Confirmed with Link: [BUF/ANA] Brandon Montour for 2019 SJ 1st round pick and Brendan Guhle

[Deuce22]

The Wiz-Karlsson trade didn't work out well for the Ducks. Bottom line. You can rationalize and justify all you want, but in the end all that matters is what Wiz did for the Ducks and what Karlsson went on to be.

 

[Static]

What I saw at the lower levels was a player of that calibre. I and a couple of others caught **** for saying so; on par with a certain incident a little while back. That same handful of people would always voice how much they wished we had given up something else in that trade - this was before the breakout with Vegas. Just understanding how the team arrived at the conclusion that they did is not the same thing as approval. The one trade that I was psyched about that day was the one for Despres, because he was a standout in the AHL games that I had seen him in - I did not know that he'd pay off as early as he did.

People pointed out that Palmieri's production in Anaheim was identical to his production in New Jersey shortly after the trade, and all that changed was his ice time. I pointed out shortly before that trade happened that he easily had the best cost to benefit ratio because of his ability to produce in spite of the circumstances that he found himself in.

You seeing who that player could be and it happening is great, I never thought he could be this. I just completely resist the fact that all players can be their best selves with all teams, and that should affect evaluations of trades. Would karlsson have broken out that way playing behind Getzlaf and Kesler? I seriously doubt that.

I completely disagree with the assessment that it was poor evaluation on the part of our staff. Even if they thought he could become this they knew he would be getting third line minutes at best here for years, which would severely limit the chances of that breakout occurring. Columbus didn't even go that far with him. No other team stepped up to trade for him. So if our guys evaluated him incorrectly then so did the entire league, and I think it's strange then to start pointing fingers. I find that completely unfair.

Same thing with Montour. I hope he pans out, I really do. He got ample opportunity here to do it though.

 

[Static]

How on Earth did palmieri ride himself out of town?

That’s just made up fan speak to blame a young talented player who was searching for his consistency

Oh how people forget. He was searching for his effort level as well. That dude no-showed in the playoffs that year and that sealed his ticket. Then he found his drive in New Jersey with PP1 time, which he was never going to get here, and suddenly he was awesome again.

Murray's big mistake with that trade was the moronic justification he gave as his reasoning.

 

[Static]

It is funny to see some of the more knowledgeable posters express concern for the trade and other fans attacking them for having a different opinion. Some things never change around here.

It's not even that. People think it's a terrible move while others want to wait and see. It could be terrible, it could be great. It's not either of those right now.

 

[AngelDuck]

Oh how people forget. He was searching for his effort level as well. That dude no-showed in the playoffs that year and that sealed his ticket. Then he found his drive in New Jersey with PP1 time, which he was never going to get here, and suddenly he was awesome again.

Murray's big mistake with that trade was the moronic justification he gave as his reasoning.

I disagree he never could have gotten that PP time here. After Perry we didn’t have much at RW in terms of pure goal scorers at the time. I really don’t get that argument.

Keep in mind, I fully agree with you that Wild Bill wasn’t going to get the opportunity he got here

 

[Static]

I disagree he never could have gotten that PP time here. After Perry we didn’t have much at RW in terms of pure goal scorers at the time. I really don’t get that argument.

Keep in mind, I fully agree with you that Wild Bill wasn’t going to get the opportunity he got here

He was already averaging 1:43 a game on the PP his last season here, it's just hard to see him topping that with Perry on the roster. He added about a minute to that with jersey and his PP production doubled.

 

[Exit Dose]

You seeing who that player could be and it happening is great, I never thought he could be this. I just completely resist the fact that all players can be their best selves with all teams, and that should affect evaluations of trades. Would karlsson have broken out that way playing behind Getzlaf and Kesler? I seriously doubt that.

I completely disagree with the assessment that it was poor evaluation on the part of our staff. Even if they thought he could become this they knew he would be getting third line minutes at best here for years, which would severely limit the chances of that breakout occurring. Columbus didn't even go that far with him. No other team stepped up to trade for him. So if our guys evaluated him incorrectly then so did the entire league, and I think it's strange then to start pointing fingers, I find that completely unfair.

