Confirmed with Link: [BUF/ANA] Brandon Montour for 2019 SJ 1st round pick and Brendan Guhle

[Exit Dose]

Seriously. Murray really doesn't **** around with arbitration. I'm terrified whenever that word is attached to one of our players.

Wasn't there an arbitration hearing that was rumored to be pretty ugly, early on in Murray's tenure?

 

[Getzmonster]

Wasn't there an arbitration hearing that was rumored to be pretty ugly, early on in Murray's tenure?

Honestly can't think of one. The way I remember it, Murray has always managed to strike a deal and avoid it, or move the player. Wouldn't surprise me though, he must feel they are too damaging to the future relationship to be worth it.

 

[Sojourn]

It isn't at all box score scouting, Karlsson just wasn't good there and the people who say they saw a first liner there are probably lying. It's also very much aided by hindsight to say he was buried by Torts, in reality they had a borderline desperate need for a center(actually, multiple) and he could never capitalize on his chances.

There was a whole discussion once upon a time where we ended up comparing Karlsson and Rakell for the sake of who we preferred long-term. Rakell was the favorite for many, but some of us definitely had very, very high opinions of Karlsson.

It definitely isn’t lying. At least not by some. I don’t remember exactly who went one way or the other, but a lot of the arguments for him involved a great overall skill set, and a very high hockey IQ. If memory serves, Rakell was viewed as the more “natural” talent, but the people who liked Karlsson more thought his hockey smarts would allow him to utilize his talent better. Karlsson’s hockey smarts were a sticking point, at least for me, when it came to favoring him over Rakell.

Rakell was talked about as a potential first liner, so you can bet Karlsson was too, because a number of people liked him better.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

There was a whole discussion once upon a time where we ended up comparing Karlsson and Rakell for the sake of who we preferred long-term. Rakell was the favorite for many, but some of us definitely had very, very high opinions of Karlsson.

It definitely isn’t lying. At least not by some. I don’t remember exactly who went one way or the other, but a lot of the arguments for him involved a great overall skill set, and a very high hockey IQ. If memory serves, Rakell was viewed as the more “natural” talent, but the people who liked Karlsson more thought his hockey smarts would allow him to utilize his talent better. Karlsson’s hockey smarts were a sticking point, at least for me, when it came to favoring him over Rakell.

Rakell was talked about as a potential first liner, so you can bet Karlsson was too, because a number of people liked him better.

Yeah... but that was before Karlsson went mental. Then everyone was on the same page that Karlsson went mental. It's b/c of that situation that Bob shipped him out. While some were iffy about it b/c Karlsson does have that talent, it was justifiable to move on from Wild Bill b/c what's going on above the shoulders.

I'm glad Wild Bill has become successful, but it took being a journeyman to have developed that humility above his shoulders. Our scouts spotted Wild Bill, so that means the org had very high hopes for him. If Wild Bill floundered in Vegas, then would we still be having this conversation? No. It's b/c Wild Bill found his way a few teams and years later that he finally figured it out mentally. The talent was always there, but that mentality... smh.

 

[AngelDuck]

You guys place way too much weight on effort and mentality and not enough on talent and opportunity.

Fans always immediately jump to struggles being an effort problem

 

[Sojourn]

Yeah... but that was before Karlsson went mental. Then everyone was on the same page that Karlsson went mental. It's b/c of that situation that Bob shipped him out. While some were iffy about it b/c Karlsson does have that talent, it was justifiable to move on from Wild Bill b/c what's going on above the shoulders.

I'm glad Wild Bill has become successful, but it took being a journeyman to have developed that humility above his shoulders. Our scouts spotted Wild Bill, so that means the org had very high hopes for him. If Wild Bill floundered in Vegas, then would we still be having this conversation? No. It's b/c Wild Bill found his way a few teams and years later that he finally figured it out mentally. The talent was always there, but that mentality... smh.

I was never happy with that trade, but that isn’t even the point. The point is that some people did view him as having first line upside. That’s it.

Even if Karlsson didn’t become what he did, it doesn’t erase those discussions we had over him. Would we be having this discussion? No, but again, that isn’t the point. The point is that some people were very high on Karlsson, and liked him better than Rakell. The point is that he was viewed as having that potential by some people here. It doesn’t even matter who they were.

There was good reason to be excited about him as a prospect. As Baffled said, no one predicted the 40-goals, but you can’t really predict that, but the opinion that he was a talented and high potential prospect? That he could turn into an equally talented and high caliber player? That was predicted. It just wasn’t consensus.

