Canucks News, Rumours, & Fantasy GM | Dog Days of Summer

[oceanchild]

I don't buy that excuse for this season specifically. They inherited Hughes, EP, and Demko on under-market deals and that savings more than cancels out the bad deals left on the books in Myers, Pearson, and Garland. With the OEL buyout, they had the ability to build a competitive roster for this season and if they can't then it's on them.

I'm not saying they were handed an ideal situation but for this season specifically - if this team sucks again this season it will probably be because this management group's roster decisions didn't work out.

I don’t know where the exact tipping point of accountability is, we are approaching it. The Pettersson situation was created by Benning by not giving him the long term contract he wanted (as an example). I think next year when many of the contracts end and the cap situation improves significantly is when it will be fully on this group, but at that point I expect to be a dark horse for the cup or it’s a failure for them.

I dont buy any of those excuses honestly and I'm tired of the lowest bar in the world. Two years is more than enough time, especially when they identified the issues right away, took months to evaluate, and still did practically nothing for a year.

Team still has many of the same issues, still. Thats not on dimjim after 2 full offseasons, tdl, draft etc.

Dubas has been proactive, our mgnt has not, idc about different situation semantics, its about actions and results.

We are talking about a significant amount of
Complexity here. Two years is (one was in year with the roster set) not very long.

 

[arttk]

They inherited Hughes, EP, and Demko on under-market deals and that savings more than cancels out the bad deals left on the books in Myers, Pearson, and Garland.

You didn’t watch the one man wrecking machine that is OEL eh.

You think that historic bad PK is an accident?

 

[credulous]

I dont buy any of those excuses honestly and I'm tired of the lowest bar in the world. Two years is more than enough time, especially when they identified the issues right away, took months to evaluate, and still did practically nothing for a year.

i've got zero patience for the 'but benning' line of argument. other teams figure out how to dump bad contracts, navigate the salary cap and make transactions. if this team really wanted to get rid of myers or garland and had a plan for the resulting cap space the only barrier is their own inability

 

[m9]

I don’t know where the exact tipping point of accountability is, we are approaching it. The Pettersson situation was created by Benning by not giving him the long term contract he wanted (as an example). I think next year when many of the contracts end and the cap situation improves significantly is when it will be fully on this group, but at that point I expect to be a dark horse for the cup or it’s a failure for them.

There will be some accountability that goes on for a decade with the OEL stuff. All I'm saying is that for this year specifically, they inherited a few excellent cheap contracts that are pretty much balanced out by a few leftover overpaid guys. The vast majority of the money spent are on contracts they signed.

You didn’t watch the one man wrecking machine that is OEL eh.

You think that historic bad PK is an accident?

I have no idea what this has to do with my post, so you'll have to explain further.

 

[Jerry the great]

I dont buy any of those excuses honestly and I'm tired of the lowest bar in the world. Two years is more than enough time, especially when they identified the issues right away, took months to evaluate, and still did practically nothing for a year.

Team still has many of the same issues, still. Thats not on dimjim after 2 full offseasons, tdl, draft etc.

Dubas has been proactive, our mgnt has not, idc about different situation semantics, its about actions and results.

Assuming Myers starts the year with us, they've turned over 3/4 of their D and likely half the forward group in that time. Is it a failure in your opinion because they couldn't (or wouldn't pay the freight to) move out Myers or Boeser?

 

[Peter Griffin]

Can't you make a 22man compliant roster if Podkolzin & Hoglander aren't on the roster? Seem to recall it working, even with Pearson healthy.

Hoglander would have to pass through waivers in that case, but yes would be compliant. I wonder if they would waive Pearson here? Would be a really bad look after what happened last year but if he’s not good enough to make the team…

 

[m9]

Hoglander would have to pass through waivers in that case, but yes would be compliant. I wonder if they would waive Pearson here? Would be a really bad look after what happened last year but if he’s not good enough to make the team…

Lots of time before then for injuries to occur as well, and I've always been really hesitant to pencil Mikheyev in at the start of the year coming off a torn ACL. It's an extremely tight timeline to have him back for Game 1, though things seem to be progressing fine.

