Bouwmeester in Chicago

[Liquidrage*]

Do people still think Bouwmeester is a mile ahead of Pitkanen?

It's always bounced back and forth..

In the beginning there was
Bouwmeester >> Pitkanen
Then, after Pitkanen's WJ's there was
Bouwmeester > Pitkanen
Then Bouwmeester went to the NHL and Pitkanen stayed in Europe and it was
Bouwmeester >> Pitkanen
Then Pitkanen came over and played incredible for the first 20 games or so and it was
Pitkanen > Bouwmeester
Then Pitkanen tailed off and it was
Bouwmeester > Pitkanen
Then Bouwmeester got to play on an all star team and it was
Bouwmeester >> Pitkanen
Then the AHL season came and it's been
Bouwmeester > Pitkanen or Pitkanen > Bouwmeester depending on how they played in the most recent game.

Overall, they've been overly-hyped as of now, but they are defensemen and judging them at their current age based on their play in the NHL and AHL isn't really a great gauge of what they will become. Jay hasn't shown any real brillance at the NHL level and Pitkanen lost all confidence before Xmas and never got it back. Hell, Hamhuis looked better then either last year but he's got a few years on them so again it's hard to compare.

 

[FlyersFan10*]

It's always bounced back and forth..

In the beginning there was
Bouwmeester >> Pitkanen
Then, after Pitkanen's WJ's there was
Bouwmeester > Pitkanen
Then Bouwmeester went to the NHL and Pitkanen stayed in Europe and it was
Bouwmeester >> Pitkanen
Then Pitkanen came over and played incredible for the first 20 games or so and it was
Pitkanen > Bouwmeester
Then Pitkanen tailed off and it was
Bouwmeester > Pitkanen
Then Bouwmeester got to play on an all star team and it was
Bouwmeester >> Pitkanen
Then the AHL season came and it's been
Bouwmeester > Pitkanen or Pitkanen > Bouwmeester depending on how they played in the most recent game.

Overall, they've been overly-hyped as of now, but they are defensemen and judging them at their current age based on their play in the NHL and AHL isn't really a great gauge of what they will become. Jay hasn't shown any real brillance at the NHL level and Pitkanen lost all confidence before Xmas and never got it back. Hell, Hamhuis looked better then either last year but he's got a few years on them so again it's hard to compare.

I say give them each another year or two and we'll really watch the two of them grow into their positions and dominate. Chris Pronger wasn't a great defenseman right off the bat either. Defensemen always take awhile to develop. If you have something real special, you don't rush it along. I'll give Florida and Philadelphia props for the way they are developing the two.

However, I believe that each should have spent a year in the AHL at the very start of their pro career. Nothing wrong with learning the pro game first before making the jump.

 

[dancingtree]

0 points in 10 playoff games for Jay-Bo

 

[Wally112pac]

I have no idea what role Jbo is playing but he's 2nd on the team with a +7 in 10 games.

 

[Lauser3*]

I have no idea what role Jbo is playing but he's 2nd on the team with a +7 in 10 games.

Can we say overrated? Bouwmeester has actually gone 16 games now without a point...his last point was a secondary assist in the regular season. Even Chicago's enforcer has scored a goal AND an assist thus far. Great offensive defenseman we have here...and please save the "he's only 21 years old remarks" because so is Pitkanen, and "he plays on a bad team" since he's playing with the Wolves/Thrashers now and not the Rampage/Panthers.

As for the mention of the +7, the +/- stat is the biggest BS stat in the game. All that means is that he's been on the ice for 7 more goals scored for than against Chicago. So he doesn't really need to do anything to get credit either way, just be on the ice. It has nothing to do with how well he's played defensively...for example, Pavel Bure was a +42 in his career...does that mean he was good defensively then too? Come on now...the guy is supposed to be an offensive defenseman which means he needs to put up points AND play good defense. He's not putting up points like he's supposed to so he's not doing what's expected of him. Period. Laters.

 

[Fighter]

Can we say overrated? Bouwmeester has actually gone 16 games now without a point...his last point was a secondary assist in the regular season. Even Chicago's enforcer has scored a goal AND an assist thus far. Great offensive defenseman we have here...and please save the "he's only 21 years old remarks" because so is Pitkanen, and "he plays on a bad team" since he's playing with the Wolves/Thrashers now and not the Rampage/Panthers.