Same thing with Montour. I hope he pans out, I really do. He got ample opportunity here to do it though.

I think you are making assumptions based on knee jerk reactions. There is no reason why he couldn't have eventually broke out in time. It's pretty convenient that there's no ambiguity to your claims. There's never any allowance that you could just have been mistaken. The notion that you can't break out with third line minutes ignores a long history of players doing exactly that over the years, and frankly is a bit silly given how much ice time was being given to our third line prior to Carlyle's hiring. Teams overthink things all the time. Teams make mistakes all the time. The offense wizard didn't stop by to bestow talent on Karlsson when he showed up to play for the Knights. Those with character can admit that they're wrong without cooking up a convoluted excuse to never have to do it. Hopefully the people running the team do not operate that way.

Maybe their evaluation of Montour will prove to be the correct one, maybe the evaluation was tainted by bad coaching, or maybe it's going to prove to be a rash decision by a GM that did everything possible not to fire his friend, blaming the players entirely along the way, and threw a few players under the bus as scapegoats in the aftermath of the firing. Murray also said that the situation looked strange to people on the outside but that it will all make sense when everything is said and done, so maybe that will happen and all of this will be for naught.

We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Exit Dose]

Oh how people forget. He was searching for his effort level as well. That dude no-showed in the playoffs that year and that sealed his ticket. Then he found his drive in New Jersey with PP1 time, which he was never going to get here, and suddenly he was awesome again.

Murray's big mistake with that trade was the moronic justification he gave as his reasoning.

I would contend that using the pieces from that trade to land Hagelin was his biggest mistake.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

I saw a lot of potential in Karlsson and I am not at all surprised that he's a first line guy. Didn't see 40 goals but whatever, you can't predict 40 goals with real confidence for anyone imo.

 

[Static]

I think you are making assumptions based on knee jerk reactions. There is no reason why he couldn't have eventually broke out in time. It's pretty convenient that there's no ambiguity to your claims. There's never any allowance that you could just have been mistaken. The notion that you can't break out with third line minutes ignores a long history of players doing exactly that over the years, and frankly is a bit silly given how much ice time was being given to our third line prior to Carlyle's hiring. Teams overthink things all the time. Teams make mistakes all the time. The offense wizard didn't stop by to bestow talent on Karlsson when he showed up to play for the Knights. Those with character can admit that they're wrong without cooking up a convoluted excuse to never have to do it. Hopefully the people running the team do not operate that way.

Maybe their evaluation of Montour will prove to be the correct one, maybe the evaluation was tainted by bad coaching, or maybe it's going to prove to be a rash decision by a GM that did everything possible not to fire his friend, blaming the players entirely along the way, and threw a few players under the bus as scapegoats in the aftermath of the firing. Murray also said that the situation looked strange to people on the outside but that it will all make sense when everything is said and done, so maybe that will happen and all of this will be for naught.

We'll have to wait and see.

You seeing who that player could be and it happening is great, I never thought he could be this.

I admitted to being wrong right here. Guess I'm high character now.

We will have to disagree on karlsson. I don't think he would have turned into what he is now if he stayed because I believe opportunity and fit matter more than youre letting on.

Nobody is saying players just get more talented, in fact, the talent level across the board for NHL players is probably a lot closer than we think. The players who are more successful are those able to supplement that talent with everything else. I think opportunity is part of that equation.

Where I really disagree with you is the evaluation part. Our staff found these guys, if anyone believes in them and sees their upside it's them. I think much more goes into it than just having that in mind, and looking at the trade from a purely player upside view is a mistake.

 

[Duck Off]

The Wiz-Karlsson trade didn't work out well for the Ducks. Bottom line. You can rationalize and justify all you want, but in the end all that matters is what Wiz did for the Ducks and what Karlsson went on to be.

completely disagree with this logic. You're correct in that the trade didn't work out well, but I disagree entirely with your logic.