My thought on Hoglander in this situation would be that if he's the guy getting sent down then it means he wasn't good enough to make the team. So you can either trade him (most likely) or maybe he's just not that good and you waive him. The situation kind of takes care of itself because if he's not good enough to make the team it probably means he's continued to look like a non-NHL player and if we lost him on waivers maybe we shouldn't care that much.

Alternatively, Hoglander looks like an NHL player and then that's a great problem to have.

 

[Peter Griffin]

Lots of time before then for injuries to occur as well, and I've always been really hesitant to pencil Mikheyev in at the start of the year coming off a torn ACL. It's an extremely tight timeline to have him back for Game 1, though things seem to be progressing fine.

My thought on Hoglander in this situation would be that if he's the guy getting sent down then it means he wasn't good enough to make the team. So you can either trade him (most likely) or maybe he's just not that good and you waive him. The situation kind of takes care of itself because if he's not good enough to make the team it probably means he's continued to look like a non-NHL player and if we lost him on waivers maybe we shouldn't care that much.

Alternatively, Hoglander looks like an NHL player and then that's a great problem to have.

I just think it would be very unfortunate if the only way to be cap compliant was to move Hoglander if he does make the team. I guess if he can return a decent pick it would be ok but my guess is he wouldn’t bring back much in that situation.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

i've got zero patience for the 'but benning' line of argument. other teams figure out how to dump bad contracts, navigate the salary cap and make transactions. if this team really wanted to get rid of myers or garland and had a plan for the resulting cap space the only barrier is their own inability

I'm sure they could have moved Myers earlier, likely at the expense of a very high draft pick, or taking on another anchor contract...The fact that he gets his bonus , and he's on an expiring contract, opens up more palatable possibilities...In a market that's flooded with wingers, I dont see many teams clamouring for Beau or Garland.

I would agree with you though, that their plan to offload salary failed this off season..They misread the market...With so many teams up against the cap ,they couldn't move anybody out..Eventually forcing their hand in a move they didnt want to make (the OEL buyout).

 

[m9]

I'm sure they could have moved Myers earlier, likely at the expense of a very high draft pick, or taking on another anchor contract...The fact that he gets his bonus , and he's on an expiring contract, opens up more palatable possibilities...In a market that's flooded with wingers, I dont see many teams clamouring for Beau or Garland.

I would agree with you though, that their plan to offload salary failed this off season..They misread the market...With so many teams up against the cap ,they couldn't move anybody out..Eventually forcing their hand in a move they didnt want to make (the OEL buyout).

They're the ones who acquired Beau because they couldn't pull off a deal without getting a cap dump back. And then made a similar deal themselves (Hronek) without themselves being able to dump a contract even though it seems like most other teams can do it.

More than likely they've had some options for Garland along the way given the information out there and also that he's a decent player.

Will give them a pass on Myers, not much they could probably do there.

 

[Peen]

If Pearson is healthy and looks like good Pearson, they actually need him desperately in the top nine. Way too many small or soft players.

 

[Vector]

If Pearson is healthy and looks like good Pearson, they actually need him desperately in the top nine. Way too many small or soft players.

The last time he looked good was quite a long time ago. He was healthy but was slow and ineffective before his injury.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Coaches seem to like Pearson, generally a responsible 2 way player..Also, (as Peen alluded to), the Canucks have too much 'light skill' on the wings..(this is where they need Podz to have a breakthrough).

It will be interesting to see in the pre season, if the game is passing him by, or he can rise to the occasion...He was going through an awful stretch before he got injured, taking consecutive lazy penalties, which cost us a game or two.

 

[VanillaCoke]

We are talking about a significant amount of
Complexity here. Two years is (one was in year with the roster set) not very long.

Assuming Myers starts the year with us, they've turned over 3/4 of their D and likely half the forward group in that time. Is it a failure in your opinion because they couldn't (or wouldn't pay the freight to) move out Myers or Boeser?

This is exactly the type of low bar canucks fan excuses im talking about, (not directed at you two butbin general) its really shocking to me to read ppl who are satisfied, or even pleased with the progress.

As has been mentioned plenty of other teams have been able to do all sorts of transactions.

This team has alot of the same issues as when dumbo left, thats pathetic.
If you hated your boss/mgmt, finally the company fires them and the new ppl say alot of the right things but two years later your sitting at your desk with many many of the same issues you're going to be happy? Relieved? Impressed?