As for the mention of the +7, the +/- stat is the biggest BS stat in the game. All that means is that he's been on the ice for 7 more goals scored for than against Chicago. So he doesn't really need to do anything to get credit either way, just be on the ice. It has nothing to do with how well he's played defensively...for example, Pavel Bure was a +42 in his career...does that mean he was good defensively then too? Come on now...the guy is supposed to be an offensive defenseman which means he needs to put up points AND play good defense. He's not putting up points like he's supposed to so he's not doing what's expected of him. Period. Laters.

Well, harsh post but it's exactly what I think too

 

[MS]

+7 does tell you that he's finding a way to be effective one way or another.

I remember saying over and over again on these boards in his draft year that his puck sense in the offensive zone was severely limited, that he wouldn't be a first-unit PP guy in pro, and that he'd probably be 25-35 point #2 defender in his prime, and I took no end of heat for it. I wish the archived posts hadn't been deleted.

He just doesn't have the mentality to be a #1 defender. Never has. He has the skills of a #1, but the mindset of a Scott Lachance type - he's just not a take-charge guy at either end of the rink, and is much more comfortable as the complementary guy on a defense pairing to a more dynamic guy, where he can just quietly do his job. Same sort of mentality as Eric Brewer, another guy who's more comfortable in a complementary role in international play than with the responsibilities of the alpha guy in Edmonton.

He'll probably become under-rated here now as people decide he's crap because he can't score points.

 

[Master Shake*]

+7 does tell you that he's finding a way to be effective one way or another.

I remember saying over and over again on these boards in his draft year that his puck sense in the offensive zone was severely limited, that he wouldn't be a first-unit PP guy in pro, and that he'd probably be 25-35 point #2 defender in his prime, and I took no end of heat for it. I wish the archived posts hadn't been deleted.

He just doesn't have the mentality to be a #1 defender. Never has. He has the skills of a #1, but the mindset of a Scott Lachance type - he's just not a take-charge guy at either end of the rink, and is much more comfortable as the complementary guy on a defense pairing to a more dynamic guy, where he can just quietly do his job. Same sort of mentality as Eric Brewer, another guy who's more comfortable in a complementary role in international play than with the responsibilities of the alpha guy in Edmonton.

He'll probably become under-rated here now as people decide he's crap because he can't score points.

I agree with this post alot
The funny part is the guy drafted after Bouwmeester and Pitkanen will turn out better then both. Ryan Whitney.IMO.

 

[Wally112pac]

Can we say overrated? Bouwmeester has actually gone 16 games now without a point...his last point was a secondary assist in the regular season. Even Chicago's enforcer has scored a goal AND an assist thus far. Great offensive defenseman we have here...and please save the "he's only 21 years old remarks" because so is Pitkanen, and "he plays on a bad team" since he's playing with the Wolves/Thrashers now and not the Rampage/Panthers.

As for the mention of the +7, the +/- stat is the biggest BS stat in the game. All that means is that he's been on the ice for 7 more goals scored for than against Chicago. So he doesn't really need to do anything to get credit either way, just be on the ice. It has nothing to do with how well he's played defensively...for example, Pavel Bure was a +42 in his career...does that mean he was good defensively then too? Come on now...the guy is supposed to be an offensive defenseman which means he needs to put up points AND play good defense. He's not putting up points like he's supposed to so he's not doing what's expected of him. Period. Laters.

You should change your name to Jbocan'tdoanythingrightandi'llgotoanylenghttoputhimdown3.

 

[Lauser3*]

Nah...too long. People wouldn't be able to respond directly by using my username then. Besides, I'll be the first to give credit when credit is due (or eat crow or whatever), but until then, he's an underperforming highly touted 1st rounder. Laters.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

Can we say overrated? Bouwmeester has actually gone 16 games now without a point...his last point was a secondary assist in the regular season. Even Chicago's enforcer has scored a goal AND an assist thus far. Great offensive defenseman we have here...and please save the "he's only 21 years old remarks" because so is Pitkanen, and "he plays on a bad team" since he's playing with the Wolves/Thrashers now and not the Rampage/Panthers.

