cutting Poo loose was a bad move though, IMO. He did provide some speed, size and PK ability. He took stupid penalties and lost his confidence and scoring touch, but having him on the books for another 4 years in a buyout is stupid. We likely could have moved him and his remaining year at this TD. Chia gambled that the youngsters would be able to take the next large step into that vacant position, and he lost, big time.

Chia got exactly what Strome was. A middling 30 point player that doesn't really do anything particularly well. Strome isn't even really playing that poorly. He's doing what he always did. He's just trying to justify a shitty trade that most GMs wouldn't make.

 

[ThePhoenixx]

Clicked on this thread thinking I was going to read about McDavid. Just more Chia bashing. Oh well.

 

[Jamin]

Just a running tally. The players that departed from last year have as follows:

Eberle: 17 goals, 22 assists, 39 points
Hendricks: 4 goals, 8 assists, 12 points
Pitlick: 9 goals, 8 assists, 17 points
Pouliot: 9 goals, 4 assists, 13 points
Desharnais: 5 goals, 17 assists, 22 points
Oesterle: 3 goals, 7 assists, 10 points


That's 44 goals, 66 assists, and 110 points let go from last year. Dismantled might be a strong word but Chia didn't even come close to replacing that production and it is disingenuous to believe that even half of those players (in addition to what we brought in) wouldn't help at least a little bit.

This. People keep saying Eberle doesn't matter or Pouliot doesn't matter but it's everyone together.

Ignoring the blow outs because team loses those either way. How many of our other games if we had an extra goal or two could we have won? Maybe even score first (never seen a team get scored on first so often).

 

[MinimaMoralia]

Our definition of dismantled is considerably different. I have no idea if Desarnais wanted to leave or if Chia didn't want him back?

I mean he has a point. In every sport across the globe, if gifted a talent like McDavid, generally, after three seasons, they've built the team around such luminaries and put them in full position to succeed and lead. The Oilers are one of the very, very few teams I've found that have actually decreased overall talent since getting their franchise saviour. Bizarre, man.
I mean, bizarre until you realize it's the Oilers, then it makes sense.

 

[SomeDudeOTI]

He shaved. I predict a turnaround for the season and a quick rise up the personal leader boards.