3/4 of the D or different bottom six players is nice, but basic, every team in the entire league does those things.

And no I want to keep boeser, the no context constant criticism is irrational and extreme.

Its a failure because its very close to 2 years in and the team, the cap, the pipeline, the holes, the , the outlook is basically the same as every other year.

On this board theres ppl heavily critical of yzerman in yr 4, but also saying we cant even begin to judge our mgnt until next summer, 2.5 years 3 drafts 3 free agencies and 3 tdls. Thats weird imo. Whats been accomplished?
Hronek for horvat...
Soucy cole bluger...

Maybe something happens before camp thats impressive, creative, unexpected, but more is needed on all fronts to move the needle. Im rambling but other ppl are more succinct, you get the point.

 

[Peen]

i don’t care if they don’t immediately replace myers either.

they can just maintain the cap flexibility from dumping myers to the start of the season.

i just think he’s such a net negative. there isn’t an obvious partner for him either on a bottom pairing.

i would be curious to see who shakes loose on waivers or via trade availability prior to seasons start. having that available top six role would be beneficial.

 

[wonton15]

i don’t care if they don’t immediately replace myers either.

they can just maintain the cap flexibility from dumping myers to the start of the season.

i just think he’s such a net negative. there isn’t an obvious partner for him either on a bottom pairing.

i would be curious to see who shakes loose on waivers or via trade availability prior to seasons start. having that available top six role would be beneficial.

I’ve been saying this for over a year, and so many people on here counter with “but who will replace his huge minutes?!!”

Literally anyone in our system? Myers is such an insane net negative on the ice even if you ignore his cap. He’s ass.

 

[arttk]

There will be some accountability that goes on for a decade with the OEL stuff. All I'm saying is that for this year specifically, they inherited a few excellent cheap contracts that are pretty much balanced out by a few leftover overpaid guys. The vast majority of the money spent are on contracts they signed.



I have no idea what this has to do with my post, so you'll have to explain further.

sure, i think it's flawed to evaluate the team based on expected value.

I don't think the problem is that they are overpaid, the problem is that those players are incredibly flawed and their attributes makes the team incredibly flawed, like having a historically bad PK type of flawed. even if OEL and Myers played like they did the year before and offer more value, it wouldn't change the fact that they made our PK f***ing shit and that alone would tank the teams performance despite them offering somewhat acceptable value contract wise.

Also, the reality is that OEL and Myers cost 14M against the cap and other players providing excess value doesn't mean we now have extra money that we can spend on defense to negate the negative impact we have from Myers and OEL.

 

[andora]

Without confirmation somewhere being reported i always see the description as 'mis-reading the market'. Do we think it ia reasonable to assume mgmt had groupthink think oh yeah player A will be so easy to move with no negative impact to our roster. Or that not one member asked the question what if we cant move player A for free - which on the flip side have them making moves that were done assuming they would be able to make other moves.

Seems unreasonable to assume .. anyway

 

[m9]

sure, i think it's flawed to evaluate the team based on expected value.

I don't think the problem is that they are overpaid, the problem is that those players are incredibly flawed and their attributes makes the team incredibly flawed, like having a historically bad PK type of flawed. even if OEL and Myers played like they did the year before and offer more value, it wouldn't change the fact that they made our PK f***ing shit and that alone would tank the teams performance despite them offering somewhat acceptable value contract wise.

Also, the reality is that OEL and Myers cost 14M against the cap and other players providing excess value doesn't mean we now have extra money that we can spend on defense to negate the negative impact we have from Myers and OEL.

We were talking about this year specifically, not last year

 

[credulous]

sure, i think it's flawed to evaluate the team based on expected value.

I don't think the problem is that they are overpaid, the problem is that those players are incredibly flawed and their attributes makes the team incredibly flawed, like having a historically bad PK type of flawed. even if OEL and Myers played like they did the year before and offer more value, it wouldn't change the fact that they made our PK f***ing shit and that alone would tank the teams performance despite them offering somewhat acceptable value contract wise.

