Canucks Management and Ownership Thread v27.0

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Nomobo

Registered User
Feb 20, 2015
6,317
3,067
Victoria
Only because it happens to coincide with your opinion. There are absolutely zero facts to back up anything he says in there about the Canucks.

Sutter and Granlund are 2C's now? :lol:


Maybe you don't get it because it's not based on numbers but only common sense. :)

I
 

AwesomeInTheory

A Christmas miracle
Aug 21, 2015
4,282
4,522
That's your problem. You believe that you can assemble a hockey team and make acquisitions based purely on analytics and ignoring everything else.......but I have been through that before and it's obviously not being understood.

What hockey team was built solely through analytics? To date, I don't believe there's been a single team (including the Gillis-era Canucks -- we can start with Gillis' decision to rely on old clients {Demitra, Sundin and I think Hordichuk} as being an early example, but also point to the continued existence of Delorme {who is very much an old school 'meat and potatoes' guy} in the Canucks hierarchy as another example if you want to really press that point.

A lot of the criticisms towards Benning stems from him coming across as an anti-intellectual and a lot of things have become a shorthand on here. So yeah, Benning = dumb is lazy, but this is a message board and there are a lot of tired arguments that don't need to be retread.

That said, within the context of what you're arguing about, the problem some folks have on here is that Benning seems to really minimize analytics and other data while going with more old school approaches. I say minimize because there's a quote floating around out there where Benning says that they're a nice thing to have, but he seemed to equate it to having parsley on a steak -- nice to have, but not necessary for the meal (my paraphrasing, not his, just FYI.)

Old school approaches include things like 'gut feelings', 'eye tests', 'physicality', the Art Donovan test , whether or not the guy is a Euro, etc.

Lots of folks view this approach as outdated, even if there are valid things to be looking for within that sort of context. You want to be impressed by a big guy with mobility or a smaller dude who has an ass like Martin St. Louis or a guy who is a sparkplug like Matt Cooke.

There is frustration with Canucks fans because the Canucks are seemingly getting burnt at every turn using this philosophy and approach, while teams who are placing more of an emphasis on analytics are doing better than the Canucks. It's especially contrasted when the Canucks did have a forward thinking GM who did make use of this type of data and there was such a huge philosophical shift in the front office that it was jarring.

Boeser looks promising. Demko looks promising. But Andrew Raycroft was a Calder winner and Cody Hodgson had 'future captain' written all over him. And after that, there's a pretty steep drop off, with the corpses of guys like Mackenzie Stewart, Linden Vey and Adam Clendening strewn about the bottom.

And just because there are 1 or 2 players looking like they have potential, it doesn't excuse the fact that Benning's batting far below .500 with his personnel moves and that is cause for concern. Moreso because he's touted as a 'master scout' or an excellent judge of talent or whatever he was billed as when coming to Vancouver.

It hasn't instilled a lot of confidence.

EDIT: Also, it should be noted that statistics are just that: numbers on a sheet. They can tell you things and provide you with insight you might not already have, but using statistics as the end-all, be-all is just as bad as taking the Benning approach and shunning said data. The ability to properly interpret data and pull the information you need from it is just as useful as having the knowledge and experience to be able to 'eye test' a guy (which is something hundreds of posters on these very boards do every day...how many times have folks asked for updates on the Comets from Utica Canuck by asking something like 'how did So and So look?')

It just seems right now the Canucks are way over on one end of the spectrum.
 
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Catamarca Livin

Registered User
Jul 29, 2010
4,908
983
Remember when we finished 6th last while also being right up against the cap ceiling? What kind of thinking was that the result of?

1) If you had a plan to get a big house and a lot of girlfriends and you had your entire career riding on the outcome would you announce your plan to the world? What you call the goal, which is just the plan in its distilled form, is the highest level of detail you should expect from any GM for very good reasons. To categorically state that they have no plan is baseless and it just shows your bias.

2) I've been studying the Trump phenomenon and while I am not taking this political, nor do I wish to, if anything you're the one who resembles Trump and his voters. You're selling the idea that the [nux/usa] are in a state of disaster, that the management is completely incompetent, you're so frustrated by the establishment that you want to see them all fired, you absurdly caricature their dealmaking then try to hammer them on deals that weren't even that bad at all, your idea of re-building the [nux/usa] is to set everything on fire and hope things get better, you'd rather someone with zero experience run the [nux/usa], you relentlessly insult and mock the people who disagree with you and accuse them of being shills, you delude yourselves with confirmation bias and parrot discredited narratives over and over on a website that you've turned into an angry echo chamber, and you use subtly racist words like how do you know I don't have ancestry from Crete?