 

[Duck Off]

There is a very clear signal in the noise among the people that were naysayers and the people that thought that they should stick it out with Karlsson, back then. The latter were in that AHL thread regularly talking about the games that they saw him play at the lower level.

If I am wrong about Montour's future, then I will state now that I am wrong without any qualifier needed. I wasn't unlucky.

Admitting you were wrong? You must be new here

 

[Ducks DVM]

I’d forgotten we also jettisoned Borque in that trade.

Confirmed with Link: - Wisniewski and a 3rd for William Karlsson, Rene Bourque, and a 2nd

William ''Wild Bill'' Karlsson

I do wonder how things would have worked out if the trade had been Rakell instead. Rakell was garbage as a 3rd line center (still is) and has only been effective as a complementary player to Getzlaf and/or Perry (and has been a legitimate 1st line wing as a complementary player to those two). You’d think he would have also floundered in Columbus if they tried to use him as a wing. Conversely, Karlsson also only blossomed when given top line talent and time, and I’m not sure he would have been moved away from the 3C, so would he ever have gotten that here?

It’s possible this trade created two 1st line players who might otherwise have been borderline busts. I think I recall preferring WK but being ok with moving him because there was only room for one of them.

 

[Static]

There is a very clear signal in the noise among the people that were naysayers and the people that thought that they should stick it out with Karlsson, back then. The latter were in that AHL thread regularly talking about the games that they saw him play at the lower level.

If I am wrong about Montour's future, then I will state now that I am wrong without any qualifier needed. I wasn't unlucky.

That isn't a qualifier. The difference between some players busting and making it include factors that aren't talent. Karlsson became way more than I thought he ever would be, I was wrong on that. I still don't think he would have become that here, so I get why the trade was done. It's not black and white.

 

[Static]

I’d forgotten we also jettisoned Borque in that trade.

Confirmed with Link: - Wisniewski and a 3rd for William Karlsson, Rene Bourque, and a 2nd

William ''Wild Bill'' Karlsson

I do wonder how things would have worked out if the trade had been Rakell instead. Rakell was garbage as a 3rd line center (still is) and has only been effective as a complementary player to Getzlaf and/or Perry (and has been a legitimate 1st line wing as a complementary player to those two). You’d think he would have also floundered in Columbus if they tried to use him as a wing. Conversely, Karlsson also only blossomed when given top line talent and time, and I’m not sure he would have been moved away from the 3C, so would he ever have gotten that here?

It’s possible this trade created two 1st line players who might otherwise have been borderline busts. I think I recall preferring WK but being ok with moving him because there was only room for one of them.

That was the best team we ever had without Nieds on the roster. Going all in was good in my opinion, Freddy just crapped his pants and likely cost us a cup. If that doesn't happen I wonder if there are still grumblings about Karlsson. Probably, unless Wiz contributed in the finals somehow. Really unfortunate he never got healthy.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

There was a whole discussion once upon a time where we ended up comparing Karlsson and Rakell for the sake of who we preferred long-term. Rakell was the favorite for many, but some of us definitely had very, very high opinions of Karlsson.

It definitely isn’t lying. At least not by some. I don’t remember exactly who went one way or the other, but a lot of the arguments for him involved a great overall skill set, and a very high hockey IQ. If memory serves, Rakell was viewed as the more “natural” talent, but the people who liked Karlsson more thought his hockey smarts would allow him to utilize his talent better. Karlsson’s hockey smarts were a sticking point, at least for me, when it came to favoring him over Rakell.

Rakell was talked about as a potential first liner, so you can bet Karlsson was too, because a number of people liked him better.

No, no, I remember that well. I preferred Rakell, dont think I ever blamed anyone if they thought the opposite, I just remember thinking it was kind of outrageous to think Karlsson was on another level, which some did.

But that's besides the point. If you're basing it off his time in this organization, I totally understand. In Columbus, though, that's another story, and if anyone is saying they saw that there, I think they're lying. I'm saying it's not box score watching, he just wasn't that good.

I also dont think he's a first line player now, so there's that too.

 

[Trojans86]

There was a whole discussion once upon a time where we ended up comparing Karlsson and Rakell for the sake of who we preferred long-term. Rakell was the favorite for many, but some of us definitely had very, very high opinions of Karlsson.

