Career and peak: Patrick Kane vs Nikita Kucherov

[The Panther]

Im sorry, are you genuinely arguing that elimination games are equally important to games 1 and 2 in a playoff series?

I would in fact argue that producing in games 1 and 2 (and 3 and 4) of a playoff series is more important than producing in any single elimination game. Teams that get early leads in series usually win the series. But anything that comes down to 1 game is a coin-flip.

Obviously producing in elimination games is huge (and P. Kane has been great at that), but it's no more important than producing in early games in the series. The 4th win isn't worth more than the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd win. They're all wins.

Some of "elimination games" is very contextual, too. Like, it's a lot more important for star players to produce when the series is 3-3 or 3-2 than when his team is down 0-3, at which point extending the series is by 99.8% odds just delaying elimination.

My guess is -- and I'm not sure about this -- that star players on "stacked" (as we call them) teams would tend to produce more impressively in elimination games than star players on average-skilled clubs. That's because in the playoffs checkers tend to focus all their attention on 1-line teams and check that line into the dirt, leaving no one else who can score. If a club has two or three productive lines, that's not an option, so everyone will have a better chance of scoring even in elimination games.

This is isn't to take anything away from Kane, who has come up very big in big games (so did Jonanthan Toews, btw).

Kane and Kucherov are very comparable players, generally speaking. Both great RS finishes, both great playoff producers. As others have said, maybe Kucherov's peak is a little higher, while Kane's career accomplishments are a bit greater right now, but it's too early to have any final opinion on that since Kucherov is still in his prime.

 

[Hippasus]

Very possibly. Not yet tho.

Kucherov's potentially going to have a better resume than any player not named Crosby, McDavid or Ovechkin since the cap era started when his career is over.

The elimination game crowd probably would use that stat against Lemieux / Gretzky if they could to show Kane is some untouchable playoff god.

Kucherov still would have to pass Malkin and Kane for career, and he has competition with Mackinnon, Makar, Matthews, Draisaitl, etc. as well.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Homer vote for Kane but I wouldn't have a problem with someone picking Kucherov. Both great players.

It'd be interesting to see Kane's production in today's league if he were 5 years younger. He was a dominant player in an era with IIRC the highest goalie SV%'s we've ever seen and a lower scoring environment in general. Also played much of his regular season career without a majorly-talented center or winger

 

[authentic]

Homer vote for Kane but I wouldn't have a problem with someone picking Kucherov. Both great players.

It'd be interesting to see Kane's production in today's league if he were 5 years younger. He was a dominant player in an era with IIRC the highest goalie SV%'s we've ever seen and a lower scoring environment in general. Also played much of his regular season career without a majorly-talented center or winger

44 goals and 110 points in 81 games in 2018-19. Not hard to imagine him crossing 120 in this era, especially playing all of your ice time at even strength and on the powerplay with Hedman, Point and Stamkos.


Kucherov is the slightly better offensive producer overall but I think Kane is right there with him at his peak in the regular season and playoffs. 28 points in 22 games in 2010 is easily on par with any of Kucherov’s playoff runs the only difference is Kucherov has two that standout.

 

[ricky0034]

You can't really just look at point production. P. Kane peaked in a lower scoring era of hockey.

and on a much worse team

Kane and Kucherov's Art Rosses were pretty similar relative to the league but one of them did it on a team that scored so many goals that there was a bigger gap between them and 2nd place than there was between 2nd place and 12th place and the other did it on a team that was 9th in the league in goals

 

[CokenoPepsi]

This again?

I mean lots of recency bias for Kuch as his prime has been in a higher scoring era...

Can't speak for career yet as they both still playing.

Kucherov definitely has a big edge when it comes to linemates

 

[Gurglesons]

Kucherov still would have to pass Malkin and Kane for career, and he has competition with Mackinnon, Makar, Matthews, Draisaitl, etc. as well.

If Kucherov wins another Ross this year he has passed Kane and Malkin IMO.

Not really sure what they would have above him outside of the Smythe (which he deserved) and the Calder.

 

[authentic]

If Kucherov wins another Ross this year he has passed Kane and Malkin IMO.

Not really sure what they would have above him outside of the Smythe (which he deserved) and the Calder.

Well Malkin has being a clearly better player over him

 

[x Tame Impala]

How many career points are people expecting Kucherov to reasonably finish with as well? Kane likely finishes with at least 1300. A non-zero shot at 1400 if he can stay healthy another 2-3 seasons.

 

[Gurglesons]

Well Malkin has being a clearly better player over him

If Kucherov wins an Art Ross, what is the argument for Malkin over Kucherov?

 

[authentic]

If Kucherov wins an Art Ross, what is the argument for Malkin over Kucherov?

What isn’t the argument is the better question. Is St. Louis better than Steve Yzerman? 2 Art Ross to zero.

 

[Regal]

If Kucherov wins another Ross this year he has passed Kane and Malkin IMO.

Not really sure what they would have above him outside of the Smythe (which he deserved) and the Calder.

Why would tying Malkin with 2 Art Rosses put Kuch ahead?

