Post-Game Talk: Caesers

[Kodiak]

You can call this game boring, but this type of win was much needed. They were caved in in the first, but came back to control the play in the second and third periods. It was really good to see them control the play in the third when they had the lead. They were still able to spend most of the period in the offensive zone.

The new defensive pairings did not look great. Jones and Trouba were the adventure I was expecting them to be, and Miller and Schneider spent too much time pinned in the defensive zone. I would still roll with these pairings for another couple of games to see if they improve.

On Jones, I would not be too hard on him for getting burned trying to step up at the defensive blue line. This is part of the normal progression of a young defenseman. He has to learn which reads that might work in the AHL level are not going to work at the NHL level. So you either have to try to step up and learn through getting burned now and then, or you always sit back and play a safe game. Zac Jones will not stick in the NHL playing a safe game, so he has to step up. Miller is also still learning when step up and when to stay back. It can take years. Fox was able to do it in half a season, but Fox is on another level.

Lines 1 and 4 looked good. Line 3 was OK. Line 2 was not. I do not know why Kakko and Chytil are not owning the wall as much and getting pushed around more. It might be that they are facing tougher defense pairings because Panarin is on the ice.

Halak had a great game. He made the saves he needed to and stole a couple of goals.

 

[KevinFinnerty]

Vesey is doing great for someone who came on as a PTO. Meanwhile Kravtsov Is a 9th overall pick and we're excited over cycling a puck down low. He needs to do better I'm sorry.

 

[NYR Viper]

Vesey is doing great for someone who came on as a PTO. Meanwhile Kravtsov Is a 9th overall pick and we're excited over cycling a puck down low. He needs to do better I'm sorry.

Literally his first game in weeks

 

[kovazub94]

White castle sliders sound good.

Are you that wasted? ; )

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

Literally his first game in weeks

This is why I keep saying, expectations = bad.

This mentality is why a significant piece of our fanbase continues to, as another poster put it quite eloquently, fellate grit, and why we haven't won a Cup or developed a potential Hall of Fame offensive player in a generation.

Perhaps we should rename the prototypical "generational player" in the context of this organization since they clearly don't come along once every generation for this organization.

As if Jimmy Vesey is going to magically morph into a 75 point player at age 29.

Meanwhile, Kravtsov *could* someday, but clearly that's not going to happen when he plays his first game in weeks, puts up good metrics, looks decent on the ice, but gets criticized cuz he doesn't score. And Vally's expert analysis of Vesey's "goal" showed quite clearly how that was a systems goal, and literally any NHL caliber player would have also scored there.

There are days I hope the kids get traded and light it up for another team just to prove the point in the hopes this organization will finally get a clue, but the reality is even when that happens (such as with Buch), nothing changes.

 

[cwede]

GARRIOCH: Just when things were starting to look up, Senators drop one to Rangers at home

Only Shane Pinto was able to score for the Senators as the club closed out November with a 4-9-1 record for the month.

ottawasun.com

 

[SA16]

12 mins for Lafreniere. 15 mins for Kakko.

NYR, destroying 1st round picks since 1963.

Kakko was second among all forwards in 5v5 ice time a big 3 seconds behind Panarin. This is a weird complaint.

 

[SA16]

"Steady forward?" Yes, only because there were no expectations of him. So because everything he contributes in excess of "turns the puck over Trouba style, falls down, and allows his defensive assignment to score a goal" is viewed as a win, he can do no wrong.

He has 8 points in 23 games, almost half of those playing in the top 6. And if you are focused on analytics, his relative Corsi and Fenwick numbers are both negative as they have been for the past 3 seasons.

What exactly has he been steady at besides not looking like a complete nub on the ice, which at least 17 other players on the roster could also do, including ones who actually are rumored to have this elusive concept known as "potential"?

Before focusing on analytics you should focus on correctly reading the stats page. Neither his relative Corsi, or Fenwick, numbers are negative. I suppose it's easy enough to just state things to attempt to defend your point and assume nobody will fact check you though.

Additionally, nowhere near half his ice time is in the top 6. 94 out of his 254 minutes have been with Zibanejad. Another 7 with Panarin. 2 of those overlapped. So about 99 of 254 mins with one of them.

 

[CasusBelli]

Guessing they decided to get their act together after seeing what Halak did to his stick after his previous loss.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

Before focusing on analytics you should focus on correctly reading the stats page. Neither his relative Corsi, or Fenwick, numbers are negative. I suppose it's easy enough to just state things to attempt to defend your point and assume nobody will fact check you though.

Additionally, nowhere near half his ice time is in the top 6. 94 out of his 254 minutes have been with Zibanejad. Another 7 with Panarin. 2 of those overlapped. So about 99 of 254 mins with one of them.

Where exactly do you see positive relative Corsi or Fenwick?

And yes, 40% of the season playing in the top 6 is "almost half."

But let's keep trying this same tired act we tried for 3 seasons because he tries hard. Literally held back Buchnevich the first time, now he's holding back Kakko who actually looked good on that line, and we're celebrating a mediocre performance by a mediocre player on that line hwen Kakko looked like he was starting to take the next step this season on that line.

