C Mitchell Marner - London Knights, OHL (2015, 4th, TOR) IV

[The Winter Soldier]

Obviously all players have to refine their game, but a player scoring on a 1 on 2 is on the d and the goalie. Barzal is good and they have similar attributes, but Marner is a way better goal scorer, Barzal is clearly in the tier below Marner and Strome, and it was shown in pretty much all pre-draft rankings and how the actual draft went. If Leafs passed on there pick, Marner he wouldn't slip to 16th, he probably doesn't get past Jersey or at worst the Sharks. There was a clear consensus top 5 pre-draft, while Barzal was in that 6 to 12 grouping.

You claim Marner who has put up points at 2 ppg clip for 85 games should be a 3rd line center on the Canada WJC? When Marner was the best player at the WJC summer camp, a higher pick, considered a better prospect by practically every major source, should be behind Barzal because of Barzal's amazing WJC-U18 tournament where guys like Dzierkalis and Bracco played at a similar level.

Citing Bracco 's points is fine, but also putting context into them is better. Matthews and Tkachuk were on that same team. And had as many or more points. I am not sure what your point is? I think most here would not put Leafs prospects Dzierkalis and Bracco in the same class of Barzal by comparing raw under 18 stats.

Are you claiming you are saying Dzierkalis and Bracco are just as good as Barzal?

BTW this is a Marner thread and maybe this conversation should be taken elsewhere. But since you went in this Dzierkalis and Bracco direction. I wanted to respond once before this gets off course.

In the end if you want to critique Barzal, you may want to use other examples. Let's go to the Barzal thread and not do it here.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

Let's be honest here Interactif, it's quite clear you have an agenda with Marner, and it's no surprise you popped in here after the Kitchener game (Mitchell played well, mind you). And it won't be a surprise if you popped in here again only when Marner puts up another sort of these score lines. No offence, but it's difficult to take your opinion seriously on Marner

I can't imagine the hoopla you'd create if Marner had a 1 goal month like a certain favorite prospect of yours

Anyways, hopefully London shores up that defence

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Let's be honest here Interactif, it's quite clear you have an agenda with Marner, and it's no surprise you popped in here after the Kitchener game (Mitchell played well, mind you). And it won't be a surprise if you popped in here again only when Marner puts up another sort of these score lines. No offence, but it's difficult to take your opinion seriously on Marner

I can't imagine the hoopla you'd create if Marner had a 1 goal month like a certain favorite prospect of yours

I will repeat. Marner is a good prospect. 3rd time I have said this in this thread. If you do not want to take my opinion seriously. There's your agenda.

 

[The Podium]

I will repeat. Marner is a good prospect. 3rd time I have said this in this thread. If you do not want to take my opinion seriously. There's your agenda.

You purposely bring controversy to every Leaf related discussion. Its like you so badly want approval from every other fan base so you go against the grain of Leaf fans popular opinion, in every circumstance, only to later proclaim yourself as a "realistic" or "unbiased" Leaf fan insinuating that the rest of us are delusional. You are doing to Nylander and Marner what you did to Kadri, magnify any faults despite their accomplishments ending off with an empty complement only to save your ass.

 

[93LEAFS]

Citing Bracco 's points is fine, but also putting context into them is better. Matthews and Tkachuk were on that same team. And had as many or more points. I am not sure what your point is? I think most here would not put Leafs prospects Dzierkalis and Bracco in the same class of Barzal by comparing raw under 18 stats.

Are you claiming you are saying Dzierkalis and Bracco are just as good as Barzal?

BTW this is a Marner thread and maybe this conversation should be taken elsewhere. But since you went in this Dzierkalis and Bracco direction. I wanted to respond once before this gets off course.

In the end if you want to critique Barzal, you may want to use other examples. Let's go to the Barzal thread and not do it here.

I used them because they were statistical comparables from that tournament. Bracco did it on the 2nd line with White and Clayton Keller. You use a tournament that Barzal did well at, that was missing many prospects, while Marner was in the OHL playoffs putting up 16 points in 7 games to justify Barzal's superiority. When at the Hnlinka they played at a similar level, or both CHL seasons where Marner drastically outperformed him. Your using a tournament where a qtr of Barzal's points came in the beat down of a tiny Baltic country, u subtract that game he put up 9 in 6 games, which is good but not amazing.

