Bouwmeester in Chicago

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Vlad The Impaler

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saillias said:
Pretty much agreed with lauser about Bouwmeester. Season after season he continues to dissapoint yet his expectations are never lowered... He's just too passive. He doesn't carry a team, he plays at its level. It's not helping him either that he keeps on getting rewarded for doing nothing. World Cup... WCs, AHL all-star game, being loaned for the playoffs... Maybe if he didn't keep on getting these things handed to him he might step up a bit... Just my 2 cents.

None of this was handed to him, except (arguably, because I didn't see him) his all-star appearance.

I agree he is too passibe.

I agree he mostly plays at his team level. Most NHLers do, BTW.

Young defensemen do it even more often.
 

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Lauser3 said:
Jovanovski is a much better player than Jaystine will ever be. Even at a younger age than Jaystine, he put up more points (something Jaystine hasn't managed to do in 2 leagues now), used his size (something Jaystine doesn't realize he has), fought (something Jaystine has never done in his career), hit, despite his blunders on defense. Basically he compensated in more than one area...whereas Jaystine doesn't and hasn't.

They are pretty different defensemen. I am not so sure he won't be as good as Jovanovski in a few years. But he sure won't look like Jovanovski.

Lauser3 said:
The expectations for 1st rounders are much higher than those for 8th or 9th rounders...that's just a fact of life. If he was good enough to make the team at a young age then he should be good enough to reach those expectations earlier than expected, especially when he's making over 1 million dollars a season. 6 goals in 143 games is unacceptable anyway you look at it...especially when considered a No. 1 defenseman on your own team. And I'm not even talking about in the future here either, but at the moment, during his time thus far in Florida (especially after Ozolinsh was traded). He was almost shown up by Lilja (who was lucky to be in the NHL) that first year after Ozo was gone, and was clearly outshined by Van Ryn (who wasn't even an NHL regular prior to Florida) last NHL season, when Mike was brought in to be a support for him not be the eventual #1. Jaystine's been consistently mediocre...you want to excuse his first year because he was a rookie? Fine. But what about his second season? What about this season in the AHL? And the subsequent season in the playoffs? Come on now.

I don't know. I like his first and second NHL seasons. If you don't, that's your prerogative. I can't speak of his AHL season. I didn't follow it. Did you?

Mike Van Ryn was really good, BTW. Nothing wrong with J-Bo being outshined by this guy IMO.

Lauser3 said:
As far as the Thornton-Arnott comparison...no question Thornton underperformed his rookie year in comparison to Arnott; however, he didn't have a sophmore slump and improved greatly since whereas Arnott seemed to have peaked at 18/19 in his rookie year. It took Joe one season to get better, whereas it's taken Jaystine over 3 (since he's in the playoffs now). And please don't point out the "defenseman take longer to develop, blah, blah, blah" because Pitkanen is relatively the same age and has done just fine in both the NHL and AHL despite coming over from Europe. And also don't give me the "Pitkanen plays on a better team than Jay" because Jaystine's with Chicago now, not San Antonio/Florida. Pronger was also young and on a bad team in Hartford yet he produced good numbers for a rookie dman. Ozolinsh was young his rookie season with a bad San Jose team and he too produced points. The excuses for Jaystine are running short...and in my opinion, have run out. 18 games in the AHL since his last point? Come on now.

It's not excuses. It's a fact that trying to track players by comparing them just doesn't work. I know this. You can insist and try to rationalize all this all you want, I can continue to pull examples such as Markus Naslund, Martin St.Louis and basically the majority of NHL players.

Performances are not linear and you can't track players and project what they will end up like simply by comparing this stuff. It's interesting that you brought Van Ryn earlier. He's another player who illustrates just that.

As for Pronger, he was basically run out of Hartford when people lost patience on him too early. But I guess hindsight makes you see it differently than it really happened. ;)

Lauser3 said:
BTW...I don't let anything said on a message board get to me, so no worries. ;) Laters.

I'm glad to hear that :D

Anyway, just to make it clear, I am pretty satisfied with how Bouwmeester played when I saw him in the NHL and WC. I see a lot of potential. There is room for improvement but the tools are there to improve. I do not really understand why people think those two first NHL seasons are disappointing. His track record, performance level is not unlike that of many highly-touted Ds.

I can't speak of his AHL season, nor do I care much about it. It's hard enough to project how lower league players will turn out so when I have the benefit of NHL experience to draw on, I'd rather look at that. I'm not going to lose my time checking out whan Lecavalier or Semin did in Russia or what Malone did in Finland, etc. to try and make sense of a puzzle when I have limited information of what happened there and a lot more tangible NHL information, which is more relevant to me anyway.

