Proposal: Calgary-Florida

[Laus723]

Lol sorry for other Flames fans being salty. We're literally a lottery team and he's saying 'idk how you're gonna win in the playoffs with an injured C'. Just embarrassing for us.

meh, happens. We all get salty, I’m kinda known for it lol. Definitely hope Florida has some trades up their sleeves, we’re going to need a couple guy imo, just not sure a multi-year contract is the way to go. Tbh, I thought the ask for him was pretty spot on. Just would need salary to go back should it happen.

 

[blankall]

Ohhhh you're right actually I just talked to Brad and he said we aren't going to rebuild. Oh wait actually none of us did because we're literally 1 year away from Gaudreau walking and our captain retiring and then having to fully rebuild lol. Who knows what Brad's plan is? All i Know for sure is that trading Monahan for a haul of futures does not signify 'burn the house down rebuild', it signifies acknowledging he isn't a fit with this core and that our true core (Lindy, Chucky, Hanifin, Rasmus/Vali, Mang/Dube) needs better support for when we actually are competitive in 2-3 years. People being like 'Monahan will be moved, but for a replacement C who is already productive', I'd love to hear what player you have in mind? Max Domi? Lol. Duchene? Couture? Danault? lol. We're better off taking chances on great blue-chip prospects that are RH and have clear top-6 potential and are on their ELC's, plus picks and prospects and cap space to replace Monahan in the summer imo.

If the Flames begin dumping their players, sure a 1st plus a big return is a great idea. The problem is that dumping Monahan and Gaudreau for pure futures leaves the Flames with an even more mediocre team that is neither tanking nor competing. The team has a fully fleshed out defensive core, goalie, and solid depth scoring. The problem is that group is all at the age where they are ready to compete now, and will be less competitive in 3 years.

So if you are going full rebuild, you also have to move Markstrom, Giordano, Lindholm, Backlund, Tanev, etc...basically everyone but Tkachuk and a few of the d-men.

Basically, if Monahan and Gaudreau are being moved, it makes way more sense to get back assets that will contribute sooner. Late 1sts and prospects that can't crack NHL rosters are not ideal.

 

[CraigsList]

Well that's why I targeted Denisenko and not Lundell because that would just be ridiculous of Florida lol.

Right, my bad. I forgot you offered Denisenko.

Whether we like it or not, the Flames are going to be doing “change of scenery”, retooling trades. We won’t be rebuilding anytime soon.

 

[Flameshomer]

Lol sorry for other Flames fans being salty. We're literally a lottery team and he's saying 'idk how you're gonna win in the playoffs with an injured C'. Just embarrassing for us.

Embarassing.

Monahan has outscored everyone in his draft year, including the other centre on this team. Liiga stats are meaningless in the NHL- look no further than our own Valimaki (who was better than Lundell in Liiga this year) as an example.

One prospect is not worth a perenial 30 goal scorer. That is what is embarrassing. Also your name sake is embarrassing as f.

 

[Laus723]

Right, my bad. I forgot you offered Denisenko.

Whether we like it or not, the Flames are going to be doing “change of scenery”, retooling trades. We won’t be rebuilding anytime soon.

looks like Flames management is going to see who responds to Sutter and how that goes before making any major decisions with their players. Probably smart, especially considering the crazy season and what everyone’s dealing with.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Right, my bad. I forgot you offered Denisenko.

Whether we like it or not, the Flames are going to be doing “change of scenery”, retooling trades. We won’t be rebuilding anytime soon.

Fair, I definitely see that being the most likely outcome based on management and ownership but I still think these type of deals should be considered. Especially if we're high on a guy like Denisenko who imo has tons of upside. But i agree pretty unlikely in reality

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Embarassing.

Monahan has outscored everyone in his draft year, including the other centre on this team. Liiga stats are meaningless in the NHL- look no further than our own Valimaki (who was better than Lundell in Liiga this year) as an example.

One prospect is not worth a perenial 30 goal scorer. That is what is embarrassing. Also your name sake is embarrassing as f.

Lol my name-sake is embarrassing rn for sure. But ya perennial 30 goal scorer Monahan who is on pace for 15/82 games this year with ample PP time and with our elite top-line LW is not gonna be able to bring back the return people want. I'm all for a Monahan for Dumba or Monahan for Reinhart/Mantha swap but I can't see any of those teams giving up those guys for a slightly overpaid 2C who has been given ample opportunity and has struggled. If you isolate Monahan's 5v5 production over the past 2 years he produces at a middle-6 rate and this is all with Gaudreau for 98% of his ice time. Can't see Monahan bringing back more than 1st+good prospect, unless you wanna target a Couture or Duchene or similar more expensive C with higher upside

 

[Flameshomer]

Player A: Age: 26 on the trade block. Former top 10 pick. Whole career with one team to this point. 2 years at ~6 mil remaining on contract. Centre.

