OT: Blues #1 goaltender Allen vs. Hutton?

[TruBlu]

Jake was once the next big thing coming in. Husso has proven nothing, he may be the next big bust. Most people have conceded Jake hasn't been near good enough, but a few Allen haters always put the focus back on Allen. No goalie in the league will help this team until they start scoring. I'm open to trying anything at this point just to get off of this god awful constant return to the same old narrative. Let Hutton start every game the rest of the year. I'll be interested to see who the next whipping boy is if things don't improve.

 

[carter333167]

This is as much for discussion as anything else but let's look at the game last night:

Allen faced 23 shots
Hellebuyck faced 34 shots.

Allen has been average to poor with his positioning throughout this season (he pretty much reverted entirely from what he and Brodeur worked on last season--this was noticeable early in the season).

Hellebuyck last night was exceptional in his positioning. Exceptional positioning means easier looking saves and less net at which to shoot. Not all of those saves were easy saves but his exceptional positioning made them look easy.

If Hellbuyck faces the same 23 shots Allen saw last night, he probably stops all but one of them (based upon how on point he was positionally against our shooters). Both wristers were the result of poor positioning--even Federko as much as said so in the postgame and he RARELY criticizes our goalies. The PP rebound was a borderline poor rebound caused by lack of confidence. A confident Jake probably swallows that rebound.

If Allen faces the 34 shots Hellebuyck saw, I seriously doubt he pitches a shut-out....probably gives up 2-3 goals.

A large part of the reason we didn't score last night was exceptional play from Helle. He simply outplayed Jake by a fairly large margin.

In any case, Jake looked really shaken in his postgame interview. I felt bad for him...he just seems a bit lost in net at the moment.

 

[carter333167]

There actual is science to goaltending...and it's largely about positioning and moving from position to position.

This is an interesting piece of analysis on Jake last year under Brodeur:

Jake Allen's rotation adjustment under Martin Brodeur - InGoal Magazine

 

[BlueDream]

I think Allen is Halak 2.0 really.

They are pretty similar in the fact that they both had one good year in the playoffs and then after that were extremely inconsistent and accomplished nothing.

Of course it's still a bit early to say that for Allen, but that's my prediction on where he's headed.

 

[Captain Creampuff]

I think Allen is Halak 2.0 really.

They are pretty similar in the fact that they both had one good year in the playoffs and then after that were extremely inconsistent and accomplished nothing.

Of course it's still a bit early to say that for Allen, but that's my prediction on where he's headed.

Both constantly injured and can go on a decent hot streak here and there but they are both athletic goaltenders who's positioning and rebound control is awful. Goalies like Brian Elliott and Carter Hutton work well because they are positional goaltenders and just eat the pucks up. Jake Allen's career with the Blues when you take off the Blue-tinted glasses of his some highlight reel saves, he's a bad goalie. I haven't been a fan of Allen since his AHL days.

EDIT: Just think what kind of position we would be in if Hutton hadn't gone beast mode this year.

 

[BlueDream]

Both constantly injured and can go on a decent hot streak here and there but they are both athletic goaltenders who's positioning and rebound control is awful. Goalies like Brian Elliott and Carter Hutton work well because they are positional goaltenders and just eat the pucks up. Jake Allen's career with the Blues when you take off the Blue-tinted glasses of his some highlight reel saves, he's a bad goalie. I haven't been a fan of Allen since his AHL days.

EDIT: Just think what kind of position we would be in if Hutton hadn't gone beast mode this year.

Yep. Exactly like how Elliott had to fill in for Halak and Allen when they struggled.

It's crazy how all the years through this goalie rotation we are still in the same exact spot.

As good as Hutton has been, I think next season we just have to bite the bullet and let either Husso or even Binnington back up to save some money and see what they've got.

 

[Ranksu]

I think there lies some truth that team front of him will play badly when Allen isn't playing his A+ level. It tells me that players don't trust him and they are overly securing that any shot doesn't get througt and overall it will only look like a mess at d-zone.

One side note is that Allen isn't his goaltending style best fit our system. He's too aggressively committed and isn't positionally sounded and lack of good rebound control. This might sound biased opinion, but Ville Husso is totally opposite goaltender then Allen, he rely on his position, is good rebounds and can track puck well behind players, great example of his style is calm and unnoticeable style. Isn't any way flashy goaltender like Allen. Husso will fit perfectly in Yeo's system and what we've saw Blues defence showed past seasons.

 

[Novacain]

I think there's a nice happy medium on our stance of this team right now. Our offense sucks, and Jake Allen has sucked. And people keep wanting to say "well the team played bad in front of him", but he's only allowed less then 2 goals ONCE since December 10th, and that was against Vancouver, who isn't too great at this hockey thing.

I have basically came to the mindset that this team right now has too many holes to assume we can just be fixed by the end of the year. Sell off pieces you don't need, re-tool for next year, but don't go full rebuild mode.

 

[kimzey59]

I think there's a nice happy medium on our stance of this team right now. Our offense sucks, and Jake Allen has sucked. And people keep wanting to say "well the team played bad in front of him", but he's only allowed less then 2 goals ONCE since December 10th, and that was against Vancouver, who isn't too great at this hockey thing.

I have basically came to the mindset that this team right now has too many holes to assume we can just be fixed by the end of the year. Sell off pieces you don't need, re-tool for next year, but don't go full rebuild mode.

What team are you following?

NOBODY is giving Allen any slack. Doesn't matter if we are shut out; the loss is on Allen.