3) Better players are already on their way. Boeser's a teenager who could already step into the top 6, Juolevi is like the safest bet for becoming a top pairing D out of all NHL prospects. The G and D and W positions are mostly set with loads of young talent. The C position is set with Hank, Bo, Butters, and Granny which is like having a 1C and three potential 2C's on any given night. What don't you like about the roster, what improvements do you want to see, and in what position? Because I don't understand your fascination with stockpiling draft picks at the expense of a winning culture when there aren't even spots for those picks. If we were to do as you suggest we would have too many young talented players competing for limited spots and we'd lose them on waivers for nothing while also destroying the winning environment so that the ones we don't lose to waivers miss out on the chance to rub shoulders with experienced veteran mentors and absorb their winning culture by osmosis. You strike me as someone who hasn't thought of all the complex dynamics involved in teambuilding, especially the aspects that aren't found in the NHL video games.

4) Sedins will be dead soon? Did you miss the WC? Did you miss last night's game? Here's what they can still do https://streamable.com/23bm and it looks like they've still got plenty left in the tank to me.

Great post especially link Trump to the fear spreading on this forum. Trump is the candidate of massive change based on fear of the future and overstating of the present situation. That is very similar to the many posters on here. If you do not agree with their opinion then you are a stooge for management or are accused of a need to appeal to authority. I think we could have a number of down years however I also know there was little management could have done since 2014 to change that. I support many of the things they have done. I do not want the team to lose on purpose while the Sedins are playing. There is plenty of time to tank in the future and the parts they are accumulating now will help then.
 

Canucker

Go Hawks!
Oct 5, 2002
25,551
4,759
Oak Point, Texas
What hockey team was built solely through analytics? To date, I don't believe there's been a single team (including the Gillis-era Canucks -- we can start with Gillis' decision to rely on old clients {Demitra, Sundin and I think Hordichuk} as being an early example, but also point to the continued existence of Delorme {who is very much an old school 'meat and potatoes' guy} in the Canucks hierarchy as another example if you want to really press that point.

A lot of the criticisms towards Benning stems from him coming across as an anti-intellectual and a lot of things have become a shorthand on here. So yeah, Benning = dumb is lazy, but this is a message board and there are a lot of tired arguments that don't need to be retread.

That said, within the context of what you're arguing about, the problem some folks have on here is that Benning seems to really minimize analytics and other data while going with more old school approaches. I say minimize because there's a quote floating around out there where Benning says that they're a nice thing to have, but he seemed to equate it to having parsley on a steak -- nice to have, but not necessary for the meal (my paraphrasing, not his, just FYI.)

Old school approaches include things like 'gut feelings', 'eye tests', 'physicality', the Art Donovan test , whether or not the guy is a Euro, etc.

Lots of folks view this approach as outdated, even if there are valid things to be looking for within that sort of context. You want to be impressed by a big guy with mobility or a smaller dude who has an ass like Martin St. Louis or a guy who is a sparkplug like Matt Cooke.

There is frustration with Canucks fans because the Canucks are seemingly getting burnt at every turn using this philosophy and approach, while teams who are placing more of an emphasis on analytics are doing better than the Canucks. It's especially contrasted when the Canucks did have a forward thinking GM who did make use of this type of data and there was such a huge philosophical shift in the front office that it was jarring.

Boeser looks promising. Demko looks promising. But Andrew Raycroft was a Calder winner and Cody Hodgson had 'future captain' written all over him. And after that, there's a pretty steep drop off, with the corpses of guys like Mackenzie Stewart, Linden Vey and Adam Clendening strewn about the bottom.

And just because there are 1 or 2 players looking like they have potential, it doesn't excuse the fact that Benning's batting far below .500 with his personnel moves and that is cause for concern. Moreso because he's touted as a 'master scout' or an excellent judge of talent or whatever he was billed as when coming to Vancouver.

It hasn't instilled a lot of confidence.

EDIT: Also, it should be noted that statistics are just that: numbers on a sheet. They can tell you things and provide you with insight you might not already have, but using statistics as the end-all, be-all is just as bad as taking the Benning approach and shunning said data. The ability to properly interpret data and pull the information you need from it is just as useful as having the knowledge and experience to be able to 'eye test' a guy (which is something hundreds of posters on these very boards do every day...how many times have folks asked for updates on the Comets from Utica Canuck by asking something like 'how did So and So look?')