As for the mention of the +7, the +/- stat is the biggest BS stat in the game. All that means is that he's been on the ice for 7 more goals scored for than against Chicago. So he doesn't really need to do anything to get credit either way, just be on the ice. It has nothing to do with how well he's played defensively...for example, Pavel Bure was a +42 in his career...does that mean he was good defensively then too? Come on now...the guy is supposed to be an offensive defenseman which means he needs to put up points AND play good defense. He's not putting up points like he's supposed to so he's not doing what's expected of him. Period. Laters.

You're using stats to help justify your position that he's overated?? Stats only tell half the story. How many games have you seen of Bouwmeester's in the AHL and particularly in Chicago? My guess...none. The reason I point this out is because maybe, just maybe, not everything is what it seems. Maybe Bouwmeester is making solid outlet passes, starting the rush, etc but not getting points because Chicago is playing a good team game (making the extra pass to the open player). Maybe Chicago's coach is having Bouwmeester stay back a bit more to allow Roche to contribute more on the offensive end. So your opinion that he's overated based on stats is obviously not informed enough to take as being credible.

And just because YOU think he's an offensive defensemen doesn't mean that's what he is and/or will become. When I think of the term "offensive defensemen", I keep thinking of players like Tom Poti, Sandis Ozolinsh, Sergei Gonchar, etc. The only way for those other players to be really effective is to play a more offensive role. And they may produce offense but for the most part are a big liability in the defensive zone. I just can't see Bouwmeester in the same light as those players. I've made mention of it before but he reminds me of a taller Scott Niedermayer (not overly physical, amazing speed, good vision and hockey sense). And Niedermayer seems like he's too offensive of a comparison for Bouwmeester to me.

And the plus/minus stat is misleading but not BS. For defensemen, plus/minus is often the stat used to judge the ability in their own zone. Using plus/minus to judge a forward's defensive prowess is difficult and can often be BS. Mike Peca was a -4 in 2002-03 and I think most people would say that he's an extremely good defensive player (the flip side of your Pavel Bure example). And yes using plus/minus for an offensive defensemen is also tough to judge their defensive prowess. But you said that he's suppose to be an offensive defensemen and play good defense? Those 2 things contradict one another a lot of times. And you say that because he's not putting up points, he's not doing what's expected of him. Maybe its just you that expects him to be putting up huge points...doesn't seem like Florida's management is that concerned, does it? Regardless, one of the biggest things coming out of the draft was his shyness...not his size, speed, offensive ability, etc. that would determine when he would break-through. Eventually, he'll become more comfortable and he'll become one of the better OVERALL defensemen in the league.

 

[Lauser3*]

You're using stats to help justify your position that he's overated?? Stats only tell half the story. How many games have you seen of Bouwmeester's in the AHL and particularly in Chicago? My guess...none. The reason I point this out is because maybe, just maybe, not everything is what it seems. Maybe Bouwmeester is making solid outlet passes, starting the rush, etc but not getting points because Chicago is playing a good team game (making the extra pass to the open player). Maybe Chicago's coach is having Bouwmeester stay back a bit more to allow Roche to contribute more on the offensive end. So your opinion that he's overated based on stats is obviously not informed enough to take as being credible.

And just because YOU think he's an offensive defensemen doesn't mean that's what he is and/or will become. When I think of the term "offensive defensemen", I keep thinking of players like Tom Poti, Sandis Ozolinsh, Sergei Gonchar, etc. The only way for those other players to be really effective is to play a more offensive role. And they may produce offense but for the most part are a big liability in the defensive zone. I just can't see Bouwmeester in the same light as those players. I've made mention of it before but he reminds me of a taller Scott Niedermayer (not overly physical, amazing speed, good vision and hockey sense). And Niedermayer seems like he's too offensive of a comparison for Bouwmeester to me.