I expect Jay Bo to be fine and improve in his 3rd NHL season. And in a couple of years, I expect him to be as efficient and pretty similar to Wade Redden. And with some luck, he's got all the tools to be even more than that.
 

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Wally112pac said:
Weak reply.

You called all the stuff i said but it's the same crap you use to put down Jaybo.

Coburn is 1 year younger. According to your logic he should be dominating the AHL cause he's a high 1st rounder. But it's ok that he isn't cause he's not Jaybo. You only put down Jaybo.

Jaybo = Played for Canada in WC
Pitkanen = Healthy scratch for Finland in WC

It's funny how you don't acknowledge his point totals in his 2 NHL seasons.

82 games, 16 points
61 games, 20 points

You don't see an improvement there?

Only 6 goals total? WHO CARES? He's a defenseman not Ilya Kovalchuk. His job is to put up points, not necessarily put the puck in the net himself.

Please don't give me the secondary assist crap either. If you're goin to use that do the research for every NHL player and see what everyones point totals would be if you took it off.

I at least answer everything you ask or try to...you on the other hand, didn't answer my question regarding Pitkanen's point totals in comparison to Bouwmeester...hmmm...why is that?

You re trying to crap on Coburn when he has 15 games of pro experience, compared to Bouwmeester, who has about 200 (239 to be exact)?? I'm a not crapping on Coburn (he's actually 1 year and 5 months younger actually btw) because he's too green in the pros whereas Bouwmeester is in his 4th season of pros already. You can't see the difference here? Bouwmeester is an OFFENSIVE defenseman while Coburn is better termed a DEFENSIVE defenseman...you haven't learned the difference yet?

I've acknowledged his total points in the NHL several times already in this thread (again, read up)...a guy that averaged 13 goals and 37 assists per season in Juniors should be scoring near half that in the NHL starting out (that is, 7 goals and 19 assists) before eventually making his Junior numbers at the NHL level. Jaystine hasn't done this at the NHL. He should double those numbers in the AHL...again, he failed. Second assists are like the +/- stat because you don't really have to work for it so it is relevant. I wish you could go back and check those stats for every NHL player but unfortunately you can't go back that far.

Ask Pitkanen or any NHL player for that matter, whether they would prefer to play for the Stanley Cup in the NHL playoffs or the gold in the World Championships/Olympics? Gee, I wonder. I'm sure Pitkanen's kicking himself for not playing. :biglaugh:

6 goals in TWO seasons (143 games) should be a big deal when the guy drafted after you (with less offensive potential) scored 8 in only 71 games.

I'm not expecting Kovalchuk numbers...but are 7 goals to much to ask for from a guy averaging 13 in Juniors? Last I checked, Bryan McCabe (17 goals last NHL season) and Sheldon Souray (16 goals) were defensemen also correct?

Almost forgot...Niklas Lidstrom recorded 11 goals and 49 assists for 60 points his rookie year (as a 21 year old) prior to the Detroit Red Wings' powerhouse teams of recent years. Ozo (as a 20 year old rookie) recorded 7 goals and 16 assists for 23 points in 37 games with a very bad San Jose Sharks team. Pronger scored 10 goals and 34 assists for 44 points in his first 124 NHL games on a really bad (even worse than the Panthers Jaystine played for) Hartford Whalers team as an 18 to 20 year old. Jovanovski (as a 19 year old rookie); 10 goals and 11 assists for 21 points in 70 NHL games. Yeah, I can see where Jaystine really ranks up there with those guys. Yup. :biglaugh:
 
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Wally112pac

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OMG lol.

Would you get it through your head already.

Jaybo isn't goin to put up his junior point totals in his first couple years in the NHL.

It's too big of a step. You're expecting him to go from junior star to NHL star in 1 season. And you say you're being a realist. :shakehead

It's goin to take him a good 5 years.

You mentioned Van Ryn. He just had his breakout year in 03-04. FIVE years after he was drafted in 98.

Name me the last dman to play in the NHL at 18 besides Jaybo. They're pretty rare.

I like Coburn a lot. I'm not putting him down at all.

Young dman need time to mature. Especailly if you play on a bad team like Florida. Coburn's numbers won't be through the roof either when he gets to Atlanta.

Pitkanen is a little different cause he played on a team that had over 100 points and an excellent pp.

"Ask Pitkanen or any NHL player for that matter, whether they would prefer to play for the Stanley Cup in the NHL playoffs or the gold in the World Championships/Olympics? Gee, I wonder. I'm sure Pitkanen's kicking himself for not playing."