It just seems right now the Canucks are way over on one end of the spectrum.

Good post, enjoyed reading it.
 

AwesomeInTheory

A Christmas miracle
Aug 21, 2015
4,282
4,522
The Trump comparisons are so laughably off base I'm not sure if they're meant to be satirical.

You're selling the idea that the [nux/usa] are in a state of disaster, that the management is completely incompetent

Based on their track record, how the team has performed and how they continue to contradict themselves and look like they're without a clue to the media.

Benning got slapped with a tampering charge, Linden's dumb comments, "100 point playoff team", etc.

This is a little different from the Donald bringing up Bill Clinton's sex life to discredit his political opponent (who is not Bill Clinton, FYI.)

you're so frustrated by the establishment that you want to see them all fired,

And yet no one has held a rally outside of GM Place demanding Benning get fired, unlike the previous regime. This is what happens in sports.

you absurdly caricature their dealmaking then try to hammer them on deals that weren't even that bad at all

The truth hurts and I'm sorry you take it so personally. Just breathe, relax, and remember it's just professional sports. You're allowed to disagree. :)

your idea of re-building the [nux/usa] is to set everything on fire and hope things get better, you'd rather someone with zero experience run the [nux/usa],

Some folks have advocated a scorched earth policy with the Canucks, but arguing that all people critical of Benning advocate such an approach is fallacious and is very similar to Trump's continued whinging about how the Liberals/mainstream media/SNL/Joe the Plumber are all a hivemind. So I'd be careful about the accusations being tossed around.

you delude yourselves with confirmation bias

Like proclaiming that the Sedins are here to stay after a (very short and pointless) tournament and 1 regular season game?

and parrot discredited narratives over and over on a website that you've turned into an angry echo chamber, and you use subtly racist words like how do you know I don't have ancestry from Crete?

Nice word salad. I prefer Caesar, myself. Also, the aforementioned nonsense about how the etymological origins for cretin/cretinism has nothing to do with Crete (what was that again about 'you relentlessly insult and mock the people who disagree with you'? Wouldn't accusing the person you're arguing with about being a racist fall under that?

Again, I would be careful about your words and how you use them.
 
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Intoewsables

Registered User
Jul 30, 2009
5,755
2,898
Toronto
Both Jim Benning and Donald Trump hold grossly inflated opinions of themselves, and both have hired openly racist dudes. Just saying...
 

Beansy*

Registered User
Sep 10, 2016
1,885
0
Both Jim Benning and Donald Trump hold grossly inflated opinions of themselves, and both have hired openly racist dudes. Just saying...

Benning really does not come across as having an ego at all. He just seems very confident in his approach. He could care less if you call him names or boo his moves. He's nothing like Trump.
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
10,319
Surrey, BC
Benning really does not come across as having an ego at all. He just seems very confident in his approach. He could care less if you call him names or boo his moves. He's nothing like Trump.

Oh he definitely does have an ego. Just the smug look on his face every time someone calls him out on his stupidity at those Town Halls.
 

Breakers

Make Mirrored Visors Legal Again
Aug 5, 2014
21,531
19,964
Denver Colorado
Man I wish Vancouver had more cap space.

Doing what Arizona and Toronto are doing with taking on salary from contending teams in exchange for high-end prospects and picks is sooo smart.

:naughty::naughty:
 

Beansy*

Registered User
Sep 10, 2016
1,885
0
Oh he definitely does have an ego. Just the smug look on his face every time someone calls him out on his stupidity at those Town Halls.

I honestly think he doesn't. Regarding the town halls, the people there with the biggest ego's would be Linden and the people asking the questions.
 

Beansy*

Registered User
Sep 10, 2016
1,885
0
Man I wish Vancouver had more cap space.

Doing what Arizona and Toronto are doing with taking on salary from contending teams in exchange for high-end prospects and picks is sooo smart.

:naughty::naughty:

Benning is on record for opposing this as a means of making the team better.
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
10,319
Surrey, BC
I honestly think he doesn't. Regarding the town halls, the people there with the biggest ego's would be Linden and the people asking the questions.

The people slamming management with tough questions were more than justified. We don't agree with what management is doing, yet we're the ones who spend a lot on those expensive season tickets. Well, I could at least be part of that group in the past. I don't spend a dime on this team anymore.
 

