Canada only dominates with centers these days ?

[Bouboumaster]

Last time goaltending was supposed to be an issue was in 2014, and this is the year that Carey Price decided it was time to become a demi-god

Maybe Carter Hart or someone else will rise their game in time when the need comes

 

[Nucks2001]

All-American NHL BoG couldn’t be happier.

Top-quality Canadian prospects slow-cooked as middle 6ers (e.g., Guenther, Zellweger, Clarke and Wright in the AHL) while American prospects have limitless opportunities served on silver platters (e.g., Cooley instant PP1, L. Hughes playing over high-Norris finishing Hamilton on PP1, Brink inexplicably playing L1 over Konecny and Foerster). Canadians possibly ready to take the next step in the NHL locked in purgatory (e.g., Tortorella scratching Johnson and locking him into third line usage, McTavish immediately given second line scraps and knocked off PP1 by Carlsson). Lafreniere handed a pathway to inevitable bustdom by the Rags and Bedard stepping into the worst conceivable situation in O6 Chicago.

This thread is only a conversation because outside of Makar, zero Canadians drafted since 2015 have done anything remarkable even though we basically represent 50% of first round picks in that time. Some of those are due to unbelievably bad injury luck (e.g., Patrick, Glass, Vilardi, Dach, Perfetti), some of those are due to being trapped behind other young talent (e.g., Byram behind Makar, Cozens behind Thompson, Power behind Dahlin).

At this point the decline is real, whether it’s a matter of bad luck or something more. It should not be possible for a country representing 40% of drafted players to have almost zero prospects really emerge as stars over 8 years. We probably win only 55% of the time to the Americans in a best-of-7 today and that number will only go down over the next handful of years as this colossal failure of our young guns exerts itself. Long-term there’s probably no reason to doubt that we’ll eventually re-establish ourselves as we look to continue dominating draft day (2024 could be another year of 16+ Canadian first rounders), but the decline is only intensifying currently and it’s pretty sad to look at the state of the league.

Lol what a joke. It’s not like Canada hasn’t produced anything since the 2015 draft onwards: McDavid, Barzal, Marner, Makar, Thomas, Suzuki, Kyrou, Cozens, Mercer, McTavish, Byram, Bedard, Power. The Americans simply had better classes those years that’s why your perception is skewed. Don’t kid yourself that Canada DIDN’T produce elite levels of talent. If Laf, Patrick and Byfield actually panned out, we wouldn’t be having this conversation of “Canada’s sudden decline to garbage.” Just makes you think how OP Canada is in that they can go through half a decade of lacklustre drafting and injuries to prospects and STILL be considered a Co-Favourite with the Americans.

 

[Dominance]

Lol what a joke. It’s not like Canada hasn’t produced anything since the 2015 draft onwards: McDavid, Barzal, Marner, Makar, Thomas, Suzuki, Kyrou, Cozens, Mercer, McTavish, Byram, Bedard, Power. The Americans simply had better classes those years that’s why your perception is skewed. Don’t kid yourself that Canada DIDN’T produce elite levels of talent. If Laf, Patrick and Byfield actually panned out, we wouldn’t be having this conversation of “Canada’s sudden decline to garbage.” Just makes you think how OP Canada is in that they can go through half a decade of lacklustre drafting and injuries to prospects and STILL be considered a Co-Favourite with the Americans.

Does “since” have a different definition where you grew up? Look at that sad list of players post-2015. Makar is the only star. There’s never been such a dry run of 4-5 years in the history of the game, never mind eight.

We’ve had 105 first rounders and 30 top-10 picks since 2015 to the Americans’ 53 first rounders and 17 top-10 picks, and had the better of them in juniors play as well so it’s not like teams were just picking foolishly, and Makar is the only star to face down Matthews, the Tkachuk bros, McAvoy, Fox, Thompson, Robertson, and the Hughes bros. It’s a catastrophe that should not logically be remotely possible.

 

[jj cale]

Does “since” have a different definition where you grew up? Look at that sad list of players post-2015. Makar is the only star. There’s never been such a dry run of 4-5 years in the history of the game, never mind eight.

We’ve had 105 first rounders and 30 top-10 picks since 2015 to the Americans’ 53 first rounders and 17 top-10 picks, and had the better of them in juniors play as well so it’s not like teams were just picking foolishly, and Makar is the only star to face down Matthews, the Tkachuk bros, McAvoy, Fox, Thompson, Robertson, and the Hughes bros. It’s a catastrophe that should not logically be remotely possible.

The state of the game here is a major cause of concern.