When i said WC, i meant World Cup. Not World Championship. I thought you would know that considering i said Pitkanen was a healthy scratch. Pitkanen has never played in the World Championship since he came to phili. Or was there not a stat that you could look up to tell you that? ;)
 

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Wally112pac said:
OMG lol.

Would you get it through your head already.

Jaybo isn't goin to put up his junior point totals in his first couple years in the NHL.

It's too big of a step. You're expecting him to go from junior star to NHL star in 1 season. And you say you're being a realist. :shakehead

It's goin to take him a good 5 years.

You mentioned Van Ryn. He just had his breakout year in 03-04. FIVE years after he was drafted in 98.

Name me the last dman to play in the NHL at 18 besides Jaybo. They're pretty rare.


I like Coburn a lot. I'm not putting him down at all.

Young dman need time to mature. Especailly if you play on a bad team like Florida. Coburn's numbers won't be through the roof either when he gets to Atlanta.

Pitkanen is a little different cause he played on a team that had over 100 points and an excellent pp.

"Ask Pitkanen or any NHL player for that matter, whether they would prefer to play for the Stanley Cup in the NHL playoffs or the gold in the World Championships/Olympics? Gee, I wonder. I'm sure Pitkanen's kicking himself for not playing."

When i said WC, i meant World Cup. Not World Championship. I thought you would know that considering i said Pitkanen was a healthy scratch. Pitkanen has never played in the World Championship since he came to phili. Or was there not a stat that you could look up to tell you that? ;)

Where did I say I expected Jaystine to put up his Junior totals during his first couple seasons, anywhere? I said, I expected about half (7 goals and 19 assists) of his averages from Juniors (13 goals and 37 assists)...that's not too much to ask considering guys before him have done so. (Learn to read before posting next time ok?)

I'm being a realist because he was expected to be our #1 defenseman from his first season, once Ozolinsh was traded that is. Or did you conveniently forget that one? No. 1 defenseman put up points and that's the bottom line. You know what's funny...just saw that TSN.CA has demoted Bouwmeester from "franchise defenseman" his rookie year, to "No. 1 defenseman" after his 2nd year. What do you think the next time will be? :)

As for the last 18 year old...you'd probably need to go way back because most teams (with the exception of Florida) don't rush their prospects or are in dire need of defense which is why Bouwmeester was our immediate #2 (after Ozolinsh) his rookie year. Because our team (Florida) was that bad off. If I had to guess though...Pronger/Tverdovsky? BTW...Bouwmeester wasn't 18 his rookie year, he was 19 actually...he turned 19 (September 2002) prior to 2002-2003 season...so if you're asking 19 year olds, then there have been a couple in recent years.

Van Ryn is still unproven as far as I'm concerned. One good season doesn't change the fact he was in the minors most of his career. He's still got plenty to prove too, because he's a late bloomer so he may have peaked already for all we know. He's already in his prime (25 or 26 right?) years for the NHL, so there are still question marks surrounding him. Like with any other player, consistency throughout his career will determine whether he's a one season wonder/bust/mediocre/decent/good/very good/great/star player...until then, he's still in the same boat as Bouwmeester...unproven, although not mediocre like Jaystine obviously. I mean, you have to give credit where credit is due and Mike's already has almost 3 times as many goals in the NHL as Jaystine does in only 5 more games played.

So Pitkanen gets a free pass for being on a good team in the NHL, yet he's continued to produce points in the AHL as well, but Jaystine gets excused either way even though he's on a better team in the AHL? Doesn't make sense. But if we're talking NHL teams then...why were Pronger and Ozolinsh still able to produce points at young ages (18 -20) and on bad teams (Hartford and San Jose) but you need to make excuses for Jaystine for underperforming? Hmmm...why is that exactly?

As for the last part...World Championships/World Cup/Olympics/Whatever, it still doesn't change the rhetorical question at hand...nor the answer: nothing beats the NHL playoffs and winning the Stanley Cup for players. Period.
 

Hughes J Laffy

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Lauser3 said:
We've already established your lack of logic in the Florida Panthers' thread already...I'm not going to enlighten you again. It's just a waste of time going over it again with a guy more interested in what Jay's eye color is than what he actually does on the ice. Capiche? Not to mention a guy that thinks Roberto Luongo is the best goaltender in the NHL right now. It's apples and oranges with you...leave the hockey talk to the grown folk ok? Thanks.

Logic? you should not speak logic with anyone cause you are not making any sense at all. I have seen J-Bo play on the ice and I know what he can do and what he cannot do. And since when do you care about how a player play since all you are using is the stats.
I was asking for his eye colour because I was making a research for my NHL2003, does that make me know less about hockey? I will tell you what know nothing about hockey is, that is when you took Scott Stevens numbers in 82-83 and compared that numbers to J-Bo numbers :shakehead

And you are so grown up that you changed you user name once in a while right? was you name not "evildreams" before? and "windcrafter" or something like that before everything?

