Burlington Group Approached NHL for possible 2nd GTA/S.O. Franchise

[CHRDANHUTCH]

please try to read what people write here ... I said Buffalo cannot claim territorial rights over a franchise located in Burlington. of course Burlington is within Leafs territory (do you not see the big green circle?)

ps, i think im more familiar with mlse and it owners present and past than most here.

it's never going to happen, GS, YOU STILL DEAL WITH Delaware North, which is based where.....BUFFALO

 

[Mightygoose]

it's never going to happen, GS, YOU STILL DEAL WITH Delaware North, which is based where.....BUFFALO

Which if Burlington is condiered outside of Buffalo's territory, all they get is one vote in the matter.

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Edit: According to this site, the linear distance between downtown Buffalo and Burlington is 56.4 miles which is outside of Buffalo's territory. If the site is Appleby Line/QEW area is where the arena is going to be, then it's even further away.

This makes it outside of the Sabres TV territory within Southern Ontario too.

 

[Bookie21]

please try to read what people write here ... I said Buffalo cannot claim territorial rights over a franchise located in Burlington. of course Burlington is within Leafs territory (do you not see the big green circle?)

ps, i think im more familiar with mlse and it owners present and past than most here.

I'm not necessarily disagreing with you here, it's just that all I've ever heard or read is that Buffalo would be entitled to an indemnification fee. Is that 50 mile radius in the NHL bylaws? I would imagine if the rink was in Burlington, it would just be semantics, the team would still be called Hamilton. Could they skirt the rules and build the arena 51 miles outside of Buffalo and be in accordance with league territorial borders? Maybe. I doubt Pegula would be happy with an arena being 51 miles away from Buffalo though.
Quote from the article linked: "Under longstanding N.H.L. rules, Hamilton lies within the Buffalo Sabres' territory. ... It would take an enormous indemnification payment to the Sabres to make them give up as much as 15% of their annual business."

slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/16/what-southern-ontario-means-and-why-losing-the-sabres-could-crush-the-nhl/

 

[TheTotalPackage]

This came completely out of nowhere, seems way more farfetched than the potential Markham team from a couple years back, and the timing is odd considering Seattle is getting the 32nd team.

 

[Spirit of 67]

Can't see it. Probably cost a guy 1 billion for the franchise (Seattle is $650 mil USD, it's only going up from there.... $750 mil USD= 1 Billion CDN). Add in $500 million for an arena......and you know the Leafs and Sabres will extract a pound of flesh.....ball park $200 million per team. Looking at 2 billion total before you even drop the puck

One thing I've thought of with the Leafs is MLSE could build the building and lease it to the Burlington Coat Tails. This would be part of territorial rights (if they exist) but also, maybe more importantly, they don't have competition for concert, etc. dollars. Could take away from Copps in Hamilton too. If th6ey even are a threat.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Which if Burlington is condiered outside of Buffalo's territory, all they get is one vote in the matter.

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Edit: According to this site, the linear distance between downtown Buffalo and Burlington is 56.4 miles which is outside of Buffalo's territory. If the site is Appleby Line/QEW area is where the arena is going to be, then it's even further away.

This makes it outside of the Sabres TV territory within Southern Ontario too.

Jeremy Jacobs will protect Buffalo, always has and will as long as Delaware North exists, no matter who operates the Sabres, concessions or not, MG

 

[Mightygoose]

Jeremy Jacobs will protect Buffalo, always has and will as long as Delaware North exists, no matter who operates the Sabres, concessions or not, MG

Oh I agree, which is why I think this will be long ways from happening...if it happens at.all. Once Jacobs is dead, that barrier will be gone and then only Buffalo will care for Buffalo

 

[GuelphStormer]