 

[Drury_Sakic]

Toews, Makar, Pietrangelo, Morrissey, Hamilton, Doughty, Montour, Theodore to name some, but not all of the best Canadian D men to me means that answer is no.

I think in general the rest of the world has stepped its game up in developing players and that is what is at play when these types of questions get asked. The floor has risen. Canada maybe has slipped a bit, but not drastically.

I would also argue that being stacked at center for the most part means you are stacked at wing as well. As usually, but not always, a great center can be a great winger.

Goaltending is perhaps a bit lite. But Russia makes every country look weak in net.

For those who think there is a lack of up coming talent and that those names on D are all existing talent, you are not wrong. But, I would argue that the covid shutdowns are going to result in the past 2-4 years worth of talent from Canada taking a bit more time to develop and present their best. Other countries, for better or worse, had less restrictions. I think this is going to result in young players from Canada taking a bit longer to progress from those years compared to players from other countries. I will be curious to see what the late bloomers list looks like 2-4 more years down the road from Canada.

 

[nowhereman]

Like others have said, hockey is declining in Canada. In large part, it's Hockey Canada's failure to grow the game. Plenty of kids from immigrant families love to watch hockey, collect cards, play street hockey or even join ball hockey leagues. Thing is, most of their parents can't afford to put there kids in ice hockey and so you have the typical white privileged kids taking up all of the ice time at the rinks, getting the best gear, attending camps and such. Hockey Canada pushes these things under the rug like they always have and fail to make the game more affordable or market it appropriately. It wasn't so much of a problem in the past as the inflation in Canada wasn't as bad, other countries still lagged behind Canada in terms of player development and the pool of players to choose from was larger. Now, European countries have surpassed Canada in some areas of development such as goaltending. Additionally, USA hockey has done a great job of implementing cost-effective programs across the country to increase player enrolment.

People of South Korean, Chinese and South Asian decent are amongst the highest earners in Canada, while whites are middle of the road and amongst the lowest in university education. It's a bit misguided to blame it on the "white privileged kids" being the only ones who can afford it. The changing demographics of Canada have certainly played a part, though, and hockey is taking a backseat to sports like soccer. Most of my family (on my wife's side) are first generation immigrants and they really have no interest in hockey at all, since they didn't grow up with it.

And Canada's absolutely absurd cost of living doesn't help whatsoever, as the middle class can no longer shell out the thousands it takes to play at a high level. In today's Canadian economy, guys like Gordie Howe, Theo Fleury, or Ryan Nugent-Hopkins probably wouldn't be able to play the game. RNH actually had to take a year off hockey because his parents were in such a difficult financial situation.

But, regardless of these factors, Canada will continue to be one of the strongest hockey nations in the world. But the rest of the world is closing the gap and that's not a bad thing.

 

[Nucks2001]

People of South Korean, Chinese and South Asian decent are amongst the highest earners in Canada, while whites are middle of the road and amongst the lowest in university education. It's a bit misguided to blame it on the "white privileged kids" being the only ones who can afford it. The changing demographics of Canada have certainly played a part, though, and hockey is taking a backseat to sports like soccer. Most of my family (on my wife's side) are first generation immigrants and they really have no interest in hockey at all, since they didn't grow up with it.

And Canada's absolutely absurd cost of living doesn't help whatsoever, as the middle class can no longer shell out the thousands it takes to play at a high level. In today's Canadian economy, guys like Gordie Howe, Theo Fleury, or Ryan Nugent-Hopkins probably wouldn't be able to play the game. RNH actually had to take a year off hockey because his parents were in such a difficult financial situation.

But, regardless of these factors, Canada will continue to be one of the strongest hockey nations in the world. But the rest of the world is closing the gap and that's not a bad thing.

I think you’re confusing income with opportunity and parenting. Firstly, first-gen immigrants don’t make more than the average Canadian. Not sure where you got that from. Are they earning more than they used to, yes! But you also have to look at the opportunity cost that comes with that. A lot of these immigrants are saving up and working insane hours to buy houses and flip them. Hockey, is a second concern for them. Going back to the ridiculous inflation, that gets tied in here as well. The white population generally doesn’t have to worry about mortgages because of the inheritance passed down. This is why the immigrant parents put them in cheaper sports such as soccer and basketball. One thing that immigrants do is cheap out in order to save. Hockey is not a sport you can cheap out on to get good. On the other hand, the white patents are able to spend more time with kids and not worry about money AS MUCH, plus they know the game of hockey and encourage their kids. That is more valuable than money. This equals opportunity.