And yes, I think Luongo is the best goalie in NHL, and Im not the only one that feel that way.
 
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Vlad The Impaler

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Lauser3 said:
I'm being a realist because he was expected to be our #1 defenseman from his first season, once Ozolinsh was traded that is. Or did you conveniently forget that one? No. 1 defenseman put up points and that's the bottom line. You know what's funny...just saw that TSN.CA has demoted Bouwmeester from "franchise defenseman" his rookie year, to "No. 1 defenseman" after his 2nd year. What do you think the next time will be? :)

That just isn't very realistic, sorry. You can't be realistic and expect a 19 years old D to be an efficient #1 D. Realism would tell you even a highly-touted D will be a success if he can even sustain NHL shifts at that age. Everything else is pretty much a bunus at that point, IMO.

Lauser3 said:
As for the last 18 year old...you'd probably need to go way back because most teams (with the exception of Florida) don't rush their prospects or are in dire need of defense which is why Bouwmeester was our immediate #2 (after Ozolinsh) his rookie year. Because our team (Florida) was that bad off. If I had to guess though...Pronger/Tverdovsky? BTW...Bouwmeester wasn't 18 his rookie year, he was 19 actually...he turned 19 (September 2002) prior to 2002-2003 season...so if you're asking 19 year olds, then there have been a couple in recent years.

And how did they look?


Lauser3 said:
Van Ryn is still unproven as far as I'm concerned. One good season doesn't change the fact he was in the minors most of his career. He's still got plenty to prove too, because he's a late bloomer so he may have peaked already for all we know. He's already in his prime (25 or 26 right?) years for the NHL, so there are still question marks surrounding him. Like with any other player, consistency throughout his career will determine whether he's a one season wonder/bust/mediocre/decent/good/very good/great/star player...until then, he's still in the same boat as Bouwmeester...unproven, although not mediocre like Jaystine obviously. I mean, you have to give credit where credit is due and Mike's already has almost 3 times as many goals in the NHL as Jaystine does in only 5 more games played.

Mike Van Ryn was really good, IMO. I don't think you give him enough credit. That being said, you are also pretty harsh by comparing him to Bouwmeester like that. It's apples and oranges between those two. Mike Van Ryn is a man. He plays like a man too. He's honed his skills for years.

I think what he has done was great. But I don't think it is realistic to compare him to Bouwmeester. I'm not much for point comparisons and all that stuff but if you insist on doing it, I think it's much more fair to map it out with players in similar situations. Pitkanen, Klesla, guys where the age/experience was similar.


Lauser3 said:
So Pitkanen gets a free pass for being on a good team in the NHL, yet he's continued to produce points in the AHL as well, but Jaystine gets excused either way even though he's on a better team in the AHL?

Are you new? Joni Pitkanen gets his fair share of criticisms from fair weather, panicky fans just like Jay. There's already a horde of people predicting bust status, in part because he wore down and also because of concussions and lack of toughness.

Nobody gets a free pass on HF. One dumb Panther fan last year said Nash wasn't convincing enough and basically called him a poor man's Nathan Horton.

Lauser3 said:
But if we're talking NHL teams then...why were Pronger and Ozolinsh still able to produce points at young ages (18 -20) and on bad teams (Hartford and San Jose) but you need to make excuses for Jaystine for underperforming? Hmmm...why is that exactly?

It was a very different time for offense from the blueline.

The part of your answer as to why guys like Pronger were able to get 30 points lies in part with the fact Malakhov had close to 60 points that year Matthieu Schneider 52, Richard ****ing Smehlik 41, Ray Bourque 91, Glen Wesley 58, Larry Murphy 73, Al MacInnis 82, Jeff Brown 62 (in almost as many games), Bill Houlder 39, Blake 68, Zhitnik 52, Kravchuk 50, Beers 43, Shannon 58, Chelios 60, Ledyard 46, Ellet 43, Coffey 77, Lidstrom 56, Chiasson 46, Galley 70, Racine 52, Gord Murphy 43, Kurvers 40, Cote 51, Iafrate 45, Johansson 42, Kevin Hatcher 40, Stevens 78, Niedermayer 46.

It was a time where guys like Zubov, Chelios, Stevens could be on top of their team in scoring. No offense to these players, but they would have had problems pulling that off in today's NHL.

The fist passes out of the zone had a chance to make something happen back then. And rushing the puck was not yet the sin it is today. As a matter of fact, very young NHLers at an easier time breaking in back then too.