 

[Deuce22]

completely disagree with this logic. You're correct in that the trade didn't work out well, but I disagree entirely with your logic.

Logic in this case is just a smokescreen for whatever position you hold to. Logically, it wasn't a bad idea at the time to trade Karlsson for Wiz. But it didn't work. So screw the logic. It was a bad trade.

 

[Duck Off]

Oh how people forget. He was searching for his effort level as well. That dude no-showed in the playoffs that year and that sealed his ticket. Then he found his drive in New Jersey with PP1 time, which he was never going to get here, and suddenly he was awesome again.

Murray's big mistake with that trade was the moronic justification he gave as his reasoning.

Palmieri had more of an opportunity here than some think, but I don't think we ever had the ideal spot for him at ES. I honestly expected Palms to be traded that offseason, primarily because of the reasons you've mentioned. However, I expected him to be dealt for a more proven goal scorer.

Murray's justification was completely f***ed up, but my primary issue for that trade is when it happened. Going into that offseason Murray was pretty adamant that Perry and Getz had to be separated to spread out the scoring. Most of us kind of rolled our eyes, because we'd heard that before. Well low and behold, they actually meant it that time. Due to trading Palms and getting Hagelin (which is the last type of player we needed), we're starting Mike Santorelli or f***ing Chris Stewart on Getzlaf's RW. Do I think Palms would have performed as well as he did in NJ? Doubtful. But I damn sure think he would have been better than what we had, and would have had his best season as a Duck.

Murray managed to completely f*** up that offseason.

 

[Duck Off]

Logic in this case is just a smokescreen for whatever position you hold to. Logically, it wasn't a bad idea at the time to trade Karlsson for Wiz. But it didn't work. So screw the logic. It was a bad trade.

no, I'm just not using hindsight to prove I'm right all the time. I've had issues with Murray far longer than anyone else on this board. However, the reality is Murray had pressure to upgrade the top 4 because Ben Lovejoy was our best option. Yeah he could have made just the Lovejoy/Despres move, but if you're in his shoes, there's no way you can just make that trade when your team is a contender. Despres was very unproven. I guess I'd say I disagree more with the people who say we should have just made the Lovejoy/Despres move.

Your argument was being used by someone who said the Perry extension was a terrible idea from the moment it happened, and that we should have just traded him. End of Story. It's not that simple, and not a fair way to evaluate a GM IMO.

 

[Duck Off]

as far as Montour goes:

I disagree a bit with the hockey sense comments. He obviously didn't/doesn't exceed in that area, but IMO, his flaws seemed more about adjusting to the speed of the game. That's somewhat hockey sense related, but not the same thing IMO. I think we should have given him more time, because though the narrative that Carlyle is awful for defenseman is false, I do think he was a terrible coach for Montour. I really think the right coach can take him to the next step. Going to be hard to watch that if it happens.

Admittedly the biggest concern I had with Montour is he didn't seem to consistently get better at adjusting to the speed of the game since he's been a full timer. That said, I still think he could overcome it and be a clear top 4 RHD. If so, we didn't get enough.

 

[Exit Dose]

I admitted to being wrong right here. Guess I'm high character now.

We will have to disagree on karlsson. I don't think he would have turned into what he is now if he stayed because I believe opportunity and fit matter more than youre letting on.

Nobody is saying players just get more talented, in fact, the talent level across the board for NHL players is probably a lot closer than we think. The players who are more successful are those able to supplement that talent with everything else. I think opportunity is part of that equation.

Where I really disagree with you is the evaluation part. Our staff found these guys, if anyone believes in them and sees their upside it's them. I think much more goes into it than just having that in mind, and looking at the trade from a purely player upside view is a mistake.

You are not admitting that you were wrong or even that they were wrong. That very clearly isn't what you think, or you wouldn't have to throw so many caveats in afterwards.