Hockey is still popular amongst immigrant kids, but it’s the cost and Hockey Canada’s lack of due diligence to market the game to immigrant parents and markets appropriately. You go to Vancouver, Surrey, Brampton, or Toronto and I’m sure that if you asked an immigrant kid would you rather want to win the Stanley Cup or NBA championship it would still be even. All these kids grow up watching hockey, playing street hockey and some even ice hockey, and it isn’t until middle school where they realize that they’ll probably never get to the elite level because at that age, hockey is extremely hard to break into and a huge investment is required to get to the next level. That’s why you see a decline in appeal for the sport, it’s not because the interest isn’t there, it’s because the Canadian industry isn’t capitalizing on it.

 

[Czechboy]

I'll just chime in on the last 2 comments.

In my lifetime you would've never convinced me that Canada would be better at tennis and soccer than the Czechs. It happened.

If we ever had a best on best, Canada would be 20 white guys with a white staff.

At the World Cup of Soccer... Canada was as diverse as it could possibly be. Black all star players, Croatian heritage goalies etc. An immigrant majority team.

At the Davis Cup... Canada fielded teams of Russian, Czech, former Yugoslavian players and the mis that is Felix Auger.

At the Fed Cup.. Canada again fielded a very immigrant and mixed looking team.

3 of those teams represent what Canada looks like. The hockey team does not. Go to any public school and look at the class. Then go to the hockey rink. It doesn't line up at all. You will see it at tennis, volleyball and soccer though!

FTR.. I don't think Canada is slipping in hockey at all. I do think they are lousy at getting immigrants and non white people though.

 

[jj cale]

I'll just chime in on the last 2 comments.

In my lifetime you would've never convinced me that Canada would be better at tennis and soccer than the Czechs. It happened.

If we ever had a best on best, Canada would be 20 white guys with a white staff.

At the World Cup of Soccer... Canada was as diverse as it could possibly be. Black all star players, Croatian heritage goalies etc. An immigrant majority team.

At the Davis Cup... Canada fielded teams of Russian, Czech, former Yugoslavian players and the mis that is Felix Auger.

At the Fed Cup.. Canada again fielded a very immigrant and mixed looking team.

3 of those teams represent what Canada looks like. The hockey team does not. Go to any public school and look at the class. Then go to the hockey rink. It doesn't line up at all. You will see it at tennis, volleyball and soccer though!

FTR.. I don't think Canada is slipping in hockey at all. I do think they are lousy at getting immigrants and non white people though.

We aren't alone in that boat then because the U.S, Finland and Sweden are pretty heavy immigrant nations too and their hockey teams are pretty much lilly white. The fact is the kids of immigrants just aren't all that interested in hockey for a variety of reasons, none of which have to do with the failure of Canada or anyone else sucking at getting them involved.

 

[sdf]

I'll just chime in on the last 2 comments.

In my lifetime you would've never convinced me that Canada would be better at tennis and soccer than the Czechs. It happened.

If we ever had a best on best, Canada would be 20 white guys with a white staff.

At the World Cup of Soccer... Canada was as diverse as it could possibly be. Black all star players, Croatian heritage goalies etc. An immigrant majority team.

At the Davis Cup... Canada fielded teams of Russian, Czech, former Yugoslavian players and the mis that is Felix Auger.

At the Fed Cup.. Canada again fielded a very immigrant and mixed looking team.

3 of those teams represent what Canada looks like. The hockey team does not. Go to any public school and look at the class. Then go to the hockey rink. It doesn't line up at all. You will see it at tennis, volleyball and soccer though!

FTR.. I don't think Canada is slipping in hockey at all. I do think they are lousy at getting immigrants and non white people though.

If canada really looks like that, then it is f***ing disaster

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

I'll just chime in on the last 2 comments.

In my lifetime you would've never convinced me that Canada would be better at tennis and soccer than the Czechs. It happened.

If we ever had a best on best, Canada would be 20 white guys with a white staff.

At the World Cup of Soccer... Canada was as diverse as it could possibly be. Black all star players, Croatian heritage goalies etc. An immigrant majority team.

At the Davis Cup... Canada fielded teams of Russian, Czech, former Yugoslavian players and the mis that is Felix Auger.

At the Fed Cup.. Canada again fielded a very immigrant and mixed looking team.

3 of those teams represent what Canada looks like. The hockey team does not. Go to any public school and look at the class. Then go to the hockey rink. It doesn't line up at all. You will see it at tennis, volleyball and soccer though!

FTR.. I don't think Canada is slipping in hockey at all. I do think they are lousy at getting immigrants and non white people though.