Also, the reality is that OEL and Myers cost 14M against the cap and other players providing excess value doesn't mean we now have extra money that we can spend on defense to negate the negative impact we have from Myers and OEL.

bear, schenn, hughes and burroughs all played more pk minutes than oel. myers did lead the team in pk time but he did that under both boudreau and tocchet and i'd expect him to get a ton of pk time again this upcoming season

anyone who thinks getting rid of oel is the secret to fixing the pk is just hoping

 

[strattonius]

bear, schenn, hughes and burroughs all played more pk minutes than oel. myers did lead the team in pk time but he did that under both boudreau and tocchet and i'd expect him to get a ton of pk time again this upcoming season

anyone who thinks getting rid of oel is the secret to fixing the pk is just hoping

The change on the PK is Soucy, Cole, Hronek, Blueger and Suter. There's been a huge emphasis on improving the pk this offseason and I'm honestly not sure how it's even a debate that the PK will be improved.

 

[credulous]

The change on the PK is Soucy, Cole, Hronek, Blueger and Suter. There's been a huge emphasis on improving the pk this offseason and I'm honestly not sure how it's even a debate that the PK will be improved.

i didn't say the pk won't be better. it just won't be better because oel -- a player who didn't kill many penalties (especially after the new years break) -- is no longer with the team

they almost certainly will get improvement just from regression to the mean. it would be extremely hard to put up back to back worst in the modern era penalty kill performances

 

[Jerry the great]

This is exactly the type of low bar canucks fan excuses im talking about, (not directed at you two butbin general) its really shocking to me to read ppl who are satisfied, or even pleased with the progress.

As has been mentioned plenty of other teams have been able to do all sorts of transactions.

This team has alot of the same issues as when dumbo left, thats pathetic.
If you hated your boss/mgmt, finally the company fires them and the new ppl say alot of the right things but two years later your sitting at your desk with many many of the same issues you're going to be happy? Relieved? Impressed?

3/4 of the D or different bottom six players is nice, but basic, every team in the entire league does those things.

And no I want to keep boeser, the no context constant criticism is irrational and extreme.

Its a failure because its very close to 2 years in and the team, the cap, the pipeline, the holes, the , the outlook is basically the same as every other year.

On this board theres ppl heavily critical of yzerman in yr 4, but also saying we cant even begin to judge our mgnt until next summer, 2.5 years 3 drafts 3 free agencies and 3 tdls. Thats weird imo. Whats been accomplished?
Hronek for horvat...
Soucy cole bluger...

Maybe something happens before camp thats impressive, creative, unexpected, but more is needed on all fronts to move the needle. Im rambling but other ppl are more succinct, you get the point.

Too early to say how either of their first two drafts went IMO.

Their first offseason was absolutely solid (other than the Boeser signing).
Signed a top 10-15 RW in the game (and resigned him to a team friendly extension)

Added low risk legitimate prospects to the system without having the luxury of a lot of draft capital (Bains, Aman, Johansson).

Made a decent start on addressing the issue of the teams lack of speed with the Makhevev signing.

Prioritized signing the right soon to be UFA centre and got him inked to what looks like fairly reasonable contract based on deals we've see since then (notably the guy we sold high on).

Trading a 2nd line C and a ~50 spot move in the draft for a desperately needed all situations top 4 (with upside) RHD, middle 6 winger and a decent C prospect.

More low risk prospects added without draft capital (Hirose, McWard, Sasson)

This offseason as been solid as well. Added more speed and centre depth on very reasonable contracts specifically targeting players that should meaningfully improve the PK.

Added versatile (each play both sides) defenders with size and grit that will also help the PK and didn't commit financial suicide to do it.

These guys inherited a very disgruntled team with serious cap issues and have managed the situation pretty well all things considered.

 

[arttk]

bear, schenn, hughes and burroughs all played more pk minutes than oel. myers did lead the team in pk time but he did that under both boudreau and tocchet and i'd expect him to get a ton of pk time again this upcoming season

anyone who thinks getting rid of oel is the secret to fixing the pk is just hoping

Our PK was league average after OEL was injured and that was despite us icing AHL and NCAA guys.

 

[arttk]

We were talking about this year specifically, not last year

We were talking about this year specifically, not last year

i think the point still stands. We have a roster issue with the leftover from benning. A RD that sucks at the PK and Garland that makes no sense almost anywhere on this roster.

The fact Petey and others offer more value doesn’t change the fact that those guys makes no sense on the roster.