Proposal: Blues badly need a number 1 LHD.

alwaysBlue

Registered User
Jan 17, 2018
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If we can get Lindholm, our squad vaults into the legit contenders category. 1st, Scandella back for cap, and a prospect

Kyrou-ROR-Perron
Saad-Thomas-VT
Bozak (or neighbors) -Schenn-Buch
Cliff-Barb-Sundqvist

Lindholm-Colt
Krug-Faulk
Mikkola-Perunovich

Binnington
Husso
 

CaliforniaBlues310

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Apr 9, 2013
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My numbers are for what role these guys would properly play on a Cup contender. You'd shelter Krug and let him run your PP. If a guy like Krug is getting #3 or more minutes, that is not a real contender. The Blues give him #3 minutes now, and they are not a real contender. Pretending they are a contender with Krug getting #3 minutes is lol worthy.

I mean, he averaged over 21 minutes a night in the regular season and playoffs on the 18/19 Boston team who we barely beat in the Final.
 

PocketNines

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I mean, he averaged over 21 minutes a night in the regular season and playoffs on the 18/19 Boston team who we barely beat in the Final.
His contributions on the PP were elite three seasons ago and should remain strong for another few years (not six though). You're truly insulted that he'd be labeled for the second pair/as a specialist? Defensively he is a weak link, there's no way around it. Last year's Colorado series also happened. He was forced to play against top forwards and it was like two different sports were being played. He is a little guy. Now and going forward he's a PP specialist 4/5 for a contender or a 3 on an average team. He's a top pair guy on a non-playoff team.

If the Blues were a contender with him as a #3 which he is right now, would this thread exist?
 
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sfvega

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This is a pipe dream. We have neither the cap space nor the assets to acquire what we need. Army seems to have shifted his focus to offense.
 

HighNote

Just one more Cup
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So if Krug is a "2nd pairing defenseman," that would mean that there are at least 31 LD and 62 d-men in the league better than Krug. Do you really think that's the case? I'm curious where non-Blues fans without a bias against Krug would rank him leaguewide, because I'm pretty sure most people would consider him a top pair LD even if he's not the d-man some Blues fans want.
That's not how this works. Some teams have 3 top pairing defenseman, some teams have 0. The amount of teams in the league does not dictate how many players are good enough to be considered a top pairing defenseman.

I'm not biased towards or against Krug to be honest. I think he was alright last year and I'm optimistic about him playing better this year given that he's settled in and it appears as though it will be a fairly normal season. However, I am of the opinion that in order for a player to be a top pairing defenseman, you have to be able to play solid defense against the opposition's best. And if you can't do that, you better be putting up points at a near PPG pace to make up for it. Last year Krug was on pace for just 3 goals and 51 points over a full season. That's pretty good in terms of assists (goals are lacking), but it's not good enough to make up for his defensive shortcomings if he's going to be a top pairing guy. I'd say his combination of point production and defensive capabilities land him on the 2nd pairing as a high end #3 defenseman who can quarterback a powerplay and be successful with sheltered minutes. Ideally you want him away from your top pairing so he can focus more on his offense. If he has to focus on defending against the other teams' best, he's not playing to his strengths and he's likely going to struggle. But Krug could certainly play on the top pair on many teams around the league, just not on a team that is hoping to contend for a Cup.
 

bernmeister

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They don't need a full-on #1, they just need somebody who can pair with Parayko for significant shutdown minutes. They basically need a defensive/two-way #2 or #3.

First, Romanov is not a number one LHD

second, Montreal also badly need LHD's

Barring a huge step forward for Krug this year (mainly in terms of defensive play), he is a 2nd pairing defenseman. We need a shutdown guy that can play with Parayko so that Krug gets bumped down to the 2nd pairing where he belongs and so Scandella isn't in the top 4 anymore. He doesn't need to necessarily be a #1 defenseman, just someone who is serviceable on the top pairing and is sound defensively. Basically we need Bouwmeester or Edmundson back.

Who are the Blues going to send back with enough salary to make room for their new LD under the cap?

This is a pipe dream. We have neither the cap space nor the assets to acquire what we need. Army seems to have shifted his focus to offense.

The one that first the bill is Lindgren, who is reasonable newly signed at 3m per x 3. Our 6'0 191 1LD is Fox's partner, smart positionally and solid at clear the crease, plays with lots of heart and would pair well with Colton Parayko.

