Value of: Brayden Point Next Contract

[Starat327]

Both Radulov and Bergevin are on record saying that taxes were the difference between Dallas and Montreal. Radulov circled back to the Habs and ask the Habs to pay more due to the tax difference and Bergevin refused.

Tavares at $11M in Toronto = Stamkos at $8.5M in Tampa. Do you think Tavares is greedy for taking more money to play for the team he prefers vs Stamkos in Tampa? Let me guess, Tavares could of gotten more and he did take a pay cut right? Well, why didn't he do what Stamkos did then and take $8.5M AAV to keep the team competitive with more cap space? I'm sure he didn't care about taxes eh?

Patch rejects a deal to go to the Kings but accepts a deal to go to Vegas.

There are plenty of examples if you take your blind folds off. Also, you are correct, tax reporting for a athlete is much more complicated than a normal 8-5, mon-fri working person. What are you trying to say? The accountants in Tampa are more talented and clever than the accountants in Toronto?

Go somewhere else with your billionth time comment. How about you say it a billion more times... Do you think your opinion becomes a fact then? Come on man

Most of John Tavares' money is in the form of signing bonuses, which is subject to the tax rate in place of permanent residence (and a 15% Canadian tax, which could be used as a tax credit, if he files U.S taxes). For the purposes of taxes, its entirely feasible that John Tavares is a resident in the U.S. and 'lives' in Florida and avoids the 55 or whatever percent Toronto taxes entirely, only paying the Federal tax rate of the united states.

Its also fairly well documented that yes, the Islanders offered more money, as did the Sharks, so he took less money to play for the team he wanted to play for.

Also, Tavares at 11m being equal to Stamkos at 8.5m is some incredibly inept math.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Most of John Tavares' money is in the form of signing bonuses, which is subject to the tax rate in place of permanent residence (and a 15% Canadian tax, which could be used as a tax credit, if he files U.S taxes). For the purposes of taxes, its entirely feasible that John Tavares is a resident in the U.S. and 'lives' in Florida and avoids the 55 or whatever percent Toronto taxes entirely, only paying the Federal tax rate of the united states.

Its also fairly well documented that yes, the Islanders offered more money, as did the Sharks, so he took less money to play for the team he wanted to play for.

Also, Tavares at 11m being equal to Stamkos at 8.5m is some incredibly inept math.

It's very complicated and this is why you hire accountants to recommend certain strategies. Can Tavares fool both the US and Canadian governments into pretending his lives and earns a salary in Florida? I doubt it. Nice try. What a Accountant can do is limited. He can't change the State or Provence you work in. Everybody is taxed based on where you live. You can try to file taxes and change your primary address but cheating it to say you live in Florida? Well, you actually have to have evidence to prove that you live and earn a wage there. Playing a few games a year in Florida or going there for summer vacation don't count.

Tavares at $11M does equal Stamkos at $8.5M according to this website.... Tax Calculator | Gavin Group. They do have disclaimers but are you saying the Gavin group wasted their time putting this website together?

 

[Reddawg]

Most of John Tavares' money is in the form of signing bonuses, which is subject to the tax rate in place of permanent residence (and a 15% Canadian tax, which could be used as a tax credit, if he files U.S taxes). For the purposes of taxes, its entirely feasible that John Tavares is a resident in the U.S. and 'lives' in Florida and avoids the 55 or whatever percent Toronto taxes entirely, only paying the Federal tax rate of the united states.

Its also fairly well documented that yes, the Islanders offered more money, as did the Sharks, so he took less money to play for the team he wanted to play for.

Also, Tavares at 11m being equal to Stamkos at 8.5m is some incredibly inept math.

If Canadian tax law is anything like United States tax law, then you're taxed where you earn the money, not where your residence is.

If what you're alleging was possible (residence in Florida to avoid taxes) then this wouldn't even be a conversation because every pro athlete would have their mailing address in Florida, Texas, Nevada or Tennessee.

 

[Starat327]

If Canadian tax law is anything like United States tax law, then you're taxed where you earn the money, not where your residence is.

If what you're alleging was possible (residence in Florida to avoid taxes) then this wouldn't even be a conversation because every pro athlete would have their mailing address in Florida, Texas, Nevada or Tennessee.

Feel free to peruse.

John Tavares Could Save Nearly $12 Million In Taxes On His New Contract

 

[junyab]

Both Radulov and Bergevin are on record saying that taxes were the difference between Dallas and Montreal. Radulov circled back to the Habs and ask the Habs to pay more due to the tax difference and Bergevin refused.

Tavares at $11M in Toronto = Stamkos at $8.5M in Tampa. Do you think Tavares is greedy for taking more money to play for the team he prefers vs Stamkos in Tampa? Let me guess, Tavares could of gotten more and he did take a pay cut right? Well, why didn't he do what Stamkos did then and take $8.5M AAV to keep the team competitive with more cap space? I'm sure he didn't care about taxes eh?