The thing is immigrants and non white people LOVE hockey here (at least in Montreal) they just don't participate and they won't unless the cost of the game goes down

 

[Mathieukferland]

The thing is immigrants and non white people LOVE hockey here (at least in Montreal) they just don't participate and they won't unless the cost of the game goes down

Yeah you can chime in but I’m also from qc but minor hockey seems a lot more healthy and popular in the countryside (whatever en region directly translates to) and the vast amount of current talent from Québec seems to be produced outside of the island of Montréal

 

[Nucks2001]

We aren't alone in that boat then because the U.S, Finland and Sweden are pretty heavy immigrant nations too and their hockey teams are pretty much lilly white. The fact is the kids of immigrants just aren't all that interested in hockey for a variety of reasons, none of which have to do with the failure of Canada or anyone else sucking at getting them involved.

You’re looking at in the wrong way. The USA is “too big to fail” with a population nearly 10x the size. They only need to garner a minimal amount of interest from minority groups to have an elite pool to choose from or they don’t have to garner interest AT ALL from minorities.

Sweden is too small of a population in comparison to Canada, and has a minute immigrant and immigrant-born children population in comparison to North America. It does not nearly produce the same level or quantity of NHL talent as the States and Canada either.

Canada’s immigrant population MAKES UP 23% of the pop. THAT’S 9 MILLION people. Furthermore, it’s estimated that 39-49% of Canadian-born children (under-15) will hail from immigrant and ethnic families by 2035. Canada’s advantage over the USA was that its overall population was much more interested in hockey and they developed these players the right way. Hockey Canada has failed at maintaining this interest and helping to regulate the costs of hockey through its programs and connections with hockey manufacturers. If Canada doesn’t adapt, it will still be a strong hockey nation, but it will have to share its throne with the USA

 

[jj cale]

You’re looking at in the wrong way. The USA is “too big to fail” with a population nearly 10x the size. They only need to garner a minimal amount of interest from minority groups to have an elite pool to choose from or they don’t have to garner interest AT ALL from minorities.

Sweden is too small of a population in comparison to Canada, and has a minute immigrant and immigrant-born children population in comparison to North America. It does not nearly produce the same level or quantity of NHL talent as the States and Canada either.

Canada’s immigrant population MAKES UP 23% of the pop. THAT’S 9 MILLION people. Furthermore, it’s estimated that 39-49% of Canadian-born children (under-15) will hail from immigrant and ethnic families by 2035. Canada’s advantage over the USA was that its overall population was much more interested in hockey and they developed these players the right way. Hockey Canada has failed at maintaining this interest and helping to regulate the costs of hockey through its programs and connections with hockey manufacturers. If Canada doesn’t adapt, it will still be a strong hockey nation, but it will have to share its throne with the USA

I'll give you these points for sure.

On other points I will stand by what I say, the level of interest among our immigrant populations is in a lot of ways just down to them and their cultural and geographic backgrounds. Most of these new immigrants that come in great numbers just have no connection to hockey or practically any winter sport because well......................they aren't from winter countries. It's not just hockey it's skiing and figure skating , etc etc, they don't come from areas where those are viable sports and thus have no emotional connection to them and don't have the same level of interest in getting involved, It's not like their dads were die hard Montreal Canadiens fans and they grew up in a hockey household in a hockey loving culture. That's a tough thing to overcome, In the past with immigration they came from mostly European countries so you didn't have that barrier with them to that degree of immigrants that arrive here today and that's a lot to overcome. Like I said you don't see many kids of colour on any serious hockey playing countries teams. While say Sweden and Finland don't have the immigration numbers Canada has it still has a healthy amount of them...................bu by and large they play other sports, hockey just isn't as appealing to them. Summit series Canada cup 87, rocket Richard, Wayne Gretzky John Slaneys goal, freezing your balls off on a lake all day playing shinny hockey...............those things mean nothing to them. They neither grew up with it nor lived it.

Theres only so much you can do really, Hockey simply can't compete with sports like basketball and football etc with this population group. I do agree with you that Hockey Canada can ( or should I say must) do a better job at attracting them, tackling some of the issues you mentioned would be a great start. Having said that it won't solve everything.


It's a different Canada today, and the decreasing popularity of Hockey makes that crystal clear. Times change.

 

[WayTooCold]

Canada was 2nd in the medal table in the 2023 world track and field. With 4 gold medals. I was surprised. USA got 12 golds. Finland only got 1 bronze and ended up 39th. Which is kinda what I expected.