He's available b'c Rangers have surplus.
We have a larger version in Robertson and we could promote him now, but a year at the A while we juggle other roster spots is fine,
Jones continued strong play suggests he is ready now. and we already have K'Andre Miller, Nemeth, and sufficient depth.

Of course, Lindy is understandably super popular, and we would be asked to take someone we don't want back b'c StL is < 1m in cap room.

So I'm thinking
Lindgren + NYR 2022 + 2023 3rds
for
expiring Perron at 4 [= 1m instant cap relief] + St. L 2022 + 2023 1sts

something like that

_______

MON fans make a separate thread pls with exactly what you are looking for and we can see if there is a match
 

sfvega

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Apr 20, 2015
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The one that first the bill is Lindgren, who is reasonable newly signed at 3m per x 3. Our 6'0 191 1LD is Fox's partner, smart positionally and solid at clear the crease, plays with lots of heart and would pair well with Colton Parayko.

He's available b'c Rangers have surplus.
We have a larger version in Robertson and we could promote him now, but a year at the A while we juggle other roster spots is fine,
Jones continued strong play suggests he is ready now. and we already have K'Andre Miller, Nemeth, and sufficient depth.

Of course, Lindy is understandably super popular, and we would be asked to take someone we don't want back b'c StL is < 1m in cap room.

So I'm thinking
Lindgren + NYR 2022 + 2023 3rds
for
expiring Perron at 4 [= 1m instant cap relief] + St. L 2022 + 2023 1sts

something like that

_______

MON fans make a separate thread pls with exactly what you are looking for and we can see if there is a match

Lindgren would be a good add, but not at that cost. Perron isn't really an expiring contract so much as our best LW by a decent margin. Giving him + 2 firsts, even for a front office qho has been giving away 1sts like candy is a big, big ask. For that cost, I'd just go with Lindholm. Easy pass.
 

67Blues

Got it for Bobby
Mar 22, 2013
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The one that first the bill is Lindgren, who is reasonable newly signed at 3m per x 3. Our 6'0 191 1LD is Fox's partner, smart positionally and solid at clear the crease, plays with lots of heart and would pair well with Colton Parayko.

He's available b'c Rangers have surplus.
We have a larger version in Robertson and we could promote him now, but a year at the A while we juggle other roster spots is fine,
Jones continued strong play suggests he is ready now. and we already have K'Andre Miller, Nemeth, and sufficient depth.

Of course, Lindy is understandably super popular, and we would be asked to take someone we don't want back b'c StL is < 1m in cap room.

So I'm thinking
Lindgren + NYR 2022 + 2023 3rds
for
expiring Perron at 4 [= 1m instant cap relief] + St. L 2022 + 2023 1sts

something like that

_______

MON fans make a separate thread pls with exactly what you are looking for and we can see if there is a match
Hard pass. Perron should (and probably will) retire a Blue. He is a major part of the Blues offense. The next two first should be off limits as the cupboard is bare on prospects and needs to be restocked. That trade would probably close the Blues window and there would be no picks on which to launch a retool.
 
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bernmeister

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Lindgren would be a good add, but not at that cost. Perron isn't really an expiring contract so much as our best LW by a decent margin. Giving him + 2 firsts, even for a front office qho has been giving away 1sts like candy is a big, big ask. For that cost, I'd just go with Lindholm. Easy pass.

Hard pass. Perron should (and probably will) retire a Blue. He is a major part of the Blues offense. The next two first should be off limits as the cupboard is bare on prospects and needs to be restocked. That trade would probably close the Blues window and there would be no picks on which to launch a retool.

Sorry, did not realize Perron was that good/key to current Blues success, just went for numerical cap.

Open to alternate suggestion, but don't expect there is a match given what NY would need and StL can pony up.

Thanks for constructive feedback.
 

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
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Rangers could do retained Strome + Lindgren
for
Tara +

but expect we are better off w/Lindy on the open market

unless someone wants to make it an acceptable 3 way, with Tara flipped?
 

CaliforniaBlues310

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Apr 9, 2013
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San Pedro, CA.
His contributions on the PP were elite three seasons ago and should remain strong for another few years (not six though). You're truly insulted that he'd be labeled for the second pair/as a specialist? Defensively he is a weak link, there's no way around it. Last year's Colorado series also happened. He was forced to play against top forwards and it was like two different sports were being played. He is a little guy. Now and going forward he's a PP specialist 4/5 for a contender or a 3 on an average team. He's a top pair guy on a non-playoff team.

If the Blues were a contender with him as a #3 which he is right now, would this thread exist?