I'm not necessarily disagreing with you here, it's just that all I've ever heard or read is that Buffalo would be entitled to an indemnification fee. Is that 50 mile radius in the NHL bylaws? I would imagine if the rink was in Burlington, it would just be semantics, the team would still be called Hamilton. Could they skirt the rules and build the arena 51 miles outside of Buffalo and be in accordance with league territorial borders? Maybe. I doubt Pegula would be happy with an arena being 51 miles away from Buffalo though.
Quote from the article linked: "Under longstanding N.H.L. rules, Hamilton lies within the Buffalo Sabres' territory. ... It would take an enormous indemnification payment to the Sabres to make them give up as much as 15% of their annual business."

slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/16/what-southern-ontario-means-and-why-losing-the-sabres-could-crush-the-nhl/

hamilton and burlington are two different cities. burlington is north of hamilton and further away from buffalo.

the nhl rules seem to indicate the outer boundaries of the city in which a franchise sits, not where the actual arena is, dictates the point of measure. we've argued here for sometime if that extends to both parties, just the new franchise or just the current one. regardless, the closest point along the burlington boundary is right at the north shore of the burlington skyway - the centre of my green circle. the 50M radius does not include buffalo, whether one chooses to measure where "buffalo" is located as the actual arena, general downtown, or the north edge of the city of buffalo boundary. (drawing the circle around buffalo serves the same explanation but it makes less clear where "burlington" is). in other words, anything located anywhere in burlington is beyond buffalo's 50M territory.

the issue under debate with respect to hamilton had to do with where to locate and measure "hamilton". if it's downtown or where copps sits, that distance to buffalo is actually very close to that 50M distance. if its measure at the southern most point along the city of hamilton boundaries, that's actually in (rural) glanbrook and it's well within the 50M distance to Buffalo. so, whether "Hamilton" is or is not technically within "Buffalo's" territory, it sure looks like it is, and most importantly, folks have behaved as if it is for decades, so it is.

burlington, though, is that that much further away from buffalo that it is not within sabres territory. that was all i was trying to say.

but to add, the sabres is a very different organization now than it was a few years ago when balsillie was trying to get into hamilton. it's performing much better now and has one of the deepest pocket owners in the league. buffalo is no longer in need of protection.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Won't happen. I'm positive without a doubt the Flames won't be leaving southern Alberta. They will definitely get their arena.

The olympic bid might die in city council. We'll see, but Ottawa has plans for a new arena at least.

 

[JMROWE]

Maybe Hamilton & Burlington should work together to bring a regional NHL. team to the rest of southern Ontario ?

Also have you notice a pattern here ever since Toronto2 team talk started first it was Vaughn then Markham & now Burlington it seems to me that they are inching closer to Hamilton .

A 2nd NHL. team in Southern Ontario is going to happen it is just matter of time & my guess is about 10 - 15 years away maybe sooner who knows .

 

[mouser]

View attachment 113801

... not to put too fine a point on this but even conservatively establishing "Burlington" as the bottom boundary closest to Buffalo (ie., the northern span of the Skyway), anything built anywhere within the city limits of Burlington will be outside of the 50 mile territory of Buffalo.

The Buffalo Sabres will not be entitled to any territorial fee if a franchise is located in Burlington. None.

Now draw a similar 50 mile circle around Buffalo and see if those two circles overlap.

The NHL grants teams a 50 mile radius circle of home territory rights. Two teams would have to be 100 miles apart for no overlap of home territory (and territorial fees) to occur.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

It'd be smarter to place it in Hamilton, Ontario. Heck, build an NHL arena with a capacity of 30,000 in Hamilton because not only does Hamilton deserve to have the second team in that area the most, also people from the GTA would go to Hamilton to watch a hockey game.

 

[Wingsfan 4 life]

Are the Leafs relocating?

 

[GuelphStormer]

Now draw a similar 50 mile circle around Buffalo and see if those two circles overlap.

