Civilization VI - Rise and Fall Expansion Coming February 8

Mount Suribachi

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Civ:BE is basically Alpha Centauri remade. You guys realize like BE, Alpha Centauri is built on the same generation Civ. game? For BE it was Civ. 5, for AC it was Civ 2. Alpha Centauri was a big improvement on Civ 2. mechanics wise, but by the time BE came out Civ 5. was at its pinnacle and you weren't getting anything more from that framework. I don't really see what would make an Alpha Centauri remake any different from BE.

Anyways, I put nearly ~2000 hours in Civ. 5. I definitely don't play games as much anymore as I did when I was putting all day sessions into Civ. 5 (kids and live in romantic partners will do that) but I'll definitely be spending a lot of time with this...

BE is nothing like SMAC remade, that's part of the problem. Just because it's Civ in space doesn't make it SMAC remade. I honestly think that's part of the problem with BE, people have such fond memories of SMAC because it was (in fact, still is) such a great game.
SMAC had a great storyline (unique for a 4x game), memorable characters, unique factions, great diplomacy, wildly different strategies for winning all of which were good in their own way, and an epic, highly quotable backstory. BE had a series of factions that were all the same except for different colours. It had some good ideas (purity/supremacy etc) but they either weren't implemented properly, or implemented enough. If I go Supremacy, I want to be a brain in a container in 200 years time, not a bloke with some google glasses. And stuff like diplomacy, how can a game from 1998 have better diplomacy than a game from 2014?

The whole gameplay was uninspiring and too easy. It was completely lacking in the "one more turn" that is the hallmark of Civ. I played 2 campaigns - one when it first came out and another post patch. I'm not bothered about playing again.

Soundtrack is epic though, I'll give it that, absolutely epic.
 

Gooch

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I purchased Civ V day 1 and was disappointed with it compared to CivIV. After some expansions it grew into a lot better of a game and I played it a lot more. I will be waiting a bit on Civ VI to make sure it is a better game than Civ V.
 

Jasper

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Mar 16, 2002
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The graphics seem to be getting some flack but I'm not disappointed at all. I really like Tropico, although it's a different kind of game, they remind me of it, and those games look great. I'm a huge fan of 4X games, I've probably bought and tried almost every single one of them on the PC, but nothing compares to Civilization games. They have so much depth because of their foundation it's ridiculous.
 

Big McLargehuge

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May 9, 2002
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I purchased Civ V day 1 and was disappointed with it compared to CivIV. After some expansions it grew into a lot better of a game and I played it a lot more. I will be waiting a bit on Civ VI to make sure it is a better game than Civ V.

The good news here is that Civ VI appears to be launching with almost as many features as Civ V has after the expansion packs. Both Civ IV & V needed the expansions to become really fully functional.

Still no doubt that Civ VI won't be at it's best until a year or two after release, but it does appear that vanilla will be a more fully fleshed out game than previous vanilla releases.
 
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Bjorn Le

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May 17, 2010
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BE is nothing like SMAC remade, that's part of the problem. Just because it's Civ in space doesn't make it SMAC remade. I honestly think that's part of the problem with BE, people have such fond memories of SMAC because it was (in fact, still is) such a great game.
SMAC had a great storyline (unique for a 4x game), memorable characters, unique factions, great diplomacy, wildly different strategies for winning all of which were good in their own way, and an epic, highly quotable backstory. BE had a series of factions that were all the same except for different colours. It had some good ideas (purity/supremacy etc) but they either weren't implemented properly, or implemented enough. If I go Supremacy, I want to be a brain in a container in 200 years time, not a bloke with some google glasses. And stuff like diplomacy, how can a game from 1998 have better diplomacy than a game from 2014?

The whole gameplay was uninspiring and too easy. It was completely lacking in the "one more turn" that is the hallmark of Civ. I played 2 campaigns - one when it first came out and another post patch. I'm not bothered about playing again.

Soundtrack is epic though, I'll give it that, absolutely epic.

I really think this argument is rooted in nostalgia. Alpha Centauri came out 17 years ago. Most people haven't played it in a decade. You can't compare it to modern standards, and it wouldn't have been such a good game if it was remade.
 