I agree that his contract isn’t going to age well on the final couple years.

However, I also never said he wasn’t a 2nd pair guy, or an offensive specialist. I had issue with the bordering on 4/5 guy for a contender, when he’s legitimately proven that’s not the case.

That indicates he’s the weak link on the second pair, or that he should be on the third pairing. That’s extremely disrespectful for a guy who was on pace for 50 points in an absolute down year for him. Outside of Tampa, who has an extremely unbalanced D-core on the left side, I can’t think of a single team where he’d be a 5.

Parayko being either out, or playing injured, was the worst thing that could’ve happened for him, Faulk, and Scandella.

I do think you’re a great poster, and have been the entire time I’ve been on this site, but I just think that the Krug hate is exactly how the Faulk hate was last year, and it’s absolutely tiresome for me.

It’s definitely NOT just you, but it’s seemingly the fair amount of posters who did the same exact thing a year ago. The recency bias in this league is becoming absolutely ridiculous, and it’s not just this site.
 

Reality Czech

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That's not how this works. Some teams have 3 top pairing defenseman, some teams have 0. The amount of teams in the league does not dictate how many players are good enough to be considered a top pairing defenseman.

I'm not biased towards or against Krug to be honest. I think he was alright last year and I'm optimistic about him playing better this year given that he's settled in and it appears as though it will be a fairly normal season. However, I am of the opinion that in order for a player to be a top pairing defenseman, you have to be able to play solid defense against the opposition's best. And if you can't do that, you better be putting up points at a near PPG pace to make up for it. Last year Krug was on pace for just 3 goals and 51 points over a full season. That's pretty good in terms of assists (goals are lacking), but it's not good enough to make up for his defensive shortcomings if he's going to be a top pairing guy. I'd say his combination of point production and defensive capabilities land him on the 2nd pairing as a high end #3 defenseman who can quarterback a powerplay and be successful with sheltered minutes. Ideally you want him away from your top pairing so he can focus more on his offense. If he has to focus on defending against the other teams' best, he's not playing to his strengths and he's likely going to struggle. But Krug could certainly play on the top pair on many teams around the league, just not on a team that is hoping to contend for a Cup.

That's not how this works? So how many "top-pair" defensemen are there in the league, in your opinion?

Despite his "off" year, he was still 21st in the league in points among d-men. In past seasons, he was consistently in the top 10. He was also 41st in ATOI, in there with guys like Weber, Brodin, Klingbeerg, Pulock and Theodore. Personally, I don't think Krug's defense was THAT bad...certainly not as bad as many Blues fans make it seem like. Also, didn't Krug play on Boston's top pair when they were contending for a Cup? I'd say one can make an argument that Krug is a low-end 1st pair defenseman, but you're entitled to your opinion as well.
 
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PocketNines

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I agree that his contract isn’t going to age well on the final couple years.

However, I also never said he wasn’t a 2nd pair guy, or an offensive specialist. I had issue with the bordering on 4/5 guy for a contender, when he’s legitimately proven that’s not the case.

That indicates he’s the weak link on the second pair, or that he should be on the third pairing. That’s extremely disrespectful for a guy who was on pace for 50 points in an absolute down year for him. Outside of Tampa, who has an extremely unbalanced D-core on the left side, I can’t think of a single team where he’d be a 5.

Parayko being either out, or playing injured, was the worst thing that could’ve happened for him, Faulk, and Scandella.

I do think you’re a great poster, and have been the entire time I’ve been on this site, but I just think that the Krug hate is exactly how the Faulk hate was last year, and it’s absolutely tiresome for me.

It’s definitely NOT just you, but it’s seemingly the fair amount of posters who did the same exact thing a year ago. The recency bias in this league is becoming absolutely ridiculous, and it’s not just this site.
Armstrong is going to be hard pressed to do what he needs to do to make the team a real contender which is acquire a better defender than anyone in the organization now. This mediocre defensive unit is on him. So it's not hate toward Krug from me; I see Krug as an expensive PP luxury on a Blues team with both a cheap internal replacement for that luxury and an expensive glaring need.

