Canucks Management and Ownership Thread v26.0

[RandV]

The Sedins have been perennially high-scoring forwards, and are very good players, but most years they have not been "Art Ross material" either. Not if you define that as being a threat to actually win the scoring title in a given year.

And anyway, I don't think anyone can expect Benning to come away with not one but two high end forward prospects - and that's not exclusively an indictment of his performance as GM so far, it's just really hard to replace consistently great players. Honestly it probably won't happen for quite some time, and if this team is going to be good it will have to be good in a different way. But most likely, they will just be a mess for some time after Henrik and Daniel hang them up.

The other option, a little less certain but if you're patient it can be viable, is to build up prospect depth and maintain a good amount of cap space so when another teams star player hits the trade market (1 or 2 get their every year) you're well positioned to pounce.

And this is something that Benning is playing horribly. He's wasting our prospect depth on borderline players like Marcus Granlund and hitting committing us to the cap ceiling with guys like Miller/Sutter/Dorsett/Sbisa.

We're not even in the position right now to trade for a Jacob Trouba or Tobias Reider, never mind a legit 1st line/top pairing skater.

 

[Ho Borvat]

Who cares how long they took to get there, look how long they have been in the league and as good as they are.

I have the poster you quoted on my ignore list - but I noticed he said it took them almost 10 years to become top-line players.

By my count, Henrik put up 75 points as a 25 year old....

 

[MS]

I have the poster you quoted on my ignore list - but I noticed he said it took them almost 10 years to become top-line players.

By my count, Henrik put up 75 points as a 25 year old....

Yeah, Henrik and Daniel broke out as top-line players at age 25 in their 5th NHL season.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Yeah, Henrik and Daniel broke out as top-line players at age 25 in their 5th NHL season.

And it may have been their age 24 season if that one didn't get canceled...

 

[iloveloov*]

75 points was the very low end of top line production in 2005 which was year 18 year old Crosby scored over 100 points.

If he would've said took them 10 years to be elite players then he'd be absolutely right.

Man if only they developed a couple years faster (and Bert didn't almost kill someone) we could have had had the WCE and Sedins as a 1-2 punch....

 

[Jyrki21]

Sedins are done. They are not Art Ross guys and only got theirs because Crosby was injured.

As you know, guys, at the Oscars, the best actor runner-up is a terrible actor standing in the way of bigger and better things for his/her agency.

I do agree they're standing in the way of a full-on rebuild, but this is because they're really good.

 

[FroshaugFan2]

75 points was average first line production in 05-06. Henrik was 16th in scoring among centres and Daniel was 12th among left wings. And they were playing 2nd line minutes and the 2nd PP.

 

[thepoeticgoblin]

Some people just don't appreciate what they have until it's gone.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Reminder, all:

Wishing injury/illness on anyone (players, members, etc.) will be regarded as trolling/offensive in most cases.

 

[iloveloov*]

75 points was average first line production in 05-06. Henrik was 16th in scoring among centres and Daniel was 12th among left wings. And they were playing 2nd line minutes and the 2nd PP.

1. 75 points can only be interpreted as average first line production if you artificially impose a linear trend from 1st to 30th in points. If you plot the data on a graph you'll see that the Sedins' production was clearly in bottom cluster of the top 30 (though they were admittedly at the top of that cluster). That's also making the assumption that there are 30 first line centers in the league at any given time.

2. Their Pts per game was actually 20-21st in the league respectively. For a real example of average first line production see Markus Naslund's 05-06 point totals.

3. 2nd line minutes but only 2 fewer shifts per game than when they were at their peak. They were also playing against secondary defensive pairings and PK units.

4. They were also averaging significantly (20-30%+) more PP minutes in 2005 than they have since 2010. Remember when over half the games would be powerplays when obstruction suddenly became illegal?

5. Wow I just realized that the 2005-2006 was over 10 years ago, now I feel super old.

6. Disclaimer: I love Daniel and Henrik with all of my heart.

 

[CanaFan]

1. 75 points can only be interpreted as average first line production if you artificially impose a linear trend from 1st to 30th in points. If you plot the data on a graph you'll see that the Sedins' production was clearly in bottom cluster of the top 30 (though they were admittedly at the top of that cluster). That's also making the assumption that there are 30 first line centers in the league at any given time.

2. Their Pts per game was actually 20-21st in the league respectively. For a real example of average first line production see Markus Naslund's 05-06 point totals.

3. 2nd line minutes but only 2 fewer shifts per game than when they were at their peak. They were also playing against secondary defensive pairings and PK units.

4. They were also averaging significantly (20-30%+) more PP minutes in 2005 than they have since 2010. Remember when over half the games would be powerplays when obstruction suddenly became illegal?

5. Wow I just realized that the 2005-2006 was over 10 years ago, now I feel super old.

6. Disclaimer: I love Daniel and Henrik with all of my heart.

That would be a fairly robust method of defining a "1st line centre", akin to using percentiles to create a relative definition of "quality".

The other option is to set an arbitrary value on production and use that to define a "first liner". You can do it but it may not mean the same thing to the person you're talking with.

 

[RobertKron]

1. 75 points can only be interpreted as average first line production if you artificially impose a linear trend from 1st to 30th in points. If you plot the data on a graph you'll see that the Sedins' production was clearly in bottom cluster of the top 30 (though they were admittedly at the top of that cluster). That's also making the assumption that there are 30 first line centers in the league at any given time.

2. Their Pts per game was actually 20-21st in the league respectively. For a real example of average first line production see Markus Naslund's 05-06 point totals.

