Cat to the table: Auston Matthews vs Patrik Laine

[McBaevid]

Laine doesn't strike me as much of a player that can carry his own line. He seems like a player that can convert on set ups by his teammates and he does that as probably the best or second best after OV. His playmaking isn't impressive neither is his overall game. He's an elite goal scorer that's ok in other aspects. Matthews is far more of a complete player and can score goals with the best of them.

 

[Peggy]

So how come when Bob McKenzie did his midseason poll Matthews was the run away winner for best rookie and he said this was done prior to Laine getting his concussion.

Crosby, Burns and Matthews top coaches' poll - Article - TSN

because there was a garbage bias for Matthews being a centre
obviously you didn't read what I said

it's all about who's having a better
rookie season. not who's the better over all rookie
don't get your rewards mixed up
having more points and more goals, being a ppg at 18 is having a better rookie season than just being more polish the difference

 

[StatisticsAddict99]

1) He's hasn't pulled ahead 2) This is only a debate again because Matthews has missed a significant amount of games...that's it.

He has...

 

[StatisticsAddict99]

This poll totally should have had divided fans apart to see who’s actually better.

 

[The List Of Jericho]

This poll totally should have had divided fans apart to see who’s actually better.

This is a fallacy....Maple Leaf players lose plenty of polls on HF, many they should even win

Majority of this poll:

Jets fans and Finnish fans for Laine

Leaf fans and the majority of the rest of HF....Matthews

 

[LeafsNation75]

because there was a garbage bias for Matthews being a centre
obviously you didn't read what I said

it's all about who's having a better
rookie season. not who's the better over all rookie
don't get your rewards mixed up
having more points and more goals, being a ppg at 18 is having a better rookie season than just being more polish the difference

At that time of McKenzie's coaches poll I believe Laine was ahead of Matthews in goals and points. Now I assume they know more than the standard user on HF, so the fact they overwhelmingly voted for Matthews said something speaks to what they thought of him at that time.

 

[StatisticsAddict99]

This is a fallacy....Maple Leaf players lose plenty of polls on HF, many they should even win

Majority of this poll:

Jets fans and Finnish fans for Laine

Leaf fans and the majority of the rest of HF....Matthews

It’s not a fallacy, the Leafs have one of the largest fan bases here and whenever Matthews name gets mentioned the votes get very, very, very high... It’s not a coincidence.

 

[M2Beezy]

How is this a thread? As a non Leafs or Jets fan i think this idea of a thread preys on the anti-Leaf bias among hockey fans. Its CLEARLY Matthews and its not close at all. Youll get the Jets and anti Leaf fans voting Laine but thats clearly not an indication of reality. Matthews AINEC from a neutral fan from a very anti-Leaf city

 

[Peggy]

At that time of McKenzie's coaches poll I believe Laine was ahead of Matthews in goals and points. Now I assume they know more than the standard user on HF, so the fact they overwhelmingly voted for Matthews said something speaks to what they thought of him at that time.

yeah. that they had a bias for his position
we've been through this already

laine went 60 for 60 and Matthews was under a ppg yet all Matthews fans had Matthews ahead.

like I said. being a more polished played as a rookie does not mean you're having a better rookie season

know the difference

it's not an mvp award

 

[LeafsNation75]

yeah. that they had a bias for his position
we've been through this already

laine went 60 for 60 and Matthews was under a ppg yet all Matthews fans had Matthews ahead.

like I said. being a more polished played as a rookie does not mean you're having a better rookie season

know the difference

it's not an mvp award

Look in the end I wouldn't get worked up over a poll that had Matthews ahead of Laine. It was just one example I was using and nothing more.

As for a bias in their position is it not true that most people would choose a #1 elite centre over a #1 elite winger? That's no shot at Laine, it's just a general conscious others have said long before both entered the NHL.

 

[Peggy]

Look in the end I wouldn't get worked up over a poll that had Matthews ahead of Laine. It was just one example I was using and nothing more.

As for a bias in their position is it not true that most people would choose a #1 elite centre over a #1 elite winger? That's no shot at Laine, it's just a general conscious others have said long before both entered the NHL.

yes, but that really has nothing to do with how you're rookie season goes

and im not worked up. I accepted Matthews had the better season st the end of the day. I just believe laine at one point was ahead yet there was a lot.of bias for Matthews

 

[LeafsNation75]

yes, but that really has nothing to do with how you're rookie season goes

and im not worked up. I accepted Matthews had the better season st the end of the day. I just believe laine at one point was ahead yet there was a lot.of bias for Matthews

If there was bias I remember it came from Gary Lawless when he claimed Laine was the runaway Calder winner when he was scoring virtually every game and when Matthews was in his 13 game goal scoring drought, in October/November 2016. It was a stupid thing for him to say at that the time.

 

[Peggy]

If there was bias I remember it came from Gary Lawless when he claimed Laine was the runaway Calder winner when he was scoring virtually every game and when Matthews was in his 13 game goal scoring drought, in October/November 2016. It was a stupid thing for him to say at that the time.

how does that sound biased? lol
laine's scoring and Matthews isn't
that sounds like it's logical if anything

 

[howkie]

The data shows that Laine doesn't know how to skate with his head up, which led to his concussion last season.

And he learnt, no concussion this year

 

[Cotton]

It’s insulting that Laine even has that much of the vote to be honest. Question is who’s the better player and he’s pitted against a 2-way 1C, who outside of everything else also had more points in less games and the better GPG at the time of his injury against the Islanders.