The NHL grants teams a 50 mile radius circle of home territory rights. Two teams would have to be 100 miles apart for no overlap of home territory (and territorial fees) to occur.

yes, of course that would overlap. but it's not that simple and that's the issue we have been debating for years here with no consensus.

indeed, section 4.3 of the constitution grants exclusivity to a member franchise only within their 50 mile home territory, not beyond it. i do not think there has there ever been any sort of official statement from the league on overlapping home territories, except for when the various NYC teams were created. and while they were created long ago, the various franchises in the NYC area all have largely overlapping home territories (and NJ and NYI are actually within NYR's home territory) and that got worked it out, so nothing prevents the same from happening again elsewhere. nobody has a veto.

the important point is that a team in burlington is outside of buffalo's home territory and the sabres would therefore have no claim on territorial indemnification payment.

 

[Killion]

yes, of course that would overlap. but it's not that simple and that's the issue we have been debating for years here with no consensus.

indeed, section 4.3 of the constitution grants exclusivity to a member franchise only within their 50 mile home territory, not beyond it. i do not think there has there ever been any sort of official statement from the league on overlapping home territories, except for when the various NYC teams were created. and while they were created long ago, the various franchises in the NYC area all have largely overlapping home territories (and NJ and NYI are actually within NYR's home territory) and that got worked it out, so nothing prevents the same from happening again elsewhere. nobody has a veto.

the important point is that a team in burlington is outside of buffalo's home territory and the sabres would therefore have no claim on territorial indemnification payment.

Yeah, very true but they'd likely receive indemnification, the league (read Jacobs) demanding it, "Broadcast incursion" as was the case with the Rockies/Devils & Flyers, Islanders & Rangers..... Honestly though, I'm just not seeing this happen. Not anytime soon at anyrate. Maybe after Jacobs kicks it, Bettman retires, Rogers & Bell eventually winding up in Divorce Court & in splitting the spoils likely Bell receiving a green light to establish a 2nd team in Southern Ontario (outside of the GTA) as part of their settlement. While these guys, this family well enough off & certainly land rich I'm just not seeing it. Not at this time. Even if they had monied partners I'm as certain as I can be given who's involved & the situation at the League & team levels they'd be blocked....

My other concern, criticism is that Burlington itself, and all due respect to the people who live there, but its just an amorphous non-entity without much in the way of self-identity. Part of the suburban sprawl emanating from the southwestern portions of the GTA, all bleeding & blending into one. Hamilton on the other hand does have its own identity, much more "stand alone", defined. Independent. I'm not a fan of any concept that see's the 2nd team in that market being dropped into any of the suburban sprawl in the 416 or 905 area codes period. So for me, my opinion is it's Hamilton or bust.... and I'm liking the Hamilton waterfront locale as the best possible location, major revitalization project & development however, until such time as theres a changing of the guard at League level & in Toronto with the juggernaut thats the Leafs, Marlies, Raptors, Jays & Argo's, a possible NFL franchise etc.....

 

[mouser]

yes, of course that would overlap. but it's not that simple and that's the issue we have been debating for years here with no consensus.

indeed, section 4.3 of the constitution grants exclusivity to a member franchise only within their 50 mile home territory, not beyond it. i do not think there has there ever been any sort of official statement from the league on overlapping home territories, except for when the various NYC teams were created. and while they were created long ago, the various franchises in the NYC area all have largely overlapping home territories (and NJ and NYI are actually within NYR's home territory) and that got worked it out, so nothing prevents the same from happening again elsewhere. nobody has a veto.

the important point is that a team in burlington is outside of buffalo's home territory and the sabres would therefore have no claim on territorial indemnification payment.

"No franchise shall be granted for a home territory within the home territory of a member, without the written consent of such member." Again, unless the two teams are 100 miles apart then a new team would be receiving home territory within the home territory of the existing team. To further complicate things, the NHL doesn't treat home territory strictly as a 50 mile circle. In the U.S. if part of a county falls within the circle then the entire county is considered part of the home territory. I don't know if they do the exact same thing for Canada, but it would be possible given the county structure in Ontario. And on top of that, the NHL recognizes team TV territories that may extend well beyond the home market.**

The NHL has since said that has been amended so teams do not have a veto and it's up to a BoG vote. And as you note with NJ and NYI, yes it can be worked out--both the Devils and Islanders paid territorial fees to the Rangers.