Games Goals Assists Points +/-
586 178 250 428 -60


Player B: Age: 26 on the trade block. Former top 10 pick. Whole career with one team to this point. 2 years at ~6 mil remaining on contract. Centre.
Games Goals Assists Points +/-
572 201 230 431 -30


Anyone want to guess what Player A was traded for?

 

[RasmusAndersson]

If the Flames begin dumping their players, sure a 1st plus a big return is a great idea. The problem is that dumping Monahan and Gaudreau for pure futures leaves the Flames with an even more mediocre team that is neither tanking nor competing. The team has a fully fleshed out defensive core, goalie, and solid depth scoring. The problem is that group is all at the age where they are ready to compete now, and will be less competitive in 3 years.

So if you are going full rebuild, you also have to move Markstrom, Giordano, Lindholm, Backlund, Tanev, etc...basically everyone but Tkachuk and a few of the d-men.

Basically, if Monahan and Gaudreau are being moved, it makes way more sense to get back assets that will contribute sooner. Late 1sts and prospects that can't crack NHL rosters are not ideal.

I honestly don't think that trading Monahan for this specific return will set us back any longer. Denisenko is close to NHL ready at age 20 on his ELC, is a right-shot RW who has played in the K and destroyed the WJC's twice. Add in the upgrade to our 3rd pair RD, the 4+ mil in cap savings, resulting in 7-8 mil this summer to pursue a Danault, Lowry or even Nuge, Schwartz, Hall, plus the additional 1st would make us at least similar next year, if not better just for the purpose of a change of scenery since Monahan is clearly not working out. And then you add in the fact that in 2 years Denisenko, the 1st, and whatever we do with the extra 5 mil in cap space... I definitely think this is not a move that signifies move every player and jump ship. I wouldn't trade Monahan for any 1st+prospect, I am specifically very high on Denisenko and I'm surprised more people aren't. Guy is 20 with experience in pro leagues, shoots right, and has high offensive ceiling. We need like 2/3 Denisenko's if we wanna reach that next level

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Player A: Age: 26 on the trade block. Former top 10 pick. Whole career with one team to this point. 2 years at ~6 mil remaining on contract. Centre.

Games Goals Assists Points +/-
586 178 250 428 -60


Player B: Age: 26 on the trade block. Former top 10 pick. Whole career with one team to this point. 2 years at ~6 mil remaining on contract. Centre.
Games Goals Assists Points +/-
572 201 230 431 -30


Anyone want to guess what Player A was traded for?

Love the career stats argument to show that Monahan is the best player in the draft class hey? Players never regress or anything, that would be insane. Jeff Carter or Max Domi or James Neal never had strong seasons and then dropped off due to lack of footspeed.

 

[Flameshomer]

Love the career stats argument to show that Monahan is the best player in the draft class hey? Players never regress or anything, that would be insane. Jeff Carter or Max Domi or James Neal never had strong seasons and then dropped off due to lack of footspeed.

Jeff Carter won 2 cups after allegedly losing foot speed. Monahan is not remotely comparable to the other two players so I find the comparison confusing.

I was referencing the Duchene Trade, funny that you brought him up. Duchene was worse statistically in every way than Monahan, was actively pouting for a trade, and had a worse contract relative to the cap at the time. He returned FAR more than you are suggesting Monahan is worth. Ottawa's 2017 1st( Shane Bowers) a 2018 1st, a 2018 2nd, a 2018 3rd, Sam Girard (2016 2nd round pick) and Vlad Kamenev (2014 2nd).

 

[Flameshomer]

So, based on the above, If we want to talk about Denisenko/Tippett+ this years 1st, 2nd, and 3rd + Borgstrom and a D prospect (maybe Michael benning?) Then we can talk.

 

[Laus723]

Jeff Carter won 2 cups after allegedly losing foot speed. Monahan is not remotely comparable to the other two players so I find the comparison confusing.