Osprey

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Feb 18, 2005
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BE is nothing like SMAC remade, that's part of the problem. Just because it's Civ in space doesn't make it SMAC remade. I honestly think that's part of the problem with BE, people have such fond memories of SMAC because it was (in fact, still is) such a great game.
SMAC had a great storyline (unique for a 4x game), memorable characters, unique factions, great diplomacy, wildly different strategies for winning all of which were good in their own way, and an epic, highly quotable backstory. BE had a series of factions that were all the same except for different colours. It had some good ideas (purity/supremacy etc) but they either weren't implemented properly, or implemented enough. If I go Supremacy, I want to be a brain in a container in 200 years time, not a bloke with some google glasses. And stuff like diplomacy, how can a game from 1998 have better diplomacy than a game from 2014?

The whole gameplay was uninspiring and too easy. It was completely lacking in the "one more turn" that is the hallmark of Civ. I played 2 campaigns - one when it first came out and another post patch. I'm not bothered about playing again.

Soundtrack is epic though, I'll give it that, absolutely epic.

It's possibly true that Beyond Earth is lacking in some of those things that you said were good about Alpha Centauri, but they're also lacking in Civ. Civ has no storyline or backstory, has characters and factions that all behave mostly the same (in fact, that's something that they're trying to address in Civ VI) and often doesn't have good diplomacy in the vanilla versions (and, like Civ usually does, BE improved on that in its first expansion). We forgive Civ for those things.

Perhaps you're too hard on BE and held it to too high of a standard (higher than even Civ, itself) so that you sabotaged your own enjoyment of it. I didn't compare it to AC--I compared it only to Civ V--and I enjoyed it and experienced that "one more turn" hook. I think that it's there, but, like any game, you have to be willing to find it. I mean, if you're letting things like the Supremacy path making you into a nerd with glasses, instead of a brain in a container, irritate you, you're probably not giving it the best chance to win you over ;).

I really think this argument is rooted in nostalgia. Alpha Centauri came out 17 years ago. Most people haven't played it in a decade. You can't compare it to modern standards, and it wouldn't have been such a good game if it was remade.

I think that you could make a really good remake, but updating it to modern standards would change it enough that some fans would complain that it doesn't resemble that 17-year-old game enough. Imagine if Civ V had been the first Civ game since Civ II. Some people would argue that it's not really Civ because it's too different. It has hexes, unstacked units, city-states, "Great Persons," a culture system, automated cities and so on. Because Civ evolved through III and IV and countless expansions, though, fan tastes and expectations evolved with the series. Alpha Centauri and expectations for it haven't evolved since 1999. A worthy successor to AC (which BE might be) might not be recognized as such because it would seem too different from what it's succeeding.
 

Mount Suribachi

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I really think this argument is rooted in nostalgia. Alpha Centauri came out 17 years ago. Most people haven't played it in a decade. You can't compare it to modern standards, and it wouldn't have been such a good game if it was remade.

Most people haven't played it in a decade, but like I said, I still play it about once a year. The graphics are bad and the sound is terrible but the gameplay is still there.

It's possibly true that Beyond Earth is lacking in some of those things that you said were good about Alpha Centauri, but they're also lacking in Civ. Civ has no storyline or backstory, has characters and factions that all behave mostly the same (in fact, that's something that they're trying to address in Civ VI) and often doesn't have good diplomacy in the vanilla versions (and, like Civ usually does, BE improved on that in its first expansion). We forgive Civ for those things.

I couldn't really get into Civ5 so not going to comment on that. But I played and still play a lot of Civ 4, and in those games the factions and leaders do have personalities - not to the extent of SMAC, but you learn how different leaders will behave. You know Isabel will hate you if you have a different religion, you know Catherine will stab you in the back, you know Tokugawa will turtle, you know Montezuma will relentlessly attack you with stacks of cheap troops until one of you is dead.
BE on the other hand? What differences are there between the leaders? None that I can tell. They have minor different benefits, and they look different, and they have different colours, and er, that's it.

Perhaps you're too hard on BE and held it to too high of a standard (higher than even Civ, itself) so that you sabotaged your own enjoyment of it. I didn't compare it to AC--I compared it only to Civ V--and I enjoyed it and experienced that "one more turn" hook. I think that it's there, but, like any game, you have to be willing to find it. I mean, if you're letting things like the Supremacy path making you into a nerd with glasses, instead of a brain in a container, irritate you, you're probably not giving it the best chance to win you over

The nerd with glasses thing is just one of the countless examples of things that just weren't quite there. That's not why I didn't enjoy it, it's just one example. Take the lore. BE has some really great tech quotes - really great. Only problem is that they're all delivered in the same anodyne voice by the same woman. SMAC has all the different leaders delivering their memorable quotes - Yang telling us that the only point of life is life itself, Zhakarov telling us that not only does God play dice, but the dice are loaded, etc. Civ4 has Leonard Nimoy delivering them with great style. BE has some great lore buried away, but with no wonder videos, no one ever reads it.