Patch rejects a deal to go to the Kings but accepts a deal to go to Vegas.

There are plenty of examples if you take your blind folds off. Also, you are correct, tax reporting for a athlete is much more complicated than a normal 8-5, mon-fri working person. What are you trying to say? The accountants in Tampa are more talented and clever than the accountants in Toronto?

Go somewhere else with your billionth time comment. How about you say it a billion more times... Do you think your opinion becomes a fact then? Come on man

My "opinion" that taxes for professional athletes is quite complex is a fact, yes. Besides state tax of the state their team plays in, they must also take into consideration, residency (how many days of the year do they live in the city they play in), where they play their away games (because Stamkos doesn't pay Florida tax rates when they play games in different states, they pay the tax of that specific state for that game), citizenship, and tax deductibility of earnings.

In Canada, many athletes use Retirement Compensation Arrangements (RCAs) to defer income tax until they retire and to allow for greater tax deductions than athletes in the US can. This levels the playing field dramatically.

So when you just simply take a state tax rate and multiply it to their salary and use that as your basis for argument, it's asinine to think you will come up with a legitimate comparison to an athlete living and playing somewhere else.

 

[Starat327]

It's very complicated and this is why you hire accountants to recommend certain strategies. Can Tavares fool both the US and Canadian governments into pretending his lives and earns a salary in Florida? I doubt it. Nice try. What a Accountant can do is limited. He can't change the State or Provence you work in. Everybody is taxed based on where you live. You can try to file taxes and change your primary address but cheating it to say you live in Florida? Well, you actually have to have evidence to prove that you live and earn a wage there. Playing a few games a year in Florida or going there for summer vacation don't count.

Tavares at $11M does equal Stamkos at $8.5M according to this website.... Tax Calculator | Gavin Group. They do have disclaimers but are you saying the Gavin group wasted their time putting this website together?

He doesnt have to 'fool' anyone. He's probably already paying taxes as an american given his lengthy stay in New York. It would be extremely easy for him to 'move' to Florida, and rent a place in toronto. All he would have to do is spend the offseason in Florida, which isnt terribly far-fetched.

 

[Starat327]

My "opinion" that taxes for professional athletes is quite complex is a fact, yes. Besides state tax of the state their team plays in, they must also take into consideration, residency (how many days of the year do they live in the city they play in), where they play their away games (because Stamkos doesn't pay Florida tax rates when they play games in different states, they pay the tax of that specific state for that game), citizenship, and tax deductibility of earnings.

In Canada, many athletes use Retirement Compensation Arrangements (RCAs) to defer income tax until they retire and to allow for greater tax deductions than athletes in the US can. This levels the playing field dramatically.

So when you just simply take a state tax rate and multiply it to their salary and use that as your basis for argument, it's asinine to think you will come up with a legitimate comparison to an athlete living and playing somewhere else.

Why take the time to understand something when you can just regurgitate tired rhetoric?

 

[DistantThunderRep]

I have 3 players who took lower AAV contracts in a city with less taxes vs most other NHL cities. What? Are you saying Matthews and Tavares and evenutally Marner are greedy and don't want to take pay cuts to stay with the team? Let me guess, Hedman, Stamkos, and Kucherov like Tampa more than Tavares, Matthews, and Marner like Toronto?

What is the difference in clear take home pay between Stamkos at $8.5M in Tampa vs Tavares at $11M in Toronto? It's like a few $100k. Coincidental or are you still in denial?

Wake up from your dream buddy. It's a fact that there is a tax advantage in the state of Florida

Same exists in Dallas, Nashville, Vegas, Florida, and soon to be Seattle. Do you see any other team signing players at a tax discount? The constant factor in Tampa is the players want to be there and play and willing to take less money. There is more evidence proving that Taxes don't make a difference when you look at 4 out of the 5 teams in the league and realize that their players took 0 discounts (Maybe Karlsson in Vegas).

 

[DistantThunderRep]

If Canadian tax law is anything like United States tax law, then you're taxed where you earn the money, not where your residence is.

If what you're alleging was possible (residence in Florida to avoid taxes) then this wouldn't even be a conversation because every pro athlete would have their mailing address in Florida, Texas, Nevada or Tennessee.

It's majority to do with residence. Tavares basically escaped most of his taxes because his primary residence is in the states. The real scam in the league is endorsement gains and player staff wages not being accounted for in the cap.

 

[Starat327]

It's majority to do with residence. Tavares basically escaped most of his taxes because his primary residence is in the states. The real scam in the league is endorsement gains and player staff wages not being accounted for in the cap.

Oh no you didn't.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Oh no you didn't.

Those only benefit big market teams and big time players. Numbers aren't ever released and with proof of how Toronto brought CEO's and the frikkin Mayor to a meeting to sign a player.

Prove me wrong Big Market fans.

 

[Reddawg]

Feel free to peruse.