** No, these details are not broken down in the Constitution or By-Laws. I'm basing them on seeing an NHL produced territorial map for one of the franchises that was included in a court exhibit.

 

[Killion]

"No franchise shall be granted for a home territory within the home territory of a member, without the written consent of such member." Again, unless the two teams are 100 miles apart then a new team would be receiving home territory within the home territory of the existing team. To further complicate things, the NHL doesn't treat home territory strictly as a 50 mile circle. In the U.S. if part of a county falls within the circle then the entire county is considered part of the home territory. I don't know if they do the exact same thing for Canada, but it would be possible given the county structure in Ontario. And on top of that, the NHL recognizes team TV territories that may extend well beyond the home market.**

The NHL has since said that has been amended so teams do not have a veto and it's up to a BoG vote. And as you note with NJ and NYI, yes it can be worked out--both the Devils and Islanders paid territorial fees to the Rangers.


** No, these details are not broken down in the Constitution or By-Laws. I'm basing them on seeing an NHL produced territorial map for one of the franchises that was included in a court exhibit.

Ya, pretty much all this... and of course if you had to challenge in court, restrictive trade practices, you'd be dead in the water the minute you even thought about doing so. Simply put theres just no way to force to the NHL to accept a team in ANY market regardless of whether or not it infringes on the territory of another. That it would merely providing yet more grist for the Leagues legal mill's to continue to churn out reasons for denying whatever applicant or potential relo's to wherever. These guys are above the law, the courts loathe to get involved, and if you arent willing to play by the NHL's rules then just dont bother applying. They have all kinds of ways to keep those doors bolted, keep you out be it cost, character or whatever. You simply have got to play by their rules & thats that.

 

[DowntownBooster]

Oh I agree, which is why I think this will be long ways from happening...if it happens at.all. Once Jacobs is dead, that barrier will be gone and then only Buffalo will care for Buffalo

Unless Jacobs successor has the same point of view. If so, it could be a long time before there is any second team in southern Ontario and I'm sure that would be fine with MLSE.

 

[Killion]

Unless Jacobs successor has the same point of view. If so, it could be a long time before there is any second team in southern Ontario and I'm sure that would be fine with MLSE.

Bingo.... I have this vision of Jeremy Jacobs on his Death Bed surrounded by his family, demanding his Sons & Heirs "swear to me you'll protect Buffalo or you get nothing"....

 

[Mightygoose]

Agreed on some level on the views of Jacob's successor has on this.

At the same time, with a changing of the guard once Jacobs is gone, would the next chairman of the board necessarily be from the Bruins organization? Depends where the power will shift when the time comes. Even a nuetral view is a move in the right direction as far as GTA 2/Southern Ontario is concerned.

 

[Spartachat]

The New York City Metro area has three teams and the LA Metro area has two teams. Why not the Toronto Metro area?

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Mostly I wonder if it's Bettman listening politely, or the league really has interest in a Toronto area expansion.

Or leveraging for higher expansion fees.

There shouldn't be a 2nd Toronto team. Then again, I'm not a fan of a 2nd LA area team or a 2nd NY team.

Add Seattle. Move the Yotes to Houston or Quebec City, and call it a day at 32 teams.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Or leveraging for higher expansion fees.

There shouldn't be a 2nd Toronto team. Then again, I'm not a fan of a 2nd LA area team or a 2nd NY team.

Add Seattle. Move the Yotes to Houston or Quebec City, and call it a day at 32 teams.

Arizona isn't moving East, deal with it, even if you add Seattle.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Arizona isn't moving East, deal with it, even if you add Seattle.

What if I told you Houston isn't, "East".

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

What if I told you Houston isn't, "East".

Arizona won't be East.... you already have sixteen teams, and the Coyotes aren't going anywhere until 2019 per lease