And no i'm not saying Bracco or Dzierkalis are better or even comparable, i would trade both of them for Barzal in a second. But Marner is a clear tier above Barzal, and you are practically the only person who has Barzal above Marner. I'm not taking this to the Barzal thread because I want to let the Isles fans enjoy Barzal in peace and not have another Leafs vs whoever prospect thread. This is on topic, as I'm saying Marner is clearly above Barzal.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I used them because they were statistical comparables from that tournament. Bracco did it on the 2nd line with White and Clayton Keller. You use a tournament that Barzal did well at, that was missing many prospects, while Marner was in the OHL playoffs putting up 16 points in 7 games to justify Barzal's superiority. When at the Hnlinka they played at a similar level, or both CHL seasons where Marner drastically outperformed him. Your using a tournament where a qtr of Barzal's points came in the beat down of a tiny Baltic country, u subtract that game he put up 9 in 6 games, which is good but not amazing.

And no i'm not saying Bracco or Dzierkalis are better or even comparable, i would trade both of them for Barzal in a second. But Marner is a clear tier above Barzal, and you are practically the only person who has Barzal above Marner. I'm not taking this to the Barzal thread because I want to let the Isles fans enjoy Barzal in peace and not have another Leafs vs whoever prospect thread. This is on topic, as I'm saying Marner is clearly above Barzal.

That argument is flawed then. If you are solely using Bracco's points totals as your guide. Then he would be better or as good as Matthews or Tkachuk then. This is why I addressed it.

Further, Marner is clearly not a better prospect than Barzal at this time. He was picked before him, this is a fact. We won't know for years to come what their final impact will be in the NHL.

Marner is a good prospect, he is looking like a good bet to be a top 6 winger in the NHL. I think he is very comparable to Nik Ehlers a player I have posted a lot on here on the main board of liking.

Is he a Center? Not sure of that. Barzal is. I place Centers above wingers in my rankings. Quility Top 6 Centers especially. This does not make Marner a bad prospect. I think Leafs fans need to cool their defences here. If one does not subscribe to Marner being the 3rd best player in this draft then you get these type of replies I am getting,

 

[The Podium]

That argument is flawed then. If you are solely using Bracco's points totals as your guide. Then he would be better or as good as Matthews or Tkachuk then. This is why I addressed it.

I have to ask. Do you not see how you're contradicting yourself? You are honestly saying "The tournament argument is only valid when it fits my narrative, since you turned it against me it doesn't work".

 

[93LEAFS]

That argument is flawed then. If you are solely using Bracco's points totals as your guide. Then he would be better or as good as Matthews or Tkachuk then. This is why I addressed it.

Further, Marner is clearly not a better prospect than Barzal at this time. He was picked before him, this is a fact. We won't know for years to come what their final impact will be in the NHL.

Marner is a good prospect, he is looking like a good bet to be a top 6 winger in the NHL. I think he is very comparable to Nik Ehlers a player I have posted a lot on here on the main board of liking.

Is he a Center? Not sure of that. Barzal is. I place Centers above wingers in my rankings. Quility Top 6 Centers especially. This does not make Marner a bad prospect. I think Leafs fans need to cool their defences here. If one does not subscribe to Marner being the 3rd best player in this draft then you get these type of replies I am getting,

Not one major source had Barzal above Marner outside of "your rankings" Marner went 4th, Barzal slipped to 16th. Find me one source who had Barzal above Marner that was released past March of 2015. They have very similar traits but Marner is the better goal scorer and always has been, he outplayed him for both seasons in the CHL. Boston doesn't pass on Marner 3 times and I doubt Dallas, Florida, Colorado, Columbus or Jersey, they did on Barzal. And I'm not only using Bracco's point totals as a guide, what I'm saying is your blowing a 6 game sample size out of proportion and Matthew's did outscore Bracco. And nowhere did I say Bracco was better, what I did say is your overvaluing a tournament where Barzal had no real competition for ice time and where he was good but not elite. 9 points in 6 games (taking out the Latvia blowout) is not that impressive. If these factors don't make it obvious that Marner is almost always viewed as the better prospect I don't know what will.

 

[The Podium]

Not one major source had Barzal above Marner outside of "your rankings" Marner went 4th, Barzal slipped to 16th. Find me one source who had Barzal above Marner that was released past March of 2015. They have very similar traits but Marner is the better goal scorer and always has been, he outplayed him for both seasons in the CHL. Boston doesn't pass on Marner 3 times and I doubt Dallas, Florida, Colorado, Columbus or Jersey, they did on Barzal. And I'm not only using Bracco's point totals as a guide, what I'm saying is your blowing a 6 game sample size out of proportion and Matthew's did outscore Bracco. And nowhere did I say Bracco was better, what I did say is your overvaluing a tournament where Barzal had no real competition for ice time and where he was good but not elite. 9 points in 6 games (taking out the Latvia blowout) is not that impressive. If these factors don't make it obvious that Marner is almost always viewed as the better prospect I don't know what will.