 

[Gurglesons]

Why would tying Malkin with 2 Art Rosses put Kuch ahead?

What isn’t the argument is the better question. Is St. Louis better than Steve Yzerman? 2 Art Ross to zero.

I don't see how you can argue Malkin over Kucherov if he wins a Ross this year.

I'm also a Penguins fan.

 

[Regal]

I don't see how you can argue Malkin over Kucherov if he wins a Ross this year.

I'm also a Penguins fan.

And I just really don’t see why. He’d have a similar trophy case, but Malkin would still have many more years scoring at a high level.

Their top 10 point per game finishes if Kucherov finishes 1st this year would be

Malkin: 1,2,2,3,3,3,4,6,7,8
Kucherov: 1,1,2,4,4,5,8

I think Malkin was also clearly more dominant at his best and could do it with weak linemates. I don’t see Kucherov doing what Malkin did in 09 next to Talbot and Fedotenko

 

[Gurglesons]

And I just really don’t see why. He’d have a similar trophy case, but Malkin would still have many more years scoring at a high level.

Their top 10 point per game finishes if Kucherov finishes 1st this year would be

Malkin: 1,2,2,3,3,3,4,6,7,8
Kucherov: 1,1,2,4,4,5,8

I think Malkin was also clearly more dominant at his best and could do it with weak linemates. I don’t see Kucherov doing what Malkin did in 09 next to Talbot and Fedotenko

Now do points.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Right now Kucherov and Kane both have 1) several top-10 point finishes, 2) an envious playoff resume, and 3) one big kick-ass season to brag about.

Kucherov's on pace for a second of those kick-ass seasons.

 

[bobholly39]

44 goals and 110 points in 81 games in 2018-19. Not hard to imagine him crossing 120 in this era, especially playing all of your ice time at even strength and on the powerplay with Hedman, Point and Stamkos.


Kucherov is the slightly better offensive producer overall but I think Kane is right there with him at his peak in the regular season and playoffs. 28 points in 22 games in 2010 is easily on par with any of Kucherov’s playoff runs the only difference is Kucherov has two that standout.

One reason I prefer Kucherov to Kane is this:

Kane hit his peak after Blackhawks were winning cups. He was really great in their cup runs and playoffs obviously, but his offensive peak came after on weaker teams that really went nowhere.

With Kucherov, it's the opposite. He's been dominating in the regular season and playoffs at the same time, and has done so pretty much his whole career so far (obviously, shorter career than Kane for now).

I think Kucherov definitely hit a higher peak than Kane. Maybe not by an absolute huge gap, but still a noticeable one.

If one wants to argue Kane's overall career should still be ahead - considering he has almost double the games played, fine. But I think Kucherov is definitely having the better prime, and will overtake Kane in the long run (if he hasn't already - and I think he has).

If Kucherov wins an Art Ross, what is the argument for Malkin over Kucherov?

I think if you do peak or prime Kucherov would be right there with Malkin after this season. Malkin still has a long edge on longevity Kucherov would have to overcome though.

If Kucherov sweeps the Ross/Hart/Lindsey this year - to me he isn't ahead of Malkin yet, but I think his prime is certainly on par with Malkin. He would still have to play long enough and/or keep adding stuff to his resume to overtake Malkins' full career value, but would be well on his way.

A lot of people think Malkin at his best was simply "better". Fine - maybe? But you should be judged on what you accomplish, not on how good you can be at your best. People argue Lemieux was better than Gretzky at his best too - but than rank Gretzky higher.

And I just really don’t see why. He’d have a similar trophy case, but Malkin would still have many more years scoring at a high level.

Their top 10 point per game finishes if Kucherov finishes 1st this year would be

Malkin: 1,2,2,3,3,3,4,6,7,8
Kucherov: 1,1,2,4,4,5,8

I think Malkin was also clearly more dominant at his best and could do it with weak linemates. I don’t see Kucherov doing what Malkin did in 09 next to Talbot and Fedotenko

I won't say Kucherov > Malkin is definite if Kucherov sweeps awards this year - but in my opinion prime for prime Kucherov is already close to Malkin, and sweeping awards this year might start to put him ahead.

He still needs to keep adding (Malkin has 400+ games on him), but I think it'd be very possible Kucherov ends up close, and possibly ahead of Malkin all-time.

For whatever weird reason - people around here tend to underrate Kucherov and his accomplishments a lot.

 

[Faceboner]

Both incredible players who dominate in a similar fashion massive iqs and always seem to be in the perfect spot to get the puck, both players always no where to be, know where the play is going but I feel like kucherov benefitted from his team points wise more while chicago was deep as well I feel they were a more balanced lineup while the Tampa teams were more tilted to offense good question both players are roughly equal might go Kane because he has a legendary clutch factor its almost a guarantee he will have a huge positive impact in big games flip a coin for me.

 

[authentic]

One reason I prefer Kucherov to Kane is this:

Kane hit his peak after Blackhawks were winning cups. He was really great in their cup runs and playoffs obviously, but his offensive peak came after on weaker teams that really went nowhere.