Anyway, I'd compare Jay Bo to players post 95-96. I'm sure there are some pretty good players who will statistically be superior to Jay to strenghten whatever argument you are trying to make :D

Lauser3 said:
As for the last part...World Championships/World Cup/Olympics/Whatever, it still doesn't change the rhetorical question at hand...nor the answer: nothing beats the NHL playoffs and winning the Stanley Cup for players. Period.

Precisely. Which is why focusing on his AHL play is rather strange ;)
 

Wally112pac

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Lauser3 said:
Where did I say I expected Jaystine to put up his Junior totals during his first couple seasons, anywhere? I said, I expected about half (7 goals and 19 assists) of his averages from Juniors (13 goals and 37 assists)...that's not too much to ask considering guys before him have done so.

I'm being a realist because he was expected to be our #1 defenseman from his first season, once Ozolinsh was traded that is.

So was Eric Staal a disappointment for you last year? He put up 98 points in his last junior season and only 31 in his first NHL season. According to your logic he didn't live up to expectations cause he didn't get about half his junior points.

What about Horton? He played in the same amount of games in both his last junior year and first NHL season. He got 68 points his junior year and only 22 in the NHL. He's on his way to bein an above average forward right?

Dustin Brown. 58 games, 76 points in his last year in Guelph. 5 points in 31 games with the Kings. On his way to being just another checker right?

Pierre-Marc Bouchard. 69 games, 140 points in his last year with Chicoutimi. 20 points in 50 games in his first year with the Wild.

And no, Jaybo was not tagged as Florida's #1 defenseman in his rookie year. Whoever said that was on some terribly cheap drugs. That is way too much to ask.

He'll eventually be a number 1 like Jovo, Pronger and Niedermayer but it will come when he's in his mid-late 20's.
 

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Roberto Luongo said:
Logic? you should not speak logic with anyone cause you are not making any sense at all. I have seen J-Bo play on the ice and I know what he can do and what he cannot do. And since when do you care about how a player play since all you are using is the stats.
I was asking for his eye colour because I was making a research for my NHL2003, does that make me know less about hockey? I will tell you what know nothing about hockey is, that is when you took Scott Stevens numbers in 82-83 and compared that numbers to J-Bo numbers :shakehead

And you are so grown up that you changed you user name once in a while right? was you name not "evildreams" before? and "windcrafter" or something like that before everything?

And yes, I think Luongo is the best goalie in NHL, and Im not the only one that feel that way.

Sure you were...surprised you're not asking about Roberto's eye color now. :biglaugh:

FYI...I've never used any other username but this one and on just about every Panthers board around btw.

As for Stevens' numbers...um, genius...he's a DEFENSIVE defenseman; the fact he puts up points is a bonus. Like I said...read up before posting junior; you might learn something.
 

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Roberto Luongo said:
You are crazy, Rathje did not scored 20+ points until he was 29 years old. J-Bo already scored 20 points in his 2nd NHL season.

Pay attention junior...you ready? Rathje had similar numbers like Jaystine in Juniors. They both played in the WHL. They both played for Medicine Hat. They were both drafted in the first round by bad teams. They were both drafted 3rd overall in their draft years. They both play a non physical type of game despite having plenty of size. They both didn't score many goals early on in their pro careers. The similarities are striking but I just thought it would be funny and some fool would get riled up by it. And you did. :)
 

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That just isn't very realistic, sorry. You can't be realistic and expect a 19 years old D to be an efficient #1 D. Realism would tell you even a highly-touted D will be a success if he can even sustain NHL shifts at that age. Everything else is pretty much a bunus at that point, IMO.

Tell that to the Panthers, who made him the #1 guy after trading Sandis Ozolinsh to the Mighty Ducks.



And how did they look?

Pronger and Tverdovsky? Man, I don't remember...it's been a while, but Pronger at least had better numbers than Jaystine.




Mike Van Ryn was really good, IMO. I don't think you give him enough credit. That being said, you are also pretty harsh by comparing him to Bouwmeester like that. It's apples and oranges between those two. Mike Van Ryn is a man. He plays like a man too. He's honed his skills for years.

Last I checked Bouwmeester is a 21 year old man, soon to be 22 right? He makes a living playing sport like a kid, but I'm pretty he doesn't have his parents making the decisions for him or signing his contracts anymore. Van Ryn isn't proven yet...1 season doesn't make him a bonafide NHLer just yet. Was I happy he was on our team? Absolutely...especially since he picked up the slack for Jaystine. Van Ryn is a #2 guy and was supposed to be support last year to Jaystine, not our best defenseman...that was Jaystine's job to be. He wasn't of course. Don't get me wrong though...I like the way Mike plays but he made Florida's team because we were that bad off defensively. Had we had depth of say, a Colorado or Detroit...Mike might still be a part-timer. Consistency will be the key to his success in the NHL.