And the plus/minus stat is misleading but not BS. For defensemen, plus/minus is often the stat used to judge the ability in their own zone. Using plus/minus to judge a forward's defensive prowess is difficult and can often be BS. Mike Peca was a -4 in 2002-03 and I think most people would say that he's an extremely good defensive player (the flip side of your Pavel Bure example). And yes using plus/minus for an offensive defensemen is also tough to judge their defensive prowess. But you said that he's suppose to be an offensive defensemen and play good defense? Those 2 things contradict one another a lot of times. And you say that because he's not putting up points, he's not doing what's expected of him. Maybe its just you that expects him to be putting up huge points...doesn't seem like Florida's management is that concerned, does it? Regardless, one of the biggest things coming out of the draft was his shyness...not his size, speed, offensive ability, etc. that would determine when he would break-through. Eventually, he'll become more comfortable and he'll become one of the better OVERALL defensemen in the league.

Actually, I've caught a few games with him in Chicago. None in San Antonio unfortunately. I've caught plenty of him in Florida too by the way. Can you say the same? I didn't think so.

Just for the record though...I don't expect huge points from Bouwmeester, but I sure as hell expect more than 2 or 4 goals per season and 6 total in 146 NHL games since he was averaging about 13 goals in Juniors. Especially when enforcers are scoring more than him. He's a projected No. 1 defenseman...No. 1 defenseman put up points. Period. He was expected to step up and basically replace Ozolinsh afterall...Ozo put up points and it was hoped Jaystine would fill the void. It sure wasn't expected for Biron, Lilja, Trnka, Majesky and company to put up those kinds of points right? And he sure as hell isn't a defensive defenseman either; that's for damn sure. He'd be the softest defensive defenseman in league history then. haha. Laters.

 

[Wally112pac]

Just for the record though...I don't expect huge points from Bouwmeester, but I sure as hell expect more than 2 or 4 goals per season and 6 total in 146 NHL games since he was averaging about 13 goals in Juniors.

You're expecting too much too fast.

This KID has played 2 NHL seasons as a 19 and 20 year old.

He's not goin to put up a lot of points at such a young age. The points will come in a few years.

But if you really need points from a teenager i don't understand how you can't see an improvement already.

Year 1: 82 games, 16 points
Year 2: 61 games, 20 points

 

[Jacob]

You're expecting too much too fast.

This KID has played 2 NHL seasons as a 19 and 20 year old.

He's not goin to put up a lot of points at such a young age. The points will come in a few years.

But did anyone expect him to struggle to produce in the AHL? I know in the scheme of things the AHL doesn't really matter so long as he produces in the NHL, but still, he should really be dominating offensively.

His production went DOWN this year from what it was in the NHL last season. And some of his own teammates elluded to him coming down to the AHL with a poor attitude.

 

[dancingtree]

0 points in 11 playoff games!
At least he got a penalty.

 

[Lauser3*]

0 points in 11 playoff games!
At least he got a penalty.

17 AHL games without a point and counting now.

 

[Lauser3*]

You're expecting too much too fast.

This KID has played 2 NHL seasons as a 19 and 20 year old.

He's not goin to put up a lot of points at such a young age. The points will come in a few years.

But if you really need points from a teenager i don't understand how you can't see an improvement already.

Year 1: 82 games, 16 points
Year 2: 61 games, 20 points

He's now a 21 year old (22 this year) with 3 years of pro with playoff experience now and struggling to produce points at the AHL level. Not even a secondary assist even. He's the last player on the team to have played over 10 playoff games (11 really) and still have no points. Put it this way, BOTH goaltenders have assists; rookie defenseman Braydon Coburn (turned 20 in February) has a point already and he only has 14 pro games under his belt. The only other guy on Chicago to have no points is tough guy Stephen Baby...but he's only played in 2 playoff games. Inexcusable.

Furthermore, considering that 12 of Bouwmeester's assists in the NHL were secondary assists, mearning he only really had to be one of the last guys to touch the puck before it was scored to get credit...and his numbers haven't improved. In fact, they've pretty much stayed the same (point-wise at least)...4 goals and 8 (first) assists for 12 points in 2002-03 and 2 goals and 10 (first) assists for 12 points in 2003-04. This is all in 143 games...24 earned points. That's impressive or improvement, to you? You must have really low standards for prospects I guess...but even highly touted 1st rounders? Come on now. Laters.