I was referencing the Duchene Trade, funny that you brought him up. Duchene was worse statistically in every way than Monahan, was actively pouting for a trade, and had a worse contract relative to the cap at the time. He returned FAR more than you are suggesting Monahan is worth. Ottawa's 2017 1st( Shane Bowers) a 2018 1st, a 2018 2nd, a 2018 3rd, Sam Girard (2016 2nd round pick) and Vlad Kamenev (2014 2nd).

lmao, and that’s universally seen as a horrendous trade by Ottawa.

 

[Flameshomer]

lmao, and that’s universally seen as a horrendous trade by Ottawa.

Doesn't change the price that's been set market wide for centres that produce at top line levels offensively (I changed the wording because of how many rubes will jump in and say he's not a 1C, but by any statistical category he's top 30 C in the last decade so whatever...)

You can go back further and are welcome to try and disprove me, but there's no way a centre of this caliber gets traded for so little. It would be unheard of in the history of the league. He's also cap controlled for 2 more seasons, extra value in these times.

 

[Laus723]

Doesn't change the price that's been set market wide for centres that produce at top line levels offensively (I changed the wording because of how many rubes will jump in and say he's not a 1C, but by any statistical category he's top 30 C in the last decade so whatever...)

You can go back further and are welcome to try and disprove me, but there's no way a centre of this caliber gets traded for so little. It would be unheard of in the history of the league. He's also cap controlled for 2 more seasons, extra value in these times.

the price wasn’t set by the Duchesne trade, that’s laughable. Go find some other examples. I’ve already stated why Florida likely wouldn’t trade for him, but if they did, you’re not getting him for all that. I’m not even much of a fan of Tippett or Borgstrom at the moment.

 

[Boondock]

the price wasn’t set by the Duchesne trade, that’s laughable. Go find some other examples. I’ve already stated why Florida likely wouldn’t trade for him, but if they did, you’re not getting him for all that. I’m not even much of a fan of Tippett or Borgstrom at the moment.

Honest question - How many Flames games have you watched? Are you making judgements based on stats and other peoples opinions or have you watched enough Flames hockey over the past couple years to actually make an evaluation?

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Jeff Carter won 2 cups after allegedly losing foot speed. Monahan is not remotely comparable to the other two players so I find the comparison confusing.

I was referencing the Duchene Trade, funny that you brought him up. Duchene was worse statistically in every way than Monahan, was actively pouting for a trade, and had a worse contract relative to the cap at the time. He returned FAR more than you are suggesting Monahan is worth. Ottawa's 2017 1st( Shane Bowers) a 2018 1st, a 2018 2nd, a 2018 3rd, Sam Girard (2016 2nd round pick) and Vlad Kamenev (2014 2nd).

That has got to be one of the biggest overpayments in recent history lol. Denisenko, 1st, Nutivaara is a solid offer.

 

[Boondock]

That has got to be one of the biggest overpayments in recent history lol. Denisenko, 1st, Nutivaara is a solid offer.

I like Denisenko, but that 1st is currently 30th overall so historically about a 50% chance of playing 100 NHL games and Nutivaara is a 3rd pairing depth dman that's overpaid with 1 season before UFA. Package seems light to me.

 

[Volica]

Florida and Calgary don't seem like great trade partners TBH.

That being said, Calgary likely won't give away Sean Monahan.
Yes, he's having his worst statistical year since since his Rookie season; he's also shooting 5% below his career average. A bounce back to average in the remaining games this year would have him right near his regular 25 goal mark (right now he's on pace for 19).

The cost would likely be a first, a conditional first and a decent prospect in all reality. 2 more years at 6 million for a top 6 centre that scores 25 a year... they just have value.

I have a feeling he'll be dealt in the offseason though, in a retool.

 

[Yepthatsme]

So then why would Florida? Lundell is also a top 6 C potential prospect, and he looks to be the heir to the 2C position to make a great Finnish 1-2 punch.

This is the most quintessential HF post I’ve seen. “No, my team won’t trade my C prospect for your low end 1C. That centre prospect has top 6 potential, he could even turn out as good as a low end 1C.” Best part was it wasn’t even a Florida fan who said it.

 

[Laus723]

Honest question - How many Flames games have you watched? Are you making judgements based on stats and other peoples opinions or have you watched enough Flames hockey over the past couple years to actually make an evaluation?

What does me watching Flames games have to do with how awful the Duchesne trade was and how that’s not the price for most guys in the league. I’ve watched a few since you’ve asked, but I also know Florida has to re-sign Barkov and Huberdeau n the next couple years and still has areas to improve. This isn’t the make it or break it year.