With Kucherov, it's the opposite. He's been dominating in the regular season and playoffs at the same time, and has done so pretty much his whole career so far (obviously, shorter career than Kane for now).

I think Kucherov definitely hit a higher peak than Kane. Maybe not by an absolute huge gap, but still a noticeable one.

If one wants to argue Kane's overall career should still be ahead - considering he has almost double the games played, fine. But I think Kucherov is definitely having the better prime, and will overtake Kane in the long run (if he hasn't already - and I think he has).



I think if you do peak or prime Kucherov would be right there with Malkin after this season. Malkin still has a long edge on longevity Kucherov would have to overcome though.

If Kucherov sweeps the Ross/Hart/Lindsey this year - to me he isn't ahead of Malkin yet, but I think his prime is certainly on par with Malkin. He would still have to play long enough and/or keep adding stuff to his resume to overtake Malkins' full career value, but would be well on his way.

A lot of people think Malkin at his best was simply "better". Fine - maybe? But you should be judged on what you accomplish, not on how good you can be at your best. People argue Lemieux was better than Gretzky at his best too - but than rank Gretzky higher.



I won't say Kucherov > Malkin is definite if Kucherov sweeps awards this year - but in my opinion prime for prime Kucherov is already close to Malkin, and sweeping awards this year might start to put him ahead.

He still needs to keep adding (Malkin has 400+ games on him), but I think it'd be very possible Kucherov ends up close, and possibly ahead of Malkin all-time.

For whatever weird reason - people around here tend to underrate Kucherov and his accomplishments a lot.

Kanes playoff run in 2010 was right there with Kucherov adjusted for era

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

This is close, but I lean Kucherov for career and peak.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Feel confident saying peak is Kucherov.

Career not as sure. Close but might give it to Kane.

 

[Regal]

Now do points.

I mean their top 4 would be very similar:

Malkin: 1,1,2,4
Kucherov: 1,1,3,3

Kucherov then adds a 5th and a 7th

I don’t think being healthier in 2 more seasons to get a 5th and a 7th place finish really makes up for more seasons of playing like a top end player but missing some games

 

[Regal]

One reason I prefer Kucherov to Kane is this:

Kane hit his peak after Blackhawks were winning cups. He was really great in their cup runs and playoffs obviously, but his offensive peak came after on weaker teams that really went nowhere.

With Kucherov, it's the opposite. He's been dominating in the regular season and playoffs at the same time, and has done so pretty much his whole career so far (obviously, shorter career than Kane for now).

I think Kucherov definitely hit a higher peak than Kane. Maybe not by an absolute huge gap, but still a noticeable one.

If one wants to argue Kane's overall career should still be ahead - considering he has almost double the games played, fine. But I think Kucherov is definitely having the better prime, and will overtake Kane in the long run (if he hasn't already - and I think he has).



I think if you do peak or prime Kucherov would be right there with Malkin after this season. Malkin still has a long edge on longevity Kucherov would have to overcome though.

If Kucherov sweeps the Ross/Hart/Lindsey this year - to me he isn't ahead of Malkin yet, but I think his prime is certainly on par with Malkin. He would still have to play long enough and/or keep adding stuff to his resume to overtake Malkins' full career value, but would be well on his way.

A lot of people think Malkin at his best was simply "better". Fine - maybe? But you should be judged on what you accomplish, not on how good you can be at your best. People argue Lemieux was better than Gretzky at his best too - but than rank Gretzky higher.



I won't say Kucherov > Malkin is definite if Kucherov sweeps awards this year - but in my opinion prime for prime Kucherov is already close to Malkin, and sweeping awards this year might start to put him ahead.

He still needs to keep adding (Malkin has 400+ games on him), but I think it'd be very possible Kucherov ends up close, and possibly ahead of Malkin all-time.

For whatever weird reason - people around here tend to underrate Kucherov and his accomplishments a lot.

I don’t think it’d be unreasonable for Kucherov to end up ahead, I just don’t see how this year alone would do it. For me, I think Malkin has already shown he’s the better player and I doubt Kucherov will do anything to change that. Kucherov would have to have enough on his resume where it’s too hard to ignore. I think he’s still a number of years away from that

 

[Gurglesons]

I don’t think it’d be unreasonable for Kucherov to end up ahead, I just don’t see how this year alone would do it. For me, I think Malkin has already shown he’s the better player and I doubt Kucherov will do anything to change that. Kucherov would have to have enough on his resume where it’s too hard to ignore. I think he’s still a number of years away from that

Since coming into the league Kucherov is top five in raw production with those above him playing 50+ more games besides McDavid.

He's 2nd in PPG behind McDavid.

I'm not sure why you are trying to act like Kucherov hasn't done pretty much exactly what Malkin did in his career.

He also has 60 more points than anyone else in that time in the playoffs and is 7th in PPG even though he has played nearly twice as many playoffs games as the closest players above him.

 

[T REX]

Very close but I prefer Kane at his best. When the chips are down there are few better players in recent history and no Kucherov isn’t one of them.

The top 3 point scorers in 3 consecutive playoffs is literally...Gretz...Lemieux and Kuch.

If that's not when the chips are down...nothing will ever change your mind.