Assuming it didn't threaten their cap, a playoff team who has 31yo Krug (what he will be the next playoffs) as its 4th or 5th playoff minutes guy would be getting a valuable contribution there. The entire premise of this thread is that the Blues need a clear top pairing defender to become a contender again. They probably won't get this player because it's very very hard; yet imagine circumstances surprisingly align and the Blues rent Lindholm at the deadline. You would definitely want Lindholm, Parayko, Faulk all getting more minutes than Krug in that scenario. A few months ago, the Blues would have still been steamrolled with a healthy Faulk-Parayko-Krug scheme. The entire thread discussion is premised around Krug getting pushed down to #4 minutes. Anyone who agrees the Blues have a need for a top pair LD is agreeing that to contend for the Cup, the 2022 Blues and beyond can't be giving Krug top 3 playoff minutes. They can give him #3 minutes and not contend for the Cup, which is the current default.
 
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Reality Czech

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Armstrong is going to be hard pressed to do what he needs to do to make the team a real contender which is acquire a better defender than anyone in the organization now. This mediocre defensive unit is on him. So it's not hate toward Krug from me; I see Krug as an expensive PP luxury on a Blues team with both a cheap internal replacement for that luxury and an expensive glaring need.

Assuming it didn't threaten their cap, a playoff team who has 31yo Krug (what he will be the next playoffs) as its 4th or 5th playoff minutes guy would be getting a valuable contribution there. The entire premise of this thread is that the Blues need a clear top pairing defender to become a contender again. They probably won't get this player because it's very very hard; yet imagine circumstances surprisingly align and the Blues rent Lindholm at the deadline. You would definitely want Lindholm, Parayko, Faulk all getting more minutes than Krug in that scenario. A few months ago, the Blues would have still been steamrolled with a healthy Faulk-Parayko-Krug scheme. The entire thread discussion is premised around Krug getting pushed down to #4 minutes. Anyone who agrees the Blues have a need for a top pair LD is agreeing that to contend for the Cup, the 2022 Blues and beyond can't be giving Krug top 3 playoff minutes. They can give him #3 minutes and not contend for the Cup, which is the current default.

The entire premise of the thread can be wrong.

Just so I have this straight...Krug as a #3 = no chance at Cup, Krug as a #4 = Cup contender?

How many teams have 3 defenseman who are better and play more minutes that Krug? I think a team with a healthy Parayko as the top D stopper, Faulk as the two-way guy and Krug as the offensive specialist can do some damage in the postseason, but we need Colt at full strength to have a chance. Not having Parayko at 100% was a much bigger factor in our struggles than Krug was, because Krug was forced to play a more defensive role than he is accustomed to. Despite that, he was still +11 on a team with a -1 goal differential, so I don't think he was nearly as bad as some fans make it seem.
 

Ledge And Dairy

Registered User
The entire premise of the thread can be wrong.

Just so I have this straight...Krug as a #3 = no chance at Cup, Krug as a #4 = Cup contender?

How many teams have 3 defenseman who are better and play more minutes that Krug? I think a team with a healthy Parayko as the top D stopper, Faulk as the two-way guy and Krug as the offensive specialist can do some damage in the postseason, but we need Colt at full strength to have a chance. Not having Parayko at 100% was a much bigger factor in our struggles than Krug was, because Krug was forced to play a more defensive role than he is accustomed to. Despite that, he was still +11 on a team with a -1 goal differential, so I don't think he was nearly as bad as some fans make it seem.
My understanding of this thread is St. Louis needs a top 4 caliber LD that can play a shutdown role because Scandella is not good enough (not my opinion just what I think is being said). It's not that Krug is a #4, it's more that they can't be writing off the season if Parayko goes down.

As for Krug's defensive game, he may have been +11 but he was still not strong defensively as he had a negative GA/60, xGA/60, and CF/60
 
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Jerkbait

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Marcus Pettersson probably makes a lot sense if they need a shutdown guy
Wow you obviously have not watched much penguin hockey over the last couple seasons. He is currently on the third pair in Pitt and the most likey player to be sent out. He is a bottom pair guy on an inflated contract. Has the size somewhat but incredibly soft in front of his own net. Not the best skater and while still fairly young his progress hasn't devolved. The blues already have better
 

Ledge And Dairy

Registered User
Wow you obviously have not watched much penguin hockey over the last couple seasons. He is currently on the third pair in Pitt and the most likey player to be sent out. He is a bottom pair guy on an inflated contract. Has the size somewhat but incredibly soft in front of his own net. Not the best skater and while still fairly young his progress hasn't devolved. The blues already have better
Im not calling him a #1, I'm calling him a top 4 shut down guy, which he is more than capable of.
 

TK 421

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I can't see how anyone could look at the Blues LD objectively and say, "Yup, looks good let's roll with it."
 
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PocketNines

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The entire premise of the thread can be wrong.