Oh, and the wonders. Some of them are terrible - many. Most in fact. I'm looking at the info thinking "is this a wonder or a normal building?" No sense of awe, no fist pump that you beat your competition to a key strategic piece.

I think that you could make a really good remake, but updating it to modern standards would change it enough that some fans would complain that it doesn't resemble that 17-year-old game enough. Imagine if Civ V had been the first Civ game since Civ II. Some people would argue that it's not really Civ because it's too different. It has hexes, unstacked units, city-states, "Great Persons," a culture system, automated cities and so on. Because Civ evolved through III and IV and countless expansions, though, fan tastes and expectations evolved with the series. Alpha Centauri and expectations for it haven't evolved since 1999. A worthy successor to AC (which BE might be) might not be recognized as such because it would seem too different from what it's succeeding.

Well, the Civ5 argument, plenty of old time Civ fans argue that its not a true Civ game anyway! :laugh: However, I think the sales figures, and the amount of people still playing it on Steam point to it's success. Like I said earlier, V isn't my cup of tea, but it clearly is a lot of other peoples and it brought a LOT of new gamers into the Civ world. And that's the thing - BE came out, and all these people playing Civ5 gave it a go and very quickly - like within a month - went back to Civ5. Most of these Civ5 players would never have played SMAC and would be too horrified by the graphics to even try. But they didn't like BE, and the people who did like SMAC, the people who still prefer IV to V, they didn't like BE either!
I remember about a year after release, just out of curiosity looking on Civfanatics to see which were the most popular forums. Civ5 was the most active by a country mile. But interestingly Civ4 - a 10 year old game - was also more active than BE.
If the new Civ5 fans don't like BE, and the old-timer Civ fans don't like BE, that only points to one thing - the game isn't very good.

It's a shame, because it could have been a great game - there's lots of good ideas in there, but they were all implemented so badly, or not implemented enough, that it just falls short in nearly every area.

Except the music. The music is epic.
 
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RandV

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I couldn't really get into Civ5 so not going to comment on that. But I played and still play a lot of Civ 4, and in those games the factions and leaders do have personalities - not to the extent of SMAC, but you learn how different leaders will behave. You know Isabel will hate you if you have a different religion, you know Catherine will stab you in the back, you know Tokugawa will turtle, you know Montezuma will relentlessly attack you with stacks of cheap troops until one of you is dead.
BE on the other hand? What differences are there between the leaders? None that I can tell. They have minor different benefits, and they look different, and they have different colours, and er, that's it.

One thing where Civ V excels over Civ IV, is while the Vanilla leaders the unique abilities are mostly a bit underwhelming, it opens up for some wonderful creativity through mods. Where as Civ IV and earlier Civ's were assigned to traits from a common pool, Civ V blows the possibilities wide open.

But like I said in my first post in this thread, what's really missing is an accessible unit editor. Like I'm playing a game with Marvel & DC Civ's right now and using Wolverine. I get these cool 'Weapon X' units with a bunch of unique abilities... but the unit graphic is just a great war infantry.
 

Gooch

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The good news here is that Civ VI appears to be launching with almost as many features as Civ V has after the expansion packs. Both Civ IV & V needed the expansions to become really fully functional.

Still no doubt that Civ VI won't be at it's best until a year or two after release, but it does appear that vanilla will be a more fully fleshed out game than previous vanilla releases.

That's a decent change from the bare bones and sell the rest to you later approach they and most games are doing.
 

RandV

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That's a decent change from the bare bones and sell the rest to you later approach they and most games are doing.

This is what the Civilization series has always done, stick to the expansion root. One of my biggest pet peeves on steam is seeing things like BNW referred to as 'DLC', which I consider to be a dirty console peasant term :sarcasm:
 

Shrimper

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Someone should check that Sean Bean didn't die during the trailer, he does in everything else he is in.
 