 

[LeafsNation75]

how does that sound biased? lol
laine's scoring and Matthews isn't
that sounds like it's logical if anything

Yet when some Leafs fans said Matthews was the Calder winner after this NHL debut which was meant as a joke and nothing more, we were told just wait for Laine.

It was biased on Lawless part because it was still so early on in the season to declare either one the Calder favorite and since Lawless worked in Winnipeg he had a bias towards Laine.

 

[Peggy]

Yet when some Leafs fans said Matthews was the Calder winner after this NHL debut which was meant as a joke and nothing more, we were told just wait for Laine.

It was biased on Lawless part because it was still so early on in the season to declare either one the Calder favorite and since Lawless worked in Winnipeg he had a bias towards Laine.

yeah I can agree it's too early to make a statement like that
but how can you hold.it against for picking the rookie with more goals and more points and not on a scoring drought? lol
that sounds about right
if it was Matthews scoring and not laine then that would be different but like you said Matthews didn't score a single point in 13 games
logic would say the rookie who's actually influencing the score board would eb ahead

 

[goblin3]

1) He's hasn't pulled ahead 2) This is only a debate again because Matthews has missed a significant amount of games...that's it.

It has been an ongoing debate for over 2 years.

How is this a thread? As a non Leafs or Jets fan i think this idea of a thread preys on the anti-Leaf bias among hockey fans. Its CLEARLY Matthews and its not close at all. Youll get the Jets and anti Leaf fans voting Laine but thats clearly not an indication of reality. Matthews AINEC from a neutral fan from a very anti-Leaf city

LOL that's just your opinion. I think most people agree no AINECs apply here.

It’s insulting that Laine even has that much of the vote to be honest. Question is who’s the better player and he’s pitted against a 2-way 1C, who outside of everything else also had more points in less games and the better GPG at the time of his injury against the Islanders.

Where does this come from? He may get there some day, but right now he's not any better 2-way player than your average 1C.

 

[LeafsNation75]

yeah I can agree it's too early to make a statement like that
but how can you hold.it against for picking the rookie with more goals and more points and not on a scoring drought? lol
that sounds about right
if it was Matthews scoring and not laine then that would be different but like you said Matthews didn't score a single point in 13 games
logic would say the rookie who's actually influencing the score board would eb ahead

Even if it was the opposite chances are any sports writers in Toronto would never come out and make that type of statement so early in the season. Although even if they did there might have been Jets fans saying there goes the Toronto media hyping up Matthews even more.

I remember Elliotte Friedman saying he can not write anything positive about the Leafs because he will get hate mail from fans of the other Canadian teams and he has no affiliation to any Canadian based team.

Now I don't blame Laine for any of that, like I said before I blame Lawless for making the statement when he did.

 

[Peggy]

Even if it was the opposite chances are any sports writers in Toronto would never come out and make that type of statement so early in the season. Although even if they did there might have been Jets fans saying there goes the Toronto media hyping up Matthews even more.

I remember Elliotte Friedman saying he can not write anything positive about the Leafs because he will get hate mail from fans of the other Canadian teams and he has no affiliation to any Canadian based team.

Now I don't blame Laine for any of that, like I said before I blame Lawless for making the statement when he did.

I never made any statements like that

if you were following the laine vs Matthews last year

a lot of leafs fans were writing off laine saying Matthews is way a head because he's a centre
even when laine was ahead on point and went 60 in 60
they still said Matthews was had
that's the kind of ignorance and shallow minded thinking I don't like

 

[Narow]

Laine is a below average winger in the D zone whereas Matthews is an average or above average center. Therefore, it's not close.

Yet for 2 seasons straight matthews line has been leaking more shots against...

On top of that more shots in relation to the rest of the team too...

Now it should be mentioned the lower icetime obviously skew the results here but we saw a very similar map to last year.


Heres laines btw. Remember his line has been allowing alot less shots against the past 2 seasons.

Note their ice times are almost identical.

So seems that both teams actually lets on less unblocked shots without either one of them....


Which is a similar result to last year...so i dont know what you consider laines linemates to be defensively but logically they should be close to elite to managa to make up for a below average winger while also preventing around 20 shots/60 that the difference is... matthews numbers gets even worse away from hyman.

Anyways my opinion isent that matthews isent better defensively but one would think it would show in shot maps about now (since that removes the goalie from equation).

So may i ask, in your opinion why does matthews/line allow very high shots against numbers? Since center should impact alot more logically alot of blame could be pu on matthews no?

(Actually i dont agree to that since there are 4 others players on ice impacting the game).

Also i dont buy that its due matthews facing tougher competition as laine did that last year...id think it might be system, but anyways whats your opinion?

 

[LeafsNation75]

I never made any statements like that

if you were following the laine vs Matthews last year

a lot of leafs fans were writing off laine saying Matthews is way a head because he's a centre
even when laine was ahead on point and went 60 in 60
they still said Matthews was had
that's the kind of ignorance and shallow minded thinking I don't like

If they were saying how Matthews was a centre it's because both he and Laine were very close and used that argument that Matthews does more playing that position.

 

[Peggy]

If they were saying how Matthews was a centre it's because both he and Laine were very close and used that argument that Matthews does more playing that position.

it wasn't close
laine had a gap

 

[LeafsNation75]

it wasn't close
laine had a gap

I don't remember exactly what the gap was, however for Matthews and Laine to be close the majority of the season considering Laine was ahead while Matthews had that 13 game scoring drought, it must have not been a lot.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Where's the option for "the one who scores 65+ goals in a season first"?