Beansy*

Registered User
Sep 10, 2016
1,885
0
The people slamming management with tough questions were more than justified. We don't agree with what management is doing, yet we're the ones who spend a lot on those expensive season tickets. Well, I could at least be part of that group in the past. I don't spend a dime on this team anymore.

I never said they were not justified. Some of them were. Some of them were not. Most all of the people asking questions came off as complete ego-maniacs regardless of justification.
 

racerjoe

Registered User
Jun 3, 2012
12,202
5,915
Vancouver
The Trump comparisons are so laughably off base I'm not sure if they're meant to be satirical.



Based on their track record, how the team has performed and how they continue to contradict themselves and look like they're without a clue to the media.

Benning got slapped with a tampering charge, Linden's dumb comments, "100 point playoff team", etc.

This is a little different from the Donald bringing up Bill Clinton's sex life to discredit his political opponent (who is not Bill Clinton, FYI.)

you're so frustrated by the establishment that you want to see them all fired,
And yet no one has held a rally outside of GM Place demanding Benning get fired, unlike the previous regime. This is what happens in sports.



The truth hurts and I'm sorry you take it so personally. Just breathe, relax, and remember it's just professional sports. You're allowed to disagree. :)



Some folks have advocated a scorched earth policy with the Canucks, but arguing that all people critical of Benning advocate such an approach is fallacious and is very similar to Trump's continued whinging about how the Liberals/mainstream media/SNL/Joe the Plumber are all a hivemind. So I'd be careful about the accusations being tossed around.



Like proclaiming that the Sedins are here to stay after a (very short and pointless) tournament and 1 regular season game?



Nice word salad. I prefer Caesar, myself. Also, the aforementioned nonsense about how the etymological origins for cretin/cretinism has nothing to do with Crete (what was that again about 'you relentlessly insult and mock the people who disagree with you'? Wouldn't accusing the person you're arguing with about being a racist fall under that?

Again, I would be careful about your words and how you use them.

Now this was one of the best replies on a post I have seen.
 

Roy Baby*

Registered User
Sep 28, 2015
792
1
Phoenix,AZ
Maybe you don't get it because it's not based on numbers but only common sense. :)

I

Don't fall for the trap...that kid isn't even a Canucks fan, just a frustrated Leafs plant..


Player A: 25 G 20 A 45 P
Player B: 27 G 23 A 50 P


Player B is better. That's how "sophisticated" the line of thinking is with these so-called stats :laugh:


Only people that actually played sports growing up knows there's way too many factors, but commitment will always be #1. Not debatable at all.
 

ProstheticConscience

Check dein Limit
Apr 30, 2010
18,459
10,107
Canuck Nation
Remember when we finished 6th last while also being right up against the cap ceiling? What kind of thinking was that the result of?

1) If you had a plan to get a big house and a lot of girlfriends and you had your entire career riding on the outcome would you announce your plan to the world? What you call the goal, which is just the plan in its distilled form, is the highest level of detail you should expect from any GM for very good reasons. To categorically state that they have no plan is baseless and it just shows your bias.

2) I've been studying the Trump phenomenon and while I am not taking this political, nor do I wish to, if anything you're the one who resembles Trump and his voters. You're selling the idea that the [nux/usa] are in a state of disaster, that the management is completely incompetent, you're so frustrated by the establishment that you want to see them all fired, you absurdly caricature their dealmaking then try to hammer them on deals that weren't even that bad at all, your idea of re-building the [nux/usa] is to set everything on fire and hope things get better, you'd rather someone with zero experience run the [nux/usa], you relentlessly insult and mock the people who disagree with you and accuse them of being shills, you delude yourselves with confirmation bias and parrot discredited narratives over and over on a website that you've turned into an angry echo chamber, and you use subtly racist words like how do you know I don't have ancestry from Crete?

3) Better players are already on their way. Boeser's a teenager who could already step into the top 6, Juolevi is like the safest bet for becoming a top pairing D out of all NHL prospects. The G and D and W positions are mostly set with loads of young talent. The C position is set with Hank, Bo, Butters, and Granny which is like having a 1C and three potential 2C's on any given night.

Well, I was expecting a huge load of ********* in response, and I wasn't disappointed. Congratulations on continuing to take everything personally.

1) My statement that they have no plan is not baseless. It's based on the inconsistent deals they've made, the inconsistent statements they've made, the fact that Linden and Benning have disagreed with each other publicly, the statements from players in their exit interviews that they didn't know what the plan was, and...oh yeah. The fact the team's crap.