I think international hockey has never been popular in Finland. People really only care about SM-liiga.
Some stupid "Lions" team. Finland never had lions to begin with. Nobody really cares.
International team competition is just boring w/ 4 teams competing for gold medals.

We have Germany appearing in Olympic and WC finals regularly. Speaks volumes of the "Big 6" don't care enough. They have full bellies. Only Canada wants to win more golds regularly.

Czechia lost their killer instinct after they got their Olympic gold medals and a hat trick of World Championships. Hungry dog runs faster.

 

[Czechboy]

Canada was 2nd in the medal table in the 2023 world track and field. With 4 gold medals. I was surprised. USA got 12 golds. Finland only got 1 bronze and ended up 39th. Which is kinda what I expected.

I think international hockey has never been popular in Finland. People really only care about SM-liiga.
Some stupid "Lions" team. Finland never had lions to begin with. Nobody really cares.
International team competition is just boring w/ 4 teams competing for gold medals.

We have Germany appearing in Olympic and WC finals regularly. Speaks volumes of the "Big 6" don't care enough. They have full bellies. Only Canada wants to win more golds regularly.

Czechia lost their killer instinct after they got their Olympic gold medals and a hat trick of World Championships. Hungry dog runs faster.

Or communism left and we had to rebuild our entire sporting program.

 

[HairyKneel]

I watch him 5/6 times a year. I think he dearly misses the stabilizing presence of a Christopher Tanev type partner

You should try opening your eyes while you watch

 

[HairyKneel]

Hockey is dying in Canada.

LOL!!!!

We are clearly still the best nation. Shouldn’t change for at least another decade if ever. The US won ONE best on best tourney 27 years ago on high stick goal by a CANADIAN kid who grew up in North Van. ONE tourney.

 

[Mathieukferland]

You should try opening your eyes while you watch

I’ll give you this I posted this comment before the season started and has been well in zone defensive to start the season

 

[WarriorofTime]

LOL!!!!

We are clearly still the best nation. Shouldn’t change for at least another decade if ever. The US won ONE best on best tourney 27 years ago on high stick goal by a CANADIAN kid who grew up in North Van. ONE tourney.

Thanks for the history lesson, but if you care to join us in the present, there hasn’t been a “best on best” for quite some time now, so not sure about the relevance of that stuff today.

Any “best on best” in the present is merely speculative. Just looking at hypothetical rosters, I think USA could hold their own, I don’t know if they’d beat Canada in a best of seven but I doubt they’d get embarrassed and I firmly believe the gap between the two has never been smaller, making your history lesson basically irrelevant.

 

[HairyKneel]

Thanks for the history lesson, but if you care to join us in the present, there hasn’t been a “best on best” for quite some time now, so not sure about the relevance of that stuff today.

Any “best on best” in the present is merely speculative. Just looking at hypothetical rosters, I think USA could hold their own, I don’t know if they’d beat Canada in a best of seven but I doubt they’d get embarrassed and I firmly believe the gap between the two has never been smaller, making your history lesson basically irrelevant.

I was responding to some dude who said hockey is dying in Canada. know the Americans are closing the gap.

 

[Albatros]

14 players with more than one game played above 1.30 ppg at the moment, including 6 Americans, 3 Swedes, 2 Finns, 1 German, Czech, and Russian, 0 Canadians.

 

[Gold Standard]

The keywords in the thread title are Canada and dominates.

I suspect the US will be our only real challenger for the next 20 years.

A Canada USA 8-game summit series border clash would be epic.

 

[Mitch nylander]

Russia vs Canada Wingers is an interesting argument

Canada Top 10 Wingers (in no order): Mitchell Marner, Mark Stone, Brad Marchand, Claude Giroux, Jonathan Huberdeau, Jonathan Marchessault, Jared McCann, Zach Hyman, Jamie Benn, Tyler Toffoli..... | Now add in a few of the following centers who could play the wing on Canada (Mackinnon, Stamkos, Scheifele, Bedard, Barzal)

Russia Top 10 Wingers (in no order): Nikita Kucherov, Artemi Panarin, Kirill Kaprizov, Alex Ovechkin, Vladimir Tarasenko, Pavel Buchnevich, Andrei Svechnikov, Valeri Nichushkin, Matvei Michkov, Ilya Mikheyev/Nikolai Goldobin/Kirill Marchenko/Dmitry Voronkov

 

[WTFMAN99]

I guess if I had to pick an Olympic goaltender for Canada this year, in 2023 it would be from Binnington, Hart, Hill or even Logan Thompson.

I know Thompson lacks big game experience but great goalie at every level.