John Tavares Could Save Nearly $12 Million In Taxes On His New Contract

Wow, okay...thanks for the article. I had no idea. That's quite the clever little workaround on his agent's part. I assumed the bonus portions of his contract were to make it lockout proof.

 

[Starat327]

Those only benefit big market teams and big time players. Numbers aren't ever released and with proof of how Toronto brought CEO's and the frikkin Mayor to a meeting to sign a player.

Prove me wrong Big Market fans.

Oh, im on your side here. I've just seen how this goes too many times (im sure you have as well) to not know what comes next.

 

[Starat327]

Wow, okay...thanks for the article. I had no idea. That's quite the clever little workaround on his agent's part. I assumed the bonus portions of his contract were to make it lockout proof.

Sure thing. Its not exactly foolproof - I mean he does have to establish residency in Florida (which, as the article states, isnt as simple as just buying a house), but its certainly a manageable list of to dos. Since the context of the conversation is "florida signs everyone for cheap because of taxes, taxes are a big deal!!", it would stand to reason that a player not signed in Florida would make the effort to save tax money as well, I would think.

 

[Saidin]

Feel free to peruse.

John Tavares Could Save Nearly $12 Million In Taxes On His New Contract

And in my opinion, this is why they'll be a lock out again... (Bonus money)

 

[Starat327]

And in my opinion, this is why they'll be a lock out again... (Bonus money)

Among other things, yeah, most likely.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

And in my opinion, this is why they'll be a lock out again... (Bonus money)

Then why are the leafs, right now, still paying so much more for comparable players than teams like Tampa?

I thought it was all about taxes? I thought it wasn't Dubas' fault?

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Then why are the leafs, right now, still paying so much more for comparable players than teams like Tampa?

I thought it was all about taxes? I thought it wasn't Dubas' fault?

Because Toronto's GM is a terrible negotiator and its no one else's fault Toronto's rabid fanbase screams like a child having a temper tantrum when they don't sign a high end UFA. But apparently its Tampa's fault.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

And in my opinion, this is why they'll be a lock out again... (Bonus money)

Bonus money is bad, but what is worse is that bonus money also screws other states and provinces out of income. Places with a hockey team don't generate revenue in Jock Tax when players show up. It's not major money but its money nevertheless.

Same with Endorsements. Endorsement money isn't tracked by the cap.

 

[AndreRoy]

Can we please have one thread where fans of mediocre teams can whine about taxes so that every single thread about the Lightning doesn’t devolve into the same nonsense?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Because Toronto's GM is a terrible negotiator and its no one else's fault Toronto's rabid fanbase screams like a child having a temper tantrum when they don't sign a high end UFA. But apparently its Tampa's fault.

Tampa fans themselves seem pretty divided about this. They keep telling me Point will make far less than Marner due to the whole taxes thing.

 

[AndreRoy]

Tampa fans themselves seem pretty divided about this. They keep telling me Point will make far less than Marner due to the whole taxes thing.

They’re wrong. If it were about taxes then why don’t all the Lightning’s free agents sign below market value? People talk about Stamkos, Hedman, and Kucherov, but what about Callahan, Palat, Johnson, Killorn, Gourde, Filppula, Garrison, et. al.? Why only three players who arguably left money on the table? And given that the cap’s been around since 2005, why did this become an issue only after Stamkos spurned the Leafs to stay in Tampa over a decade later? Certainly sounds more like Toronto fans and media whining than anything else.

 

[Rschmitz]

Tampa fans themselves seem pretty divided about this. They keep telling me Point will make far less than Marner due to the whole taxes thing.

Are you sure you aren't taking what Tampa fans have said out of context?

 

[dechire]

Tampa fans themselves seem pretty divided about this. They keep telling me Point will make far less than Marner due to the whole taxes thing.

No we keep saying that Point will take less because the Lightning don't give out ridiculous contracts and the Leafs do. Nothing to do with taxes. Everything to do with Tavares and Matthews.

 

[AndreRoy]

Ultimately we’ll pay Point whatever it takes to get the deal done, but realistically I don’t see him making more than Kucherov on his next contract. Yes, Point has put up better numbers on his ELC than Kuch did, and should get a better deal coming off it. But at the same time Kuch accepted a bridge deal before getting his current one and he’s leading the league in scoring this season; as great as Point is it would be a slap in the face to Kucherov to give him more money on his first RFA contract than Kuch is making on his second.

So IMO the likely range for Point’s next contract is between Kucherov’s bridge deal and his current one; if Point wants more than that on his long term deal then most likely he’ll take a three-year bridge (which would also help the team by giving us a little more breathing room against the cap for the next few years) and then make beaucoup bucks when Palat comes off the books. Again, if Point wants to play hardball and insists on more then we’ll give it to him, but he has a reputation as a team-first guy who is very respectful of the older stars on the team and his agent has already said he’s willing to take whatever length of deal the team wants. So I’d say something like $6.5M-$7M x 3 years followed by a long term deal at >$10M.