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2015-draft/prospect-rankings/

 

[93LEAFS]

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2015-draft/prospect-rankings/

Oh, i know that source, think I see a clean sweep for Mitch, 11 for 11.

 

[Shwaguy*]

http://www.mynhldraft.com/2015-draft/prospect-rankings/

Am I missing something? I don't see a single one that has Barzal higher than Marner.

 

[The Podium]

Am I missing something? I don't see a single one that has Barzal higher than Marner.

Exactly

 

[Backhandshelf81]

Am I missing something? I don't see a single one that has Barzal higher than Marner.

Nope, none of the actual experts have Barzal higher, but you see I can create my own arbitrary list where Barzal is higher. Showing that Marner is not the better prospect. QED.

 

[Stand Witness]

Am I missing something? I don't see a single one that has Barzal higher than Marner.

I think that was the point

 

[Redwingsfan]

Is it really that far fetched to think Barzal can end up being a better NHL player than Marner? I like Marner a little more than Barzal personally, but thats not really the point. "pro scouts" end up being wrong about something in every draft, so I dont think its unrealistic to think it can happen again.

I put my money on marner, but anything can happen with prospects, and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if Barzal ends up better.

 

[The Podium]

Is it really that far fetched to think Barzal can end up being a better NHL player than Marner? I like Marner a little more than Barzal personally, but thats not really the point. "pro scouts" end up being wrong about something in every draft, so I dont think its unrealistic to think it can happen again.

I put my money on marner, but anything can happen with prospects, and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if Barzal ends up better.

It is certainly possible. I don't think anyone's arguing against it. Leaf fans have a vendetta against Interactif or "The Mentalist" and we are just trying to discredit his arguments.

 

[Cotton]

Why shouldn't I talk about other prospects? This is a prospects thread isn't it? As for only posting about Marner when he does not play well. As I said, Marner has a large following here that already posts about his points with great frequency here. This thread does not need me to push him. Leafs fans do this well enough.

But I will disagree with you that I do what you claim. I posted his play had really taken off when he moved back to wing from center to play with Dvorak and Tkachuk recently. Maybe you missed this.

Regardless I will continue to call it like it is on this board.

But... you don't call it like it is. I think that's what the problem is, and it's pretty apparent at this point that if given the ability you would be booted from the many Leaf bashing conversations you attempt to create by a majority vote.

FYI; you "calling it like it is" implies you see/understand how things are in reality, however, you often hold views that fly in the face of what people who actually watch these kids think/express. And that you seem to have an agenda in which you go out of your way to bash Leaf fans as delusional homers, and then try and set yourself apart by telling people you are reasonable to win... I don't know what, credibility? in the eye of posters from other fan bases is sort of greasy, and highly disingenuous, and if not - delusional.

 

[93LEAFS]

Is it really that far fetched to think Barzal can end up being a better NHL player than Marner? I like Marner a little more than Barzal personally, but thats not really the point. "pro scouts" end up being wrong about something in every draft, so I dont think its unrealistic to think it can happen again.

I put my money on marner, but anything can happen with prospects, and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if Barzal ends up better.

Its not out of the question, its more how this poster goes about it, presenting himself as the rational leafs fan, and those who don't agree with him as deluded leafs fans to people on the main boards. Its more about the evidence he uses and popping into this thread to say Marner is a minus 3, then giving no explanation on the plays that led to it. Bracco could be better than Barzal and Marner, Kylington could be better than Hanifin, Provorov and Werenski, but there not that likely. Marner was ahead of Barzal almost everywhere and has out performed him both years in the CHL and looked better at the WJC summer camp. To put Marner 9th and Barzal 5th is a bit strange.

 

[Menzinger]

Barzal is a fine prospect, would like to have him in the Leafs pool - but it's simply laughable to suggest he is a better prospect that Marner.

Sure, there is a slight chance in 10 years he may be a better NHLer, but right now the evidence overwhelmingly points to Marner being the better PROSPECT so far.