I think what he has done was great. But I don't think it is realistic to compare him to Bouwmeester. I'm not much for point comparisons and all that stuff but if you insist on doing it, I think it's much more fair to map it out with players in similar situations. Pitkanen, Klesla, guys where the age/experience was similar.

Van Ryn played on the same bad team as Bouwmeester, yet he produced while Jaystine did not. Why not compare the two? They're both considered two way offensive defenseman...of course Mike's the back up guy, not the go-to guy (supposedly).


Are you new? Joni Pitkanen gets his fair share of criticisms from fair weather, panicky fans just like Jay. There's already a horde of people predicting bust status, in part because he wore down and also because of concussions and lack of toughness.

I know he does...but I was addressing Wally's response to Pitkanen playing on a good team and that's why he produces more than Jaystine. He brings the good/bad team excuse yet doesn't make mention that Bouwmeester's now playing on a good team in the AHL and is still having trouble producing...while Pitkanen just scored another goal. :)

Nobody gets a free pass on HF. One dumb Panther fan last year said Nash wasn't convincing enough and basically called him a poor man's Nathan Horton.

I would say the opposite...Horton is the poor man's Rick Nash IMO. Not a big fan of Nate's either but I feel bad for the guy. Even more glad we got Stewart as insurance.


It was a very different time for offense from the blueline.

The part of your answer as to why guys like Pronger were able to get 30 points lies in part with the fact Malakhov had close to 60 points that year Matthieu Schneider 52, Richard ****ing Smehlik 41, Ray Bourque 91, Glen Wesley 58, Larry Murphy 73, Al MacInnis 82, Jeff Brown 62 (in almost as many games), Bill Houlder 39, Blake 68, Zhitnik 52, Kravchuk 50, Beers 43, Shannon 58, Chelios 60, Ledyard 46, Ellet 43, Coffey 77, Lidstrom 56, Chiasson 46, Galley 70, Racine 52, Gord Murphy 43, Kurvers 40, Cote 51, Iafrate 45, Johansson 42, Kevin Hatcher 40, Stevens 78, Niedermayer 46.

It was a time where guys like Zubov, Chelios, Stevens could be on top of their team in scoring. No offense to these players, but they would have had problems pulling that off in today's NHL.

The fist passes out of the zone had a chance to make something happen back then. And rushing the puck was not yet the sin it is today. As a matter of fact, very young NHLers at an easier time breaking in back then too.

Anyway, I'd compare Jay Bo to players post 95-96. I'm sure there are some pretty good players who will statistically be superior to Jay to strenghten whatever argument you are trying to make :D

There are, but I'll stick with the guys that he's been compared to in the past or asked to replace. :)



Precisely. Which is why focusing on his AHL play is rather strange :)

Well, it's considered the one level below the NHL (although I'm not so sure on that one) so it's the closest feel to it I have going on right now. haha. But for the record...most of the stuff you've responded was directed at Wallypac...don't you watch hockey man? You get thrown out for third man in! :)
 

Wally112pac

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Lauser3 said:
As for Stevens' numbers...um, genius...he's a DEFENSIVE defenseman; the fact he puts up points is a bonus. Like I said...read up before posting junior; you might learn something.

lol.

Stevens wasn't a defensive defenseman in his younger years.

Just because TSN tells you he's a defensive defenseman now doesn't mean he was in 1987.

Man, you relay on stats and TSN's "Career potential" more than i thought. :biglaugh:

"Like I said...read up before posting junior; you might learn something"

No kidding lol.
 

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Wally112pac said:
So was Eric Staal a disappointment for you last year? He put up 98 points in his last junior season and only 31 in his first NHL season. According to your logic he didn't live up to expectations cause he didn't get about half his junior points.

What about Horton? He played in the same amount of games in both his last junior year and first NHL season. He got 68 points his junior year and only 22 in the NHL. He's on his way to bein an above average forward right?

Dustin Brown. 58 games, 76 points in his last year in Guelph. 5 points in 31 games with the Kings. On his way to being just another checker right?

Pierre-Marc Bouchard. 69 games, 140 points in his last year with Chicoutimi. 20 points in 50 games in his first year with the Wild.

And no, Jaybo was not tagged as Florida's #1 defenseman in his rookie year. Whoever said that was on some terribly cheap drugs. That is way too much to ask.