It definitely isn’t lying. At least not by some. I don’t remember exactly who went one way or the other, but a lot of the arguments for him involved a great overall skill set, and a very high hockey IQ. If memory serves, Rakell was viewed as the more “natural” talent, but the people who liked Karlsson more thought his hockey smarts would allow him to utilize his talent better. Karlsson’s hockey smarts were a sticking point, at least for me, when it came to favoring him over Rakell.

Rakell was talked about as a potential first liner, so you can bet Karlsson was too, because a number of people liked him better.

Looking at the old thread when he was traded you were one of the few that didnt like the trade and thought he had a ton of upside. Well done.

 

[bsu]

I have a wild Bill rookie jersey signed by him on fan night....he was traded shortly after.... I knew he would be good. Stop reminding me.

 

[Sojourn]

Looking at the old thread when he was traded you were one of the few that didnt like the trade and thought he had a ton of upside. Well done.

To be fair, only part of that was due to my feelings towards Karlsson. I liked Karlsson a lot, but I also wasn’t a fan of Wisniewski. I always viewed him as one of those players with plenty of tools, and no toolbox to keep them in.

It wasn’t just that we moved Karlsson; it was who we moved him for. I’m willing to see any player traded, for the right trade.

 

[Paul4587]

No, no, I remember that well. I preferred Rakell, dont think I ever blamed anyone if they thought the opposite, I just remember thinking it was kind of outrageous to think Karlsson was on another level, which some did.

But that's besides the point. If you're basing it off his time in this organization, I totally understand. In Columbus, though, that's another story, and if anyone is saying they saw that there, I think they're lying. I'm saying it's not box score watching, he just wasn't that good.

I also dont think he's a first line player now, so there's that too.

Your second paragraph is wrong, myself and Exit were both paying attention to him in Columbus and both were vocal that we though he still had untapped potential and wasn’t being utilised correctly. Torts loved Dubinsky and spoon fed him ice time and back then Wennberg was putting up low end 1st line numbers so Karlsson was stuck behind those two.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Your second paragraph is wrong, myself and Exit were both paying attention to him in Columbus and both were vocal that we though he still had untapped potential and wasn’t being utilised correctly. Torts loved Dubinsky and spoon fed him ice time and back then Wennberg was putting up low end 1st line numbers so Karlsson was stuck behind those two.

I paid attention too, I stand by what I said.

 

[Paul4587]

I paid attention too, I stand by what I said.

So you think we were lying that we didn’t think he still had potential when he was with Columbus? There are posts to prove otherwise.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

So you think we were lying that we didn’t think he still had potential when he was with Columbus? There are posts to prove otherwise.

No I can easily believe you both and others posted about it during those years. What I don't believe is that anyone, myself included, watched nearly enough to see anything but things that confirm already held beliefs. The amount of hockey people watch that isn't their own team is always the biggest lie told or implied around these parts.

 

[Koffein]

Wasn't there an arbitration hearing that was rumored to be pretty ugly, early on in Murray's tenure?

Pretty sure that was Wiz during his first stint here. Recall Bob speaking out about in the media just after, not very happy, and shortly after sent him packing to NYI

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Pretty sure that was Wiz during his first stint here. Recall Bob speaking out about in the media just after, not very happy, and shortly after sent him packing to NYI

I believe they avoided the hearing, or at least the decision. I want to say the arbitration stuff is an overrated talking point but I can only think of like 3 examples of a player filing under Bob and two didn't end the best so I dunno.

But, Perreault didnt even get the chance to file so I dont know if you can even include him.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Bob's aversion to arbitration is a prime example of his old school ways. Nobody likes it, but it's part of the business today. You have to learn how to deal with it. Just moving players out because they may file does not send a good message to players in general.

 

[Exit Dose]

That isn't a qualifier. The difference between some players busting and making it include factors that aren't talent. Karlsson became way more than I thought he ever would be, I was wrong on that. I still don't think he would have become that here, so I get why the trade was done. It's not black and white.

You just think that you were unlucky. That's not the same thing as admitting that you were wrong.

 

[bracer028]

I feel smarter just because montour is off the team

 

[Static]

You just think that you were unlucky. That's not the same thing as admitting that you were wrong.

Ok.

 

[Exit Dose]

Pretty sure that was Wiz during his first stint here. Recall Bob speaking out about in the media just after, not very happy, and shortly after sent him packing to NYI

That would have been the right time frame. I remember Jeff Marek talking about how he had heard some nightmarish stories about what happens in those hearings, where the GMs and the player's agent basically have something not unlike a divorce hearing.