 

[Brock Radunske]

Let's be honest here Interactif, it's quite clear you have an agenda with Marner, and it's no surprise you popped in here after the Kitchener game (Mitchell played well, mind you). And it won't be a surprise if you popped in here again only when Marner puts up another sort of these score lines. No offence, but it's difficult to take your opinion seriously on Marner

I can't imagine the hoopla you'd create if Marner had a 1 goal month like a certain favorite prospect of yours

Anyways, hopefully London shores up that defence

It's not just Marner. He loves to say controversial things about Leafs prospects and players to get a rise out of them.
It's best just to ignore him and not encourage him.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Is it really that far fetched to think Barzal can end up being a better NHL player than Marner? I like Marner a little more than Barzal personally, but thats not really the point. "pro scouts" end up being wrong about something in every draft, so I dont think its unrealistic to think it can happen again.

I put my money on marner, but anything can happen with prospects, and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if Barzal ends up better.

There are many possibilities in the 2015 draft of players being better than players drafted earlier.

We already see an example of one in 2014 in Dylan Larkin. Larkin was picked was picked at #15.

Hardly unrealistic that Barzal can have the same impact as Larkin has from the fine crop from 2014. He is slotted in as a #2C behind Tavares as soon as he makes the jump.

I think Marner will be a fine points producing top 6 winger in the NHL. He will always put up points, he is a talent offensively and that will be his value. Nothing wrong with having a points producing winger in the top 6 in the NHL.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Not one major source had Barzal above Marner outside of "your rankings" Marner went 4th, Barzal slipped to 16th. Find me one source who had Barzal above Marner that was released past March of 2015. They have very similar traits but Marner is the better goal scorer and always has been, he outplayed him for both seasons in the CHL. Boston doesn't pass on Marner 3 times and I doubt Dallas, Florida, Colorado, Columbus or Jersey, they did on Barzal. And I'm not only using Bracco's point totals as a guide, what I'm saying is your blowing a 6 game sample size out of proportion and Matthew's did outscore Bracco. And nowhere did I say Bracco was better, what I did say is your overvaluing a tournament where Barzal had no real competition for ice time and where he was good but not elite. 9 points in 6 games (taking out the Latvia blowout) is not that impressive. If these factors don't make it obvious that Marner is almost always viewed as the better prospect I don't know what will.

Barzal was highly touted in the August tournament in 2014. Please stop with putting words in my mouth by changing the narrative to Mar 2015. We all know and it has been stated several times that Barzal was hurt last year which likely caused him to drop in rankings from the eariler point he was rated higher than Marner was before the start of last season.

Here is the source you asked for. Bob Mckenzie, he's a pretty good reliable source most would agree.

http://www.tsn.ca/2014-15-nhl-pre-season-draft-rankings-1.93188

Notice who was ranked 6th, 7th and 9th before the start of last season.

The point I was confirming in reply to the poster that said the same thing.

 

[X66]

That argument is flawed then. If you are solely using Bracco's points totals as your guide. Then he would be better or as good as Matthews or Tkachuk then. This is why I addressed it.

Further, Marner is clearly not a better prospect than Barzal at this time. He was picked before him, this is a fact. We won't know for years to come what their final impact will be in the NHL.

Lol.

Find me any scout, GM or coach that would take Barzal ahead of Marner, today.

I don't think there is a single ranking taken since they were drafted that has Barzal ahead of Marner.

I am very, very, VERY happy that you are not a scout of the Leafs.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Lol.

Find me any scout, GM or coach that would take Barzal ahead of Marner, today.

I don't think there is a single ranking taken since they were drafted that has Barzal ahead of Marner.

I am very, very, VERY happy that you are not a scout of the Leafs.

Spoken like a true pro Leafs fan. I like the 2015 crop of players. There are many players in this draft that will go onto being great players for their teams. The point is other than Mc-Eichel. One shouldn't be surprised if players drafted later can have equal or better impact than players picked earlier. All the players I have mentioned, are good players. It all comes down to how one values players. I like many scouts value the Center position more than the Wing, when all things are equal. As a Leafs fan you should understand this, having not have had one good top quality 6 Center since Sundin retired.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

The injury is a poor excuse, considering it was early in his season (November), and he had plenty of time to recuperate. Which he did, considering his performance in the playoffs and the U18s. Still, Marner came ahead in the final rankings

And besides, taking their pre-draft rankings is much more unfair to Marner than taking their final rankings. He didn't exactly play in London's top 6 on a regular basis in his pre-draft season, unlike Barzal.

Good try though