2) One big strawman. I never said I wanted the whole thing burned down. Discredited narratives? Subtly racist language...? WTF are you talking about? The "narrative" I'm pushing is that there's no basis to believe the team will be successful without major alteration. My basis for believing this is the failure of the last two seasons. One year we get humiliated in one round, the next we sink to the bottom of the standings. Still the brain trust sees this as a winner. What they're saying simply isn't consistent with the results we've seen. I "absurdly caricature" the deals Benning's made? Where the **** are you getting this? Like not getting anything whatsoever for Vrbata and Hamhuis at the deadline then watching them both walk for nothing is supposed to be good asset management?

3) Okay. Boeser, Juolevi, Stecher, and Demko. That's four players. You need a hell of a lot more to make a hockey team. Granlund, Sutter and Horvat are like second line centres? In what drug-addled fantasy did you come up with that? Sutter's never scored more than 40 points in a season, Horvat's a 3rd year pro WD just stuck on the 4th line, and Granlund's only claim to fame so far is one good preseason. That's it. These are your future top 3 centres? Look around the NHL. Look at the what the contenders have down the middle, then look at us. I noticed you didn't throw any good young winger prospects besides Boeser and Virtanen because...oh yeah. We haven't ****ing got any. Have a look in Utica sometime. Tell me how many good wingers we've got waiting to come up. "Stockpiling draft picks at the expense of a winning culture" I love that. Because we've got neither. I love how the Benning apologists all keep acting like we've got some great thing going. You know what instills a "winning culture"? Actually ****ing winning. Which we haven't done a whole lot of in a while. There is no winning culture to disrupt, period.

What don't you like about the roster, what improvements do you want to see, and in what position? Because I don't understand your fascination with stockpiling draft picks at the expense of a winning culture when there aren't even spots for those picks.

What I don't like about the roster is it's too small, too slow, doesn't score enough goals, doesn't prevent enough goals, and has no discernible identity. This team scored the fewest goals ever in a season over the team's entire history last season. You think this doesn't need improving?

And here, I want to deal with this gem on its own.

If we were to do as you suggest we would have too many young talented players competing for limited spots and we'd lose them on waivers for nothing while also destroying the winning environment so that the ones we don't lose to waivers miss out on the chance to rub shoulders with experienced veteran mentors and absorb their winning culture by osmosis
^^^^^^^^ This is exactly why we're the most talent-poor, asset-poor team in the NHL. This thinking right here. I have no doubt Lindenningbrod think exactly like this. Just the fact that you seriously think there's such a thing as having too many young talented players is very telling. You know what competent GMs do when they've got a surplus of young talent? They create internal competition for jobs. They keep the best players with the best character, and trade the ones that prove redundant. Of course, I wouldn't expect a Benning fan to be aware of this. It involves making good trades for your team, which Benning is of course nigh bloody useless at.

As for all this "mentorship", I got two words for you. Martin Brodeur.

Tell me who he mentored. Know why you can't? Because he never mentored ****ing anybody. See, one of the "complex dynamics in teambuilding" that you apparently didn't figure out is that these veteran mentors are in fact competing for jobs with the new kids. Remember Prust's hissy fit last year? That was him losing a job to one of the kids he was supposed to be "mentoring". This team learned absolutely the wrong lesson from Luongo/Schneider. They looked at the whole "goalie controversy" thing, and apparently decided the solution was to never have internal competition for jobs, but that's what's going to separate the contenders. They're not winning because the young kids come up to learn and absorb "through osmosis" how to win from the vets. They're winning because the kids are good enough to outplay the vets and actually win games on their own.

THAT'S what this team needs to do.

4) Sedins will be dead soon? Did you miss the WC? Did you miss last night's game? Here's what they can still do https://streamable.com/23bm and it looks like they've still got plenty left in the tank to me.

The Sedins are 36 years old. They've got this season and next season on their contracts, that's it. Will they stay? You don't know. Nobody does. Things could change. We can't assume they'll stay after their contract, and then what? Has the team planned for this, or has it done what you just did and assume it'll all be okay? Because that's what I keep seeing from the people who build these fantasy rosters with the half-dozen good young players we've got.

It takes more than magical thinking and thin skin to manage an NHL team. And I got news for you. The grading for NHL managing is done on a curve. And we're way behind the top of the bell.
 
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