 

[Freaky Habs Fan]

I don't think Jay have a great attitude. He was really good last year at the WJ but after that . San Antonio was a really bad team so he should have step up and give everything for that team because with Weiss, he was the best player. Then, he was mooved to Chicago, one of the best team of the AHL and it seem to be worst than in San Antonio...weird

 

[BabyBennettov]

Okay it's kind of getting personnal now so I'll have to enter the debate !

Attitude problems ???

Come on ! You are crying out loud because he doesn't produce in the playoffs, but where were you when he putted up a point and near a goal per game in his first ten games with the Wolves ? I don't remember seeing any thread with any mention of it ?

So know that the kid is one of the leaders in +/- as a defenseman, playing with a team going to the Calder Cup (so he'll have a chance to win AGAIN some prizes) and racking up a PIM per game (well it's not a lot but for Jay, I don't know if it means he is more involved...) and he doesn't rack up points make you all worry ?

Jay was drafted as a superior talent, he is that superior talent, and we all know he needs to take it all, but don't come to me and say the guy was overrated bla bla bla...

I think that everybody that saw him in juniors, or with Team Canada, or with the Panthers will say the same as me... You must have not see a game where Jay goes for it... I can't think about something else, when you talk about Jay, then those incredible rushes where he goes end-to-end, goal-to-goal just to see one of those stupid teammates breaking up the play !

The kid will be 22 ? Well... whatever does he have to dominate at 22 ? You know I'll keep Jay Bouwmeester for another 3 years, everyday of the week and twice on Sunday, rather than having to cry every night by seeing him perform under another jersey like Pronger, Jovocop and all those kind of examples !

P.S.: I'm not saying the kid is good today 'cause I'm not seeing him... Maybe he plays that bad, but I just want those stupid people talking about attitude problems to stop, because if I remember correctly, it was in a Hockey News, some guy named Bobby Orr said: "If I had to go to war, I'll take Jay on my team !" or something along those lines me think ! I'll rather take those comments and what I see, instead of the hard criticism of HF posters against those young guys who don't progress as expected ! Every kid is different, and for every Rick Nash, you'll have a Martin Saint-Louis...

 

[Wally112pac]

He's now a 21 year old (22 this year) with 3 years of pro with playoff experience now and struggling to produce points at the AHL level. Not even a secondary assist even. He's the last player on the team to have played over 10 playoff games (11 really) and still have no points. Put it this way, BOTH goaltenders have assists; rookie defenseman Braydon Coburn (turned 20 in February) has a point already and he only has 14 pro games under his belt. The only other guy on Chicago to have no points is tough guy Stephen Baby...but he's only played in 2 playoff games. Inexcusable.

Furthermore, considering that 12 of Bouwmeester's assists in the NHL were secondary assists, mearning he only really had to be one of the last guys to touch the puck before it was scored to get credit...and his numbers haven't improved. In fact, they've pretty much stayed the same (point-wise at least)...4 goals and 8 (first) assists for 12 points in 2002-03 and 2 goals and 10 (first) assists for 12 points in 2003-04. This is all in 143 games...24 earned points. That's impressive or improvement, to you? You must have really low standards for prospects I guess...but even highly touted 1st rounders? Come on now. Laters.

"You should change your name to Jbocan'tdoanythingrightandi'llgotoanylenghttoputhi mdown3."

I'm not taking anyones stats this year seriously.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

Hmm...points in the playoffs or Calder Cup? points in the playoffs or CALDER CUP? I'd take rather see a Calder Cup for Bouwmeester.

 

[MojoJojo]

As for the mention of the +7, the +/- stat is the biggest BS stat in the game. All that means is that he's been on the ice for 7 more goals scored for than against Chicago. So he doesn't really need to do anything to get credit either way, just be on the ice. It has nothing to do with how well he's played defensively...for example, Pavel Bure was a +42 in his career...does that mean he was good defensively then too? Come on now...the guy is supposed to be an offensive defenseman which means he needs to put up points AND play good defense. He's not putting up points like he's supposed to so he's not doing what's expected of him. Period. Laters.