 

[Deuce22]

no, I'm just not using hindsight to prove I'm right all the time. I've had issues with Murray far longer than anyone else on this board. However, the reality is Murray had pressure to upgrade the top 4 because Ben Lovejoy was our best option. Yeah he could have made just the Lovejoy/Despres move, but if you're in his shoes, there's no way you can just make that trade when your team is a contender. Despres was very unproven. I guess I'd say I disagree more with the people who say we should have just made the Lovejoy/Despres move.

Your argument was being used by someone who said the Perry extension was a terrible idea from the moment it happened, and that we should have just traded him. End of Story. It's not that simple, and not a fair way to evaluate a GM IMO.

I'm trying to simplify. Any trade can be justified for a variety of reasons. But only in hindsight can it be properly judged. Perry's extension may have seemed a good idea at the time, but it turned out that it wasn't. I'm not ripping BM for the Karlsson-Wiz trade, just trying to cut through all the noise and agendas.

 

[KyleJRM]

Results-oriented thinking is not correct. A good bet plays the odds, but doesn’t always win.

 

[Duck Off]

I'm trying to simplify. Any trade can be justified for a variety of reasons. But only in hindsight can it be properly judged. Perry's extension may have seemed a good idea at the time, but it turned out that it wasn't. I'm not ripping BM for the Karlsson-Wiz trade, just trying to cut through all the noise and agendas.

that makes more sense. If you're separating the two (GM evaluation and trade) than I can agree for the most part. Most people I have debated with over the years about that Wiz trade criticize Murray. Which again, IMO isn't fair when you consider the variables he was juggling then.

 

[Static]

You are not admitting that you were wrong or even that they were wrong. That very clearly isn't what you think, or you wouldn't have to throw so many caveats in afterwards.

What are you talking about? I can very well be wrong about the result and still understand and agree with the thinking that led to it. It isn't either/or.

 

[AngelDuck]

He was already averaging 1:43 a game on the PP his last season here, it's just hard to see him topping that with Perry on the roster. He added about a minute to that with jersey and his PP production doubled.

You don't think that maybe, just maybe, he just needed some more time to improve his game in areas? He was only 23 years old when he was moved out

Again, I don't understand why he couldn't have been added to the PP first unit along with Perry and getzlaf for years to come

 

[Static]

You don't think that maybe, just maybe, he just needed some more time to improve his game in areas? He was only 23 years old when he was moved out

Yep, I do agree. I think a good portion of that is on Palmieri though. Nobody has clean hands there.

Of all the off-season moves that year I'm most upset about muffins not even being qualified. Everything else I could at least follow the logic.

 

[Exit Dose]

There is a very clear signal in the noise among the people that were naysayers and the people that thought that they should stick it out with Karlsson, back then. The latter were in that AHL thread regularly talking about the games that they saw him play at the lower level.

If I am wrong about Montour's future, then I will state now that I am wrong without any qualifier needed. I wasn't unlucky.

 

[Getzmonster]

Hindsight works both ways. When a questionable trade goes bad, the folks that call it out are often dismissed as leaning on the benefit of hindsight. But when the trade works out for the better, the other half uses it as evidence that the GM made a good decision and is smarter than we think. I've always found that to be rather annoying and waters down the quality of the discussion (not just this forum, in general).

I'm not going to jump back into the debate over the Palms, Karlsson, etc., trades, but I do agree that this Montour trade has some odor on it and falls in line with the others. Not because of how the others turned out, but because at the time of the other trades it was clear that the risk of losing out on the pure talent might not be outweighed by the gains in other areas Murray was gambling on (financial, team chemistry, etc.). I'm just not thrilled with this return/exchange right now. Things working out for the better in the end won't reinforce some faith in Murray for me, I'll still question his decision making.

 

[Getzmonster]

Yep, I do agree. I think a good portion of that is on Palmieri though. Nobody has clean hands there.

Of all the off-season moves that year I'm most upset about muffins not even being qualified. Everything else I could at least follow the logic.

Seriously. Murray really doesn't **** around with arbitration. I'm terrified whenever that word is attached to one of our players.