He'll eventually be a number 1 like Jovo, Pronger and Niedermayer but it will come when he's in his mid-late 20's.



Staal was a lot closer to his Junior totals than Bouwmeester was; that's for sure. I think Staal had a good season but not a stellar one, no.

Horton's year was inconclusive because of the injuries but I can't say I'm a big fan of the kid. I don't think 18 and 19 year olds should be playing in the NHL personally. I rather they pay their dues in the minors first and then get promoted based on progress so we don't have the Bouwmeester problem we have now.

Dustin Brown didn't impress his first year; rest assured of that. The kid just wasn't ready.

But you're bringing up guys that don't have more than a year in the NHL. Bouwmeester has TWO. Compare him to guys from his draft year...like Pitkanen. :)

So if Bouwmeester wasn't our #1 guy in his rookie year after Ozo was traded then who was exactly? Trnka? Mezei? Biron? :biglaugh: Get real Wally...face facts, he was expected to be the #1 guy and pick up the slack after Ozo was traded...he was on our top pairing and got the most (or 2nd most) ice time of all our dmen by the end of his rookie year. It's what happens when you let an organization be run by Rick Dudley.

Until he starts producing offensively like the Niedermayers, Prongers, and Jovanovskis, he shouldn't even be mentioned with them period. How often does a guy that scores two goals a season win a Norris Trophy huh?

You're still avoiding parts of my posts by the way...conveniently of course. :)
 

Lauser3*

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Wally112pac said:
lol.

Stevens wasn't a defensive defenseman in his younger years.

Just because TSN tells you he's a defensive defenseman now doesn't mean he was in 1987.

Man, you relay on stats and TSN's "Career potential" more than i thought. :biglaugh:

"Like I said...read up before posting junior; you might learn something"

No kidding lol.

You're kidding right? You do know Stevens was a fighter back in those days right and he wasn't picked for his offensive numbers in Juniors correct? Now, why don't you start to address some of the points I've made instead of avoiding them like Jaystine does contact. :biglaugh:
 

Wally112pac

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Lauser3 said:
You're still avoiding parts of my posts by the way...conveniently of course. :)

Yes i am.

There's nothin i can say that will get you to agree that Jbo is too young to be putting up 35 points a season.

Hamhuis didn't and he played on a pretty good team. Neither did Pitkanen and he played on an even better team. Paul Martin didn't and he was 23 in his first year.

You just said this.

"I don't think 18 and 19 year olds should be playing in the NHL personally. I rather they pay their dues in the minors first and then get promoted based on progress so we don't have the Bouwmeester problem we have now"

But you rag on Jaybo when he doesn't put up the points you expect but you agree he's too young to be in the NHL in the first place. :dunno:
 

Lauser3*

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Wally112pac said:
Yes i am.

There's nothin i can say that will get you to agree that Jbo is too young to be putting up 35 points a season.

Hamhuis didn't and he played on a pretty good team. Neither did Pitkanen and he played on an even better team. Paul Martin didn't and he was 23 in his first year.

You just said this.

"I don't think 18 and 19 year olds should be playing in the NHL personally. I rather they pay their dues in the minors first and then get promoted based on progress so we don't have the Bouwmeester problem we have now"

But you rag on Jaybo when he doesn't put up the points you expect but you agree he's too young to be in the NHL in the first place. :dunno:

I wasn't saying 35...I'm saying 25 (about half his Junior totals) for the first few years or so, and then eventually getting over 35 later on...but in the way of 7 goals and 18 assists more or less, not 2 or 4 goals.

What I find funny are the numerous excuses for him...#1 he's too young, but so is Rick Nash. But then #2, he's a defenseman and they take longer to develop than forwards like Nash. Then you mention a defenseman of his age (Pitkanen) and we go to #3, he plays on a bad team like Florida while Pitkanen plays on a good team. Then you mention how Jaystine is playing for one of the best teams now and is still not producing and we get #4 he's working on his defense or #5 he's more a defensive defenseman than an offensive one. Then you mention McCabe and his 16/17 goals and you get #6 he's more experienced than Jaystine and has #7 has other great players around him. Then you mention Luongo and Jokinen and you get, #8 Florida was still a bad team. So you mention Van Ryn who played on the same bad team but still produced and you get more and more excuses. It's excuses, after excuses for this guy....why? Because he's Canadian? Come on now...call it like it is...quit making excuses for him already.
 

Lauser3*

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Wally112pac said:
You just said this.