Just so I have this straight...Krug as a #3 = no chance at Cup, Krug as a #4 = Cup contender?

How many teams have 3 defenseman who are better and play more minutes that Krug? I think a team with a healthy Parayko as the top D stopper, Faulk as the two-way guy and Krug as the offensive specialist can do some damage in the postseason, but we need Colt at full strength to have a chance. Not having Parayko at 100% was a much bigger factor in our struggles than Krug was, because Krug was forced to play a more defensive role than he is accustomed to. Despite that, he was still +11 on a team with a -1 goal differential, so I don't think he was nearly as bad as some fans make it seem.
The entire premise of the thread is 100% correct. Yes, I am saying that Parayko-Faulk-Krug is not a contending defense if that's your top 3. I have quite literally said multiple times that when 31+ yo Krug is your #3 playoff minutes player you have an average defense. I cannot possibly underline this more.

I fully grasp that you want to talk this trio – assuming perfect health – into being more than average in the playoffs. I fully grasp a lot of you think this way. It's just that you are not right. I don't know what to tell you. Krug and Faulk are smaller players, who cannot withstand the Mackinnons and Rantanens of the Cup contender world. As things stand Faulk is the #1 because Parayko does not have the offense. Faulk as #1 is not a Cup contender. Parayko as #1 is not a Cup contender. I understand that Armstrong had a press conference where he announced Parayko had developed into a #1 defenseman, but that is not how development works, the GM can't just announce you're a different player or announce you have offense.

There is an idea floated by some that simply tweaking the second pair into an upgrade gets the job done, but that is total denial of reality.
 

BleedBlue14

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I can't see how anyone could look at the Blues LD objectively and say, "Yup, looks good let's roll with it."

I don’t think it’s good, but I don’t think it’s horrible. We’re probably right below league average at the position. However, I don’t think we’re much worse off than last season (which to be fair, our defense outside of Faulk wasn’t all that great)
 

Stealth JD

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I understand that Armstrong had a press conference where he announced Parayko had developed into a #1 defenseman, but that is not how development works, the GM can't just announce you're a different player or announce you have offense.

Images of Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy immediately spring to mind. Doug Armstrong declares him a "#1 DEFENSEMAN!!!", and Parayko is like:

power-of-grayskull-power-sword.gif


As for the premise of the thread, I too think the Blues need their Lindholm-sized hole on LHD filled in order to be a Cup Contender. No combination of Scandella, Krug, Walman or Mikkola are going to sufficiently eat all of the top-4 LHD minutes. I like Hanifin, Chychrun and even Ekholm in that spot too, when looking at playoff bubble-teams who may be talked into selling at the deadline. But the current group of defenders is primed to get run over in the playoffs once again, just as Colorado cut through them like a hot knife in warm butter last spring.
 
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PocketNines

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My understanding of this thread is St. Louis needs a top 4 caliber LD that can play a shutdown role because Scandella is not good enough (not my opinion just what I think is being said). It's not that Krug is a #4, it's more that they can't be writing off the season if Parayko goes down.

As for Krug's defensive game, he may have been +11 but he was still not strong defensively as he had a negative GA/60, xGA/60, and CF/60
For some Blues fans, upgrading Scandella slightly is what the defense needs. If that's what readers are getting out of the thread then the thread is pointless. It's not titled anything like "Blues desperately need to tweak their second pair." They have an average team with strong offense and vulnerable average defense. The goal is not to "compete in the arena" it's to win the thing and to do that they have to get a major impact defender. It's super straightforward, even if executing that maneuver is very difficult.
 
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Ledge And Dairy

Registered User
For some Blues fans, upgrading Scandella slightly is what the defense needs. If that's what readers are getting out of the thread then the thread is pointless. It's not titled anything like "Blues desperately need to tweak their second pair." They have an average team with strong offense and vulnerable average defense. The goal is not to "compete in the arena" it's to win the thing and to do that they have to get a major impact defender. It's super straightforward, even if executing that maneuver is very difficult.
Then go all in for Ekholm at the deadline.
 

Jerkbait

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Im not calling him a #1, I'm calling him a top 4 shut down guy, which he is more than capable of.
Nope. Try again. He fell out of that role in Pittsburgh and found himself 9n the third pairing. If petterson is in your top 4 , your defense is pretty weak . He lacks the physicality to be a shutdown D. He is pushed off puck with ease. His best weapon is a decent stick. Ill point out even right on he finds himself again outside the top 4 on a very average D team in Pitt
 

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