For the +- stat to make any sense, it has to be over a large number of games (at least 100), and has to be compared to the teams stats. A -2 is a lot better on a team with an average of -15, than a +2 on a team that averages a +15. There are statistical analyises which take into account these differences, and throw in the teams goalie stats and minutes played. It is a misconception that the stat shows defensive awareness. Obviously Pavel Bure ia a poor backchecker, but overall his presence on the ice was a net benefitt for his team. He generated so much offense, the opposition had to match their checking line against him and guard against the breakaway.


For J Bo, as with all defensemen, you have to actually watch how they play before you can make any conclusions about them. If he is laying down the punishment in front of the crease, making good decisions with the puck, killing penalties, winning battles in the corners, blockng shots, etc., then he is doing his job. Offensive is nice, but is really of secondary importance for defensemen. In the NHL, I was not impressed with him, but then again he was pretty young and raw, so I am willing to give him the benefitt of the doubt and say he is still developing.

edit: Pitkanen still > J-Bo

 

[Lauser3*]

Hmm...points in the playoffs or Calder Cup? points in the playoffs or CALDER CUP? I'd take rather see a Calder Cup for Bouwmeester.

Stanley Cup or Calder Cup? STANLEY CUP or calder cup? Hmmm.....let me think this one out. Please man, it's one excuse after the other for this guy...he's underperformed at the NHL, and now at the AHL. Period. So he's only 21? Well, so is Pitkanen and his point production hasn't seemed to falter and Jaystine's on a better AHL team so the excuse of him playing on a better team than Jaystine doesn't fly anymore so save it.

 

[Lauser3*]

"You should change your name to Jbocan'tdoanythingrightandi'llgotoanylenghttoputhi mdown3."

I'm not taking anyones stats this year seriously.

Gee, there's a surprise.

 

[Lauser3*]

Okay it's kind of getting personnal now so I'll have to enter the debate !

Attitude problems ???

Come on ! You are crying out loud because he doesn't produce in the playoffs, but where were you when he putted up a point and near a goal per game in his first ten games with the Wolves ? I don't remember seeing any thread with any mention of it ?

So know that the kid is one of the leaders in +/- as a defenseman, playing with a team going to the Calder Cup (so he'll have a chance to win AGAIN some prizes) and racking up a PIM per game (well it's not a lot but for Jay, I don't know if it means he is more involved...) and he doesn't rack up points make you all worry ?

Jay was drafted as a superior talent, he is that superior talent, and we all know he needs to take it all, but don't come to me and say the guy was overrated bla bla bla...

I think that everybody that saw him in juniors, or with Team Canada, or with the Panthers will say the same as me... You must have not see a game where Jay goes for it... I can't think about something else, when you talk about Jay, then those incredible rushes where he goes end-to-end, goal-to-goal just to see one of those stupid teammates breaking up the play !

The kid will be 22 ? Well... whatever does he have to dominate at 22 ? You know I'll keep Jay Bouwmeester for another 3 years, everyday of the week and twice on Sunday, rather than having to cry every night by seeing him perform under another jersey like Pronger, Jovocop and all those kind of examples !

P.S.: I'm not saying the kid is good today 'cause I'm not seeing him... Maybe he plays that bad, but I just want those stupid people talking about attitude problems to stop, because if I remember correctly, it was in a Hockey News, some guy named Bobby Orr said: "If I had to go to war, I'll take Jay on my team !" or something along those lines me think ! I'll rather take those comments and what I see, instead of the hard criticism of HF posters against those young guys who don't progress as expected ! Every kid is different, and for every Rick Nash, you'll have a Martin Saint-Louis...

The only thing Bouwmeester has proven is that he'll probably be a Lady Byng nominee in the future. I sure hope you're not even comparing Jovanovski and Pronger to Bouwmeester here? He's NO WHERE near their league and never will be...both those guys put up much better points as youngsters than Jaystine has. And have continued to improve their games. Bouwmeester hasn't done this and he's already into his 4th pro season (technically) since the regular season is over. Wasn't Bobby Orr (an agent now) trying to sign Bouwmeester at that point? Gee, I wonder why he was praising the kid so much. So what if Jaystine can skate...so can a lot of figure skaters, but that won't keep him in the NHL for long if he can't put up the points to go with that skating ability. Laters.