3. 2nd line minutes but only 2 fewer shifts per game than when they were at their peak. They were also playing against secondary defensive pairings and PK units.

4. They were also averaging significantly (20-30%+) more PP minutes in 2005 than they have since 2010. Remember when over half the games would be powerplays when obstruction suddenly became illegal?

5. Wow I just realized that the 2005-2006 was over 10 years ago, now I feel super old.

6. Disclaimer: I love Daniel and Henrik with all of my heart.

Is this a joke? Naslund put up four more points than Henrik.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Is this a joke? Naslund put up four more points than Henrik.

So much wrong in one post.

 

[ATypicalCanadian]

 

[polarbearcub]

Always felt this trade was gonna haunt is.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

But we needed to fill the age gap

 

[iloveloov*]

Oh man we sure love to revise history around here.

If the Sedins were average 1st liners in 05 then why did they sign contracts in line with average 2nd line compensation? If you went back to 2005 and asked people if the Sedins were average first liners you'd be laughed out of the room.

That would be a fairly robust method of defining a "1st line centre", akin to using percentiles to create a relative definition of "quality".

The other option is to set an arbitrary value on production and use that to define a "first liner". You can do it but it may not mean the same thing to the person you're talking with.

It's not robust at all, it's the most arbitrary definition you could use.

By that "robust" definition a center who ranks 29th in scoring is a first liner but the 31st ranked center is considered a 2nd line center when the difference between them is basically nonexistent.

Is this a joke? Naslund put up four more points than Henrik.

2005-2006 Regular Season Points per game ranking among forwards:

42. Markus Naslund
53. Henrik Sedin
63. Daniel Sedin

So much wrong in one post.

Completely worthless.

 

[Hit the post]

Oh man we sure love to revise history around here.

If the Sedins were average 1st liners in 05 then why did they sign contracts in line with average 2nd line compensation?

Bridge contract (course I'm going by memory, so my recollection might be off)

 

[racerjoe]

Bridge contract (course I'm going by memory, so my recollection might be off)

And a good GM that understands how to work the cap, with RFA years. Vs a GM that hands out money like candy on Halloween.

 

[RandV]

Bridge contract (course I'm going by memory, so my recollection might be off)

Yes a bridge contract more or less, though not the official post-ELC type bridge contract you see today. This was their 3rd contract, but keep in mind they had 1 good season after 4 years of being 30-40 point players, it was 2006 so the cap was still only $45 million, and we still had Naslund, Morrison, and Bertuzzi/Luongo still on the books making the 1st line salaries - Naslund making about $6M at the time.

 

[valkynax]

Always felt this trade was gonna haunt is.

Trades that will haunt us are too numerous to recount. Forsling, Kassian, Shinkaruk just to name a few.

Soon enough the team will be so haunted each player will be required to carry a flask of holy water with them to every game.

I do hope Shinkaruk will tear this team into pieces though.

 

[I in the Eye]

Trades that will haunt us are too numerous to recount. Forsling, Kassian, Shinkaruk just to name a few.

Soon enough the team will be so haunted each player will be required to carry a flask of holy water with them to every game.

I do hope Shinkaruk will tear this team into pieces though.

For me it's Kassian... I love the guy. I asked for an Edmonton jersey with Kassian's name on it for my birthday, and I hate the Oilers with a deep passion. But I'm a die hard canucks fan... and many of my favourite Canuck players I've followed for years now suddenly
belong on different teams.

 

[CanaFan]

It's not robust at all, it's the most arbitrary definition you could use.

By that "robust" definition a center who ranks 29th in scoring is a first liner but the 31st ranked center is considered a 2nd line center when the difference between them is basically nonexistent.

A cut-off will always exist somewhere. The robustness comes in how you set that cut-off. Do you peg it to actual NHL production or to some random number that sounds good in your head.

The fact that you consider Naslund's 79 points to be "first line production" and Henrik's 75 points to not be - a gap of 4 points FFS - speaks to the arbitrariness of your system. There's no consistency or objective standard, just what "feels right" which makes it pretty much useless in general conversation.

 

[iloveloov*]

A cut-off will always exist somewhere. The robustness comes in how you set that cut-off. Do you peg it to actual NHL production or to some random number that sounds good in your head.

The fact that you consider Naslund's 79 points to be "first line production" and Henrik's 75 points to not be - a gap of 4 points FFS - speaks to the arbitrariness of your system. There's no consistency or objective standard, just what "feels right" which makes it pretty much useless in general conversation.

I never said that I said the Sedins put up below average first line production.

If you're all going to foam at the mouth and jump all over every post I make because I don't blindly hate or throw juvenile insults at management every day at least read them.

I said Naslund's production was average for 1st liners because he was PPG. Henrik had a 0.9 ppg and Daniel had a 0.8 ppg. Go look at the data yourself and tell me they didn't cluster with the lowest tier of top line production.

 

[PM]

For me it's Kassian... I love the guy. I asked for an Edmonton jersey with Kassian's name on it for my birthday, and I hate the Oilers with a deep passion. But I'm a die hard canucks fan... and many of my favourite Canuck players I've followed for years now suddenly
belong on different teams.

Yeah that one still hurts. He was my favourite Canuck when he was here. The fact that we got one of my least favourite Canucks in recent years in return is salt in the wounds. And we threw in a pick just because. Getting rid of him and Shinkaruk for two fourth liners has caused me to not get attached to young players on this team anymore. I basically stopped watching the Comets entirely after the Shinkaruk trade and I was probably one of the more active AHL viewers here outside of the people who live in Utica.