Osprey

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Well, the Civ5 argument, plenty of old time Civ fans argue that its not a true Civ game anyway! :laugh: However, I think the sales figures, and the amount of people still playing it on Steam point to it's success. Like I said earlier, V isn't my cup of tea, but it clearly is a lot of other peoples and it brought a LOT of new gamers into the Civ world. And that's the thing - BE came out, and all these people playing Civ5 gave it a go and very quickly - like within a month - went back to Civ5. Most of these Civ5 players would never have played SMAC and would be too horrified by the graphics to even try. But they didn't like BE, and the people who did like SMAC, the people who still prefer IV to V, they didn't like BE either!

You seem to be suggesting that Civ V fans are mostly new to Civ and that old-time fans (including SMAC fans) prefer Civ IV to Civ V. I don't know if you really believe that or you're just stretching to try to make a point about BE, but it's faulty either way.

Civ V is as popular as it is because it's been embraced by long-time Civ fans. Sure, some prefer Civ IV, but some preferred Civ III over Civ IV. Everything that you've said about Civ V (that some don't consider it true Civ and that it brought in a lot of new players) applied to Civ IV once. Every Civ iteration changes things up slightly, brings in a new wave of gamers to the Civ series and has its tiny-but-vocal crowd that insists that the last iteration was the pinnacle and is what the old-time fans will continue to play. I've been a Civ fan since 1991 and it's always been this way.

I remember about a year after release, just out of curiosity looking on Civfanatics to see which were the most popular forums. Civ5 was the most active by a country mile. But interestingly Civ4 - a 10 year old game - was also more active than BE.
If the new Civ5 fans don't like BE, and the old-timer Civ fans don't like BE, that only points to one thing - the game isn't very good.

You're jumping to a lot of conclusions here (beyond the repeated mischaracterization of Civ V fans as new fans and Civ IV fans as the long-time fans). Civ games are always going to be more popular than their spin-offs. I'm sure that Civ II was far more popular than Alpha Centauri, even though it came out 3 years earlier. Does that mean that Civ II fans didn't like Alpha Centauri? If having more forum activity means that fans like a game better than another game, then Alpha Centauri's forum having the least activity of any of the Civ-related games must mean that it's the worse Civ-related game, right? You might argue that it's because it's old, but Civ and Civ II are both older than it and have more activity.

Activity is not a good gauge of how well-liked a game is. Activity can be just as much a product of dissatisfaction as satisfaction, with people complaining about bugs, crashes and things that they don't like. Also, if a game simply doesn't sell as well, it'll be less active.

Finally, almost all fans get hooked on Civ because of the chance to experience the timeline of human history and re-make it in interesting ways. They may like to try something different and ahistorical from time to time, but it's faulty to assume that they'll play it to death, like they would a Civ game, and not eventually go back to the historical premise that hooked them in the first place. Going back to Civ doesn't necessarily mean that they didn't like the spin-off.
 
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kmad

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Jun 16, 2003
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Been a Civ addict for most of my life, all starting one fateful day when bored at lunch I wandered into my 7th grade computer lab and fired up Civ I.

I've probably put 10,000 hours into the franchise.

I doubt that's going to stop any time soon.

I'm almost as excited for this as I am for the RTJ3 tour.

For the record, Beyond Earth sucked. Rising Tide is the only Civilization thing I don't own on Steam.
 

Blender

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I think Civ IV was the better game from a mechanics point of view, but I still switched over and played Civ V and enjoyed it. There were come things Civ V did better, and some things Civ IV did better. Hopefully VI is the best of both.

The theme from Sunshine always makes for epic trailer music as well.
 

CaptainCrunch67

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Aug 23, 2005
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I used to love Civ, but stopped playing it a couple of versions ago because of balance issues that really hurt the game.

Seeing my super fighter bomber being shot down by archers, or my massive nuclear powered battleship being sunk by a sail boat with cannons kind of killed the game for me. It eventually ended up always being a race for the Manhattan project and Nuclear power. If you won that race you usually won because you could cleanse your continent of enemies.

I remember reading an article about a guy that had played Civ 2 for about 10 years and the world was an irradiated hell hole with thousand year wars happening. It was an amazing read.
 

RandV

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I used to love Civ, but stopped playing it a couple of versions ago because of balance issues that really hurt the game.

Seeing my super fighter bomber being shot down by archers, or my massive nuclear powered battleship being sunk by a sail boat with cannons kind of killed the game for me. It eventually ended up always being a race for the Manhattan project and Nuclear power. If you won that race you usually won because you could cleanse your continent of enemies.

I remember reading an article about a guy that had played Civ 2 for about 10 years and the world was an irradiated hell hole with thousand year wars happening. It was an amazing read.