 

[SA16]

Where exactly do you see positive relative Corsi or Fenwick?

View attachment 615530

And yes, 40% of the season playing in the top 6 is "almost half."

But let's keep trying this same tired act we tried for 3 seasons because he tries hard. Literally held back Buchnevich the first time, now he's holding back Kakko who actually looked good on that line, and we're celebrating a mediocre performance by a mediocre player on that line hwen Kakko looked like he was starting to take the next step this season on that line.

All situations Corsi

 

[kovazub94]

Where exactly do you see positive relative Corsi or Fenwick?

View attachment 615530

And yes, 40% of the season playing in the top 6 is "almost half."

But let's keep trying this same tired act we tried for 3 seasons because he tries hard. Literally held back Buchnevich the first time, now he's holding back Kakko who actually looked good on that line, and we're celebrating a mediocre performance by a mediocre player on that line hwen Kakko looked like he was starting to take the next step this season on that line.

Literally the next tab over

 

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

The Kravtsov player profile has always been out of sync with the image of a wacky zany Russian who gets in trouble with the team, posts cryptic shit on Instagram, gets mysterious injuries etc. He's always looked good with boring puck retrieval stuff, he played his best hockey with Howden and Rooney, and outside of the Russian playoffs in the year we drafted him he's never been a huge scorer or point producer anywhere. So if he wants to stay and he wants to play that role he can probably be a good bottom six player, and who knows, maybe he can fill out or get some more consistency in his game and pick up from there.

 

[kovazub94]

Where exactly do you see positive relative Corsi or Fenwick?

View attachment 615530

And yes, 40% of the season playing in the top 6 is "almost half."

But let's keep trying this same tired act we tried for 3 seasons because he tries hard. Literally held back Buchnevich the first time, now he's holding back Kakko who actually looked good on that line, and we're celebrating a mediocre performance by a mediocre player on that line hwen Kakko looked like he was starting to take the next step this season on that line.

I have no idea what Buchnevich has to do with anything - different (multiple) years and different coaches.

But how's Vesey holding back Kakko? Kakko has been getting just as many ES minutes as any top forward here. Vesey is not on PP. In terms of center - Chytil arguably has been at least as good as Zibanejad and as a lefty probably a better fit to form a duo with Kakko.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

I have no idea what Buchnevich has to do with anything - different (multiple) years and different coaches.

But how's Vesey holding back Kakko? Kakko has been getting just as many ES minutes as any top forward here. Vesey is not on PP. In terms of center - Chytil arguably has been at least as good as Zibanejad and as a lefty probably a better fit to form a duo with Kakko.

How is he holding back Kakko? He literally took his spot on the top line where he was working.

Now Kakko has 1 point in the last 8 games, has seen under 15 minutes of ice time in 3 of those, and is playing timid again.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

How is he holding back Kakko? He literally took his spot on the top line where he was working.

Now Kakko has 1 point in the last 8 games, has seen under 15 minutes of ice time in 3 of those, and is playing timid again.

He's missed a few breakaways, open nets, and passed up multiple opportunities to shoot the puck in high danger areas. That's not a line mate issue.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

He's missed a few breakaways, open nets, and passed up multiple opportunities to shoot the puck in high danger areas. That's not a line mate issue.

Confidence issue. He was playing great on with Kreider and Zibanejad, now he's playing timid again. Three weeks ago everyone here was talking about how he'd taken the next step and was playing with authority, how he was probably "leading the league in third assists," and how more points was only a matter of time. And now, exactly what you said above.

When it's literally every young forward in this organization consistently failing to demonstrate any marked improvement over their rookie season in their first 3-4 seasons with the team, I'm not going to keep blaming the young players while singing the praises of mediocre veterans like Vesey who go out there and get heaped with praise because little is expected of them, and a coaching staff that won't hold veterans accountable when they suck.

It's the double standards that are stupid. Vesey's in a scoring role, he's not there to play defense. These were probably the same people that defended Rick Nash's awful second half of his Rangers' career - look guys, he's backchecking! Kakko gets criticized for misses and bad decisions, but no one criticizes Vesey when he takes a lane on a 2-on-1 towards the left wing corner that takes away any shooting angle, and he doesn't move to open up the pass when the defenseman slots back to take the passing lane away, so he ends up shooting a fadeaway wrister into the goalie's chest (happened a few games ago). No one criticizes Goodrow for not attempting a centering pass to a teammate wide open in the slot because he decides to turn back towards the end boards and try the "safe" play of kicking the puck to the half wall winger. No one seems to care when Blais dumps it in from just inside the redline rather than hitting Gauthier in full stride for a potential partial breakaway when the passing lane is open. But hey, grit over everything else right? It's how you win championships, right? As if the Rangers organization is some sort of authority on that concept because they've had a few playoff runs. (Note - This is not a criticism of you, this is a criticism of the organization's mentality)

 

[aufheben]

12 mins for Lafreniere. 15 mins for Kakko.