 

[Laus723]

This is the most quintessential HF post I’ve seen. “No, my team won’t trade my C prospect for your low end 1C. That centre prospect has top 6 potential, he could even turn out as good as a low end 1C.” Best part was it wasn’t even a Florida fan who said it.

except, prospects ARE valuable despite the quintessential HF “its a prospect not a proven NHLer” anytime something like this is brought up. It’s a flat cap world, Florida has guys to re-sign, and it probably doesn’t make sense to take on Monahan’s contract and years when there are potential options, and Zito can find a guy in FA possibly who, while maybe not being as good as Monahan, won’t cost Lundell, etc.

 

[Fig]

Ohhhh you're right actually I just talked to Brad and he said we aren't going to rebuild. Oh wait actually none of us did because we're literally 1 year away from Gaudreau walking and our captain retiring and then having to fully rebuild lol. Who knows what Brad's plan is? All i Know for sure is that trading Monahan for a haul of futures does not signify 'burn the house down rebuild', it signifies acknowledging he isn't a fit with this core and that our true core (Lindy, Chucky, Hanifin, Rasmus/Vali, Mang/Dube) needs better support for when we actually are competitive in 2-3 years. People being like 'Monahan will be moved, but for a replacement C who is already productive', I'd love to hear what player you have in mind? Max Domi? Lol. Duchene? Couture? Danault? lol. We're better off taking chances on great blue-chip prospects that are RH and have clear top-6 potential and are on their ELC's, plus picks and prospects and cap space to replace Monahan in the summer imo.

The difference between a retool and rebuild is development of players. Retool to acquire already developed players who only need to settle in and aim for a short turnaround towards contention. What you have proposed in the OP is a rebuild which is at least several seasons away as it involves acquiring players who require development. Again, I have no issues with the concepts you propose, but your trade ideas are always seemingly way off or are in contradiction to the statement you make as to the the reasoning for your trade. Your ideas are fine, but your trade proposals are again horrific and illogical.

Your quoted comment is completely incorrect. No Flames fans needs to talk to Brad directly to know a rebuild is not in the cards right now. Sutter and Treliving have both mentioned playoff mandates for 2021 and onwards. Your initial wording of retool was right. Your trade proposal is not a retool type trade proposal. Futhermore, one of the greatest issues that the Flames have is that they have enough star talent on good contracts, but need super star/top tier talent. We need to do quantity for quality trades, not the other way around as you have proposed.

The selling low of Calgary assets to Florida doesn't make much sense at the moment. While I get that you're trying to do a one step back for two steps forward next year, your trade isn't that type of trade. I get that you also targeted Florida because they need a centre. However, I think Florida needs a rental, not a guy with term. I think the two aren't good trading partners, at least not based on the current basis as outlined in your OP.

 

[Traptor]

except, prospects ARE valuable despite the quintessential HF “its a prospect not a proven NHLer” anytime something like this is brought up. It’s a flat cap world, Florida has guys to re-sign, and it probably doesn’t make sense to take on Monahan’s contract and years when there are potential options, and Zito can find a guy in FA possibly who, while maybe not being as good as Monahan, won’t cost Lundell, etc.

You're exactly right that it is a flap cap world and talking about cap space. Florida has a window right now with Huberdeau and Barkovs contracts. Monahan's contract fits that window perfectly. You're not going to find a center even close to averaging 28g /yr over their career for cheaper trade or in UFA. 6,375,000 is a very easy contract to swallow for that player especially considering that Calgary would probably take a Connolly or something back. With the amount that Barkov and Huberdeau are going to cost in a couple of years, you go for it now. Or you can play the long mediocracy game. And trust me, flames fans know from experience, those highly touted center prospects do not always turn out.

 

[Yepthatsme]

except, prospects ARE valuable despite the quintessential HF “its a prospect not a proven NHLer” anytime something like this is brought up. It’s a flat cap world, Florida has guys to re-sign, and it probably doesn’t make sense to take on Monahan’s contract and years when there are potential options, and Zito can find a guy in FA possibly who, while maybe not being as good as Monahan, won’t cost Lundell, etc.

That is true prospects do have value especially in cap world. So do top centers who immediately improve a contender instead of waiting 2-7 years for your prospect to maybe help you out and potentially get to that level.

“I don’t want your top player because we would have to pay him to be a top player. Let’s get a middling player instead, we would only have to pay him like a middling player so he’s more valuable” is becoming the new mystery box on HF.