"I don't think 18 and 19 year olds should be playing in the NHL personally. I rather they pay their dues in the minors first and then get promoted based on progress so we don't have the Bouwmeester problem we have now"

But you rag on Jaybo when he doesn't put up the points you expect but you agree he's too young to be in the NHL in the first place. :dunno:

Right, because the fact they are playing means they're are supposed to be better or more polished than the average 18/19 year old...and they are deemed ready by guys that are supposed to know more than you or I, so yes, I do expect a lot of them. Absolutely. Why not? They're making millions of dollars...they should produce. Period.
 

Wally112pac

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Lauser3 said:
I wasn't saying 35...I'm saying 25 (about half his Junior totals) for the first few years or so, and then eventually getting over 35 later on...but in the way of 7 goals and 18 assists more or less, not 2 or 4 goals.

What I find funny are the numerous excuses for him...#1 he's too young, but so is Rick Nash. But then #2, he's a defenseman and they take longer to develop than forwards like Nash. Then you mention a defenseman of his age (Pitkanen) and we go to #3, he plays on a bad team like Florida while Pitkanen plays on a good team. Then you mention how Jaystine is playing for one of the best teams now and is still not producing and we get #4 he's working on his defense or #5 he's more a defensive defenseman than an offensive one. Then you mention McCabe and his 16/17 goals and you get #6 he's more experienced than Jaystine and has #7 has other great players around him. Then you mention Luongo and Jokinen and you get, #8 Florida was still a bad team. So you mention Van Ryn who played on the same bad team but still produced and you get more and more excuses. It's excuses, after excuses for this guy....why? Because he's Canadian? Come on now...call it like it is...quit making excuses for him already.

I don't think i mentioned half of those lol.

He's supposed to put up points cause Florida has Luongo and Jokinen? They're a bad team with those guys.

His points will come but it will take time for the 55th time.

Mike Milbury is a moron cause he's traded away so many good young players that he didn't give half a chance. They've developed elsewhere and now they're stars.

You sound a lot like Milbury. You're already half givin up on Jbo cause he hasn't reached 25 points yet lol. Even though in his last NHL year he got 20 points and missed 20 games. Had he played the full 82 he would have passed 25. Happy yet?

Just wait til Martin gets his hands on him.

I don't even want to know your opinion on Klesla lol. He's scored 2 goals in each of the last 2 seasons too.
 

Wally112pac

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Lauser3 said:
Right, because the fact they are playing means they're are supposed to be better or more polished than the average 18/19 year old...and they are deemed ready by guys that are supposed to know more than you or I, so yes, I do expect a lot of them. Absolutely. Why not? They're making millions of dollars...they should produce. Period.

You're contradicting yourself.

In 1 paragraph you don't think he should have been in the NHL at 18/19. But in the other you say well since he's there has HAS to produce.

Choose 1.

If he's in the NHL as an 18/19/20 year old he's not goin to produce many points. That's just life as an NHL dman. You have to cut him some slack at this age.

If his point total is 25 at age 26 then you are correct about his game.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Lauser3 said:
Tell that to the Panthers, who made him the #1 guy after trading Sandis Ozolinsh to the Mighty Ducks.

Last I checked Bouwmeester is a 21 year old man, soon to be 22 right? He makes a living playing sport like a kid, but I'm pretty he doesn't have his parents making the decisions for him or signing his contracts anymore. Van Ryn isn't proven yet...1 season doesn't make him a bonafide NHLer just yet. Was I happy he was on our team? Absolutely...especially since he picked up the slack for Jaystine. Van Ryn is a #2 guy and was supposed to be support last year to Jaystine, not our best defenseman...that was Jaystine's job to be. He wasn't of course. Don't get me wrong though...I like the way Mike plays but he made Florida's team because we were that bad off defensively. Had we had depth of say, a Colorado or Detroit...Mike might still be a part-timer. Consistency will be the key to his success in the NHL.


Van Ryn played on the same bad team as Bouwmeester, yet he produced while Jaystine did not. Why not compare the two? They're both considered two way offensive defenseman...of course Mike's the back up guy, not the go-to guy (supposedly).

Well, I guess at this point I can't say anything more, except I completely disagree with that. It's clear we understand each others, but you just see it very differently from the way I do.

I don't agree at all with these Jay Bouwmeester's expectations of a #1 D at 19/20 years old, nor with comparing him to an older player as a proof that something is wrong there.

I think you worry too much. You seem to have been greatly disappointed. But at least nobody can call you a homer on that call. I don't know if the Panthers really said Jay was expected to be an effective #1 at that age but if they did, they were wrong to do so.

I humbly suggest you take that advice: Don't ever again believe that kind of PR statements. Under the current way the NHL works, it would take a miracle to get an efficient #1 right in his first season following the draft, unless he's an overager someone lucked on.

I think Jay will favorably surprise you in the next few years.
 
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