NYR, destroying 1st round picks since 1963.

Norris trophy for Fox tho?

I think this franchise generally just has shit luck drafting forwards. If we drafted Sidney Crosby fricken Vesey would have like 20 goals right now.

 

[kovazub94]

How is he holding back Kakko? He literally took his spot on the top line where he was working.
....

Did you read at all where I specifically asked why is it holding him back? No loss of ice time, better (for him) center who’s doing pretty well himself?

 

[GENESISPuck94]

Norris trophy for Fox tho?

I think this franchise generally just has shit luck drafting forwards. If we drafted Sidney Crosby fricken Vesey would have like 20 goals right now.

We didn't draft Foxy. Tho, I guess there's no difference because he made his NHL debut with us. But, yes, I should have specified forwards. Rangers are complete garbage at drafting and developing forwards even when they get the slam dunk surefire #1 overall pick. Laf would be a star right now anywhere else.

 

[kovazub94]

Confidence issue. He was playing great on with Kreider and Zibanejad, now he's playing timid again. Three weeks ago everyone here was talking about how he'd taken the next step and was playing with authority, how he was probably "leading the league in third assists," and how more points was only a matter of time. And now, exactly what you said above.

When it's literally every young forward in this organization consistently failing to demonstrate any marked improvement over their rookie season in their first 3-4 seasons with the team, I'm not going to keep blaming the young players while singing the praises of mediocre veterans like Vesey who go out there and get heaped with praise because little is expected of them, and a coaching staff that won't hold veterans accountable when they suck.

It's the double standards that are stupid. Vesey's in a scoring role, he's not there to play defense. These were probably the same people that defended Rick Nash's awful second half of his Rangers' career - look guys, he's backchecking! Kakko gets criticized for misses and bad decisions, but no one criticizes Vesey when he takes a lane on a 2-on-1 towards the left wing corner that takes away any shooting angle, and he doesn't move to open up the pass when the defenseman slots back to take the passing lane away, so he ends up shooting a fadeaway wrister into the goalie's chest (happened a few games ago). No one criticizes Goodrow for not attempting a centering pass to a teammate wide open in the slot because he decides to turn back towards the end boards and try the "safe" play of kicking the puck to the half wall winger. No one seems to care when Blais dumps it in from just inside the redline rather than hitting Gauthier in full stride for a potential partial breakaway when the passing lane is open. But hey, grit over everything else right? It's how you win championships, right? As if the Rangers organization is some sort of authority on that concept because they've had a few playoff runs. (Note - This is not a criticism of you, this is a criticism of the organization's mentality)

You’re making a connection where it doesn’t exist. Kakko missed a few open net chances and had goalies making a couple of huge saves against him. If anything this is what makes him look “timid” now as you put it. Had he stayed with Zibanejad it’s likely would the developed the same way. Has little to do with going to Chytil line.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

Did you read at all where I specifically asked why is it holding him back? No loss of ice time, better (for him) center who’s doing pretty well himself?

Why is this so difficult to understand? It's taking him out of a situation with Kreider and Zibanejad where he was succeeding and creating offense, and putting him in one where he isn't. And for no reason at all other than ostensibly to "reward" Vesey for his hard work and grit. And it is reducing KK's ice time. His minutes ARE down over the last 8-9 games since this move.

You’re making a connection where it doesn’t exist. Kakko missed a few open net chances and had goalies making a couple of huge saves against him. If anything this is what makes him look “timid” now as you put it. Had he stayed with Zibanejad it’s likely would the developed the same way. Has little to do with going to Chytil line.

So you're telling me you see no difference between Kakko's play on the top line - where he was routinely attempting plays like the Anaheim goal, possessing the puck uncontested and making plays, winning board battles and coming away with puck - and now, where he is not driving the net, he's not using his size effectively along the boards (he's back to reaching for the puck and letting players get position on him). His play has fallen off enormously the last 3 weeks. That's not making a connection, it's what's happening on the ice.

And again, for WHAT purpose? It's not like Vesey is lighting it up on the first line or has major untapped potential. The reason this organization sucks at developing scoring forwards is they only get better at scoring by actually trying to score, not by trying to play Gritty Rangers Hockey (TM). If a line is working, leave it alone. But by all means keep moving the kid all over the lineup and keep asking him to defer to everyone else, and don't be surprised when in 5 years he maxes out as Tuomo Ruutu.

 

[Kaapo di tutti capi]

I'd kill for a children's picture book of all the burns HFB have come up with over the years because of how young Vesey looks. Illustrations and all. There's been some good ones.

I feel like Highlights for Children tailor made this for Jimmy and Gerard.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Kakko was second among all forwards in 5v5 ice time a big 3 seconds behind Panarin. This is a weird complaint.

Kakko is actually getting a lot of ice time, outside of PP1 of course. But ive seen them double shifting him a little here and there. Not sure if its by design or if hes jumping over the boards early but whatever the case its good

 

[will1066]

Lol

Think I'll be able to catch tonight's game.


Lol

Think I'll be able to catch tonight's game.

There is no game. My schedule is all messed up!