Those issues have been mostly eliminated in Civ V, where engaging in combat is no longer entering the battledome. That isn't going to change for Civ VI.

I'm not 100% sure since I never did much nuking in Civ III/IV, but I don't think they're quite as strong... or maybe it's just the AI is dumber with them. There's also the option to turn them off, or if they're on then in the world council you can create a nuclear non-proliferation treaty.
 

Bjorn Le

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Those issues have been mostly eliminated in Civ V, where engaging in combat is no longer entering the battledome. That isn't going to change for Civ VI.

I'm not 100% sure since I never did much nuking in Civ III/IV, but I don't think they're quite as strong... or maybe it's just the AI is dumber with them. There's also the option to turn them off, or if they're on then in the world council you can create a nuclear non-proliferation treaty.

Well the archer being able to shoot down a plane still exists. I always wished that advanced units could only be hurt by something that could actually shoot back. Like why do my planes get hurt by a unit that has no identifiable AA capabilities? At least outdated units only deal 1/100 damage to modern units.

Nuking is weird. I found in earier patches they used it lots, but nukes really have little value if you want to conquer territory. They wipe cities from the map if sufficiently damaged but fallout is way too easily repaired. I've only seen the AI make big use of it before the expansions. It was on a real world map and Siam blobbed out of control at the end and was trading nukes seemingly every turn with Russia blob. Completely irradiated Central Asia. But other than that I was typically the only one to use them and if the AI did it against someone it was never me.
 

CaptainCrunch67

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I just remember the last time that I played, there were so many treaties happening between the 6 remaining powers, that it ended up being this 6 way nuclear war where dozens of cities just completely ceased to exist.

On one hand it was awesome, on the other hand it was frustrating, especially when one of my allies broke his treaty with me mid war and the next turn nuked 5 of my cities.
 

Mount Suribachi

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One thing I think is the best for people who love to min-max, is as a culture player you no longer have to worry about that small [city]. With local happiness you can go as wide as you want. You can build that crappy little city up in the tundra just to get that iron, and they're going to be kind of unhappy, they're going to be displeased, but you can do that because it's not going to affect your entire empire, it's just going to be that city that's unhappy

I love this. Everything else I've heard I'm very meh about, but I like this a lot.
 

Osprey

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It sounds like they're really addressing some of the things that have been quite tedious in Civ: managing workers and roads. Until now, you had to manually create roads and, even after you laid them down, it felt like half of the game time was spent giving workers new orders just to give them something to do. Now, instead of manually building roads, they're automatically created by trade routes, which makes a lot of historical sense. Also, builders (who replace workers, it seems) can build only four things before they die, so you're not going to feel compelled to have them build something just to be productive and are not going to have them staying around in need of orders indefinitely. It should be nice having no more late-game fussing with giving workers something to do, killing them to save the support cost (and risk having to create them again later) or telling them to wait for orders (which means paying them to do nothing and making it easy to forget that you have them).

It's also a huge relief to hear that global Happiness is gone. That was always a big pain to manage. My whole civilization would be crippled by unhappiness unless I made Happiness a huge priority (constructing buildings, researching technologies and adopting policies that all helped it), but doing that because I had to just to keep my civilization productive took away from my freedom to do other things and define my civilization in other ways. It was also a bit nonsensical that constructing certain buildings in one city helped the happiness in another, or, as pointed out, having unhappiness in one city (like an outpost or a recently conquered city) affected every other city. Now, it sounds like the equivalent is on a per-city basis, so that you can have a mix of happy and unhappy cities.

The justification of the art style also makes sense. They said that they wanted it to be a little exaggerated (feature and color-wise) so that you can easily tell what a building is without having to zoom in or mouse over it. Before, you clicked on a city to see all of its buildings, but, now, some are spread out in tiles ("districts") around the main tile. This'll be especially useful when looking at opponent cities, since you'll be able to know what kinds of buildings they have just from the map, giving you an early idea of whether an opponent is big on science or military, for example.

The new fog effect (that looks like parchment paper, rather than blackness) is also pretty nice and clever. It also suits Civ perfectly, lending a classical touch that evokes the ages of exploration and map charting.

Overall, it looks really good. I'm even more excited now.
 
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MikeyMike01

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Jul 13, 2007
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I think part of the reason for the cartoon style is Civ V's graphics aged really poorly.

I'm assuming they want Civ VI to look good in 5 years, without melting anyone's computer.
 

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