Honestly, I tend to agree with Vladdy and Petro that St. Louis is unreasonably harsh towards our goalies. I keep hearing the tripe that "goalies need to steal games", but I rarely hear people blast our forwards for not scoring goals; and when our D gives up a terrible turnover it's always "the goalie should have saved that to keep us in the game". St. Louis fans have very unrealistic expectations for the goaltending position and right now Allen is getting the full force of it.

If I'm being honest; I can't even fairly judge Allen and Hutton the past 10 games because our play in front of them has been that bad. Turnovers in the crease; breakaways from mishandled pucks at the point; odd man breaks because our forwards aren't making an effort to get back; giving up possession without an effort to fight for the puck. Those have been pretty constant theme's lately and I have a hard time throwing blame at the goalies when we're doing that multiple times per period. I honestly don't know if Allen or Hutton is really in a cold spell right now; the chances we're giving up are goals 90% of the time no matter who the goalie is.

 

[Bluesguru]

What team are you following?

NOBODY is giving Allen any slack. Doesn't matter if we are shut out; the loss is on Allen.

Honestly, I tend to agree with Vladdy and Petro that St. Louis is unreasonably harsh towards our goalies. I keep hearing the tripe that "goalies need to steal games", but I rarely hear people blast our forwards for not scoring goals; and when our D gives up a terrible turnover it's always "the goalie should have saved that to keep us in the game". St. Louis fans have very unrealistic expectations for the goaltending position and right now Allen is getting the full force of it.

If I'm being honest; I can't even fairly judge Allen and Hutton the past 10 games because our play in front of them has been that bad. Turnovers in the crease; breakaways from mishandled pucks at the point; odd man breaks because our forwards aren't making an effort to get back; giving up possession without an effort to fight for the puck. Those have been pretty constant theme's lately and I have a hard time throwing blame at the goalies when we're doing that multiple times per period. I honestly don't know if Allen or Hutton is really in a cold spell right now; the chances we're giving up are goals 90% of the time no matter who the goalie is.

I agree, people here have grown to expect perfect goaltending. I guess the team is so defensively structured and our scoring is so sparse that fans are on edge now at every goal we give up. This team needs a shake up. Whether they find the answers from within the organization or thru a deal or two, this team needs some juice.

 

[stl76]

I think it's interesting that folks trying to point out how horrible Allen has been playing choose a date (December 10th) when the entire team started sucking. Nothing happened to Allen on that date, so why choose that as the date to split Allen's performance?

Not trying to say Allen has been good, or even decent lately...guess I just don't think that selecting a date when the entire team started sucking is a good argument for singling out any one player.

 

[Novacain]

The idea that we as Blues fans have grown to used to perfect goaltending might be the most insane take I've seen on this board. WE ARE BLUES FANS! The best goaltender we've had in the last 20 years was Brian Freaking Elliot, and 2nd place is a tossup between Chris Osgood, Chris Mason, Jaroslav Halak, and Jake Allen. Save for a couple runs from Elliot and this from Hutton we have not had elite goaltending at almost any point in our franchises history. We don't need Jake Allen to be perfect, but if he could stop giving in a soft goalie just about every single time he plays, that would be awesome. If his positioning wasn't in the debate for worst among all starters in the NHL right now, that would also be awesome. I can't give full points to the "Well if our offense showed up maybe Allen wouldn't have looked so bad!" when Allen has consistently looked pretty bad for over 2 months now. As said, our forwards right now are crap, but that does not excuse we've done this same song and dance with Allen in both the years he was supposed to be locked into being our No.1 goalie.

 

[Reality Czech]

The idea that we as Blues fans have grown to used to perfect goaltending might be the most insane take I've seen on this board. WE ARE BLUES FANS! The best goaltender we've had in the last 20 years was Brian Freaking Elliot, and 2nd place is a tossup between Chris Osgood, Chris Mason, Jaroslav Halak, and Jake Allen. Save for a couple runs from Elliot and this from Hutton we have not had elite goaltending at almost any point in our franchises history. We don't need Jake Allen to be perfect, but if he could stop giving in a soft goalie just about every single time he plays, that would be awesome. If his positioning wasn't in the debate for worst among all starters in the NHL right now, that would also be awesome. I can't give full points to the "Well if our offense showed up maybe Allen wouldn't have looked so bad!" when Allen has consistently looked pretty bad for over 2 months now. As said, our forwards right now are crap, but that does not excuse we've done this same song and dance with Allen in both the years he was supposed to be locked into being our No.1 goalie.

The Blues are 22nd in the league in goals scored per game, while allowing the 4th-fewest goals per game. Take that as you will.

Maybe Blues fans are so unrealistic about goaltending because they have never seen an elite goalie play on a regular basis. If they had, they might realize that those guys aren't perfect either. Sure, Jake could be a lot better but it gets annoying seeing so many people focus on that. Most of the playoff-bound teams score more goals per game than the Blues, which is by far our biggest problem right now.

 

[Novacain]

The Blues are 22nd in the league in goals scored per game, while allowing the 4th-fewest goals per game. Take that as you will.

Maybe Blues fans are so unrealistic about goaltending because they have never seen an elite goalie play on a regular basis. If they had, they might realize that those guys aren't perfect either. Sure, Jake could be a lot better but it gets annoying seeing so many people focus on that. Most of the playoff-bound teams score more goals per game than the Blues, which is by far our biggest problem right now.

Maybe we are so high in GAA because Hutton has a freaking 1.86 and .938 save percentage, instead of Allens 2.75 and 9.06.

 

[Stealth JD]

Carter Hutton has saved the Blues bacon this year. The Blues would undoubtedly be trailing Chicago in the standings if he had played at Allen's performance-level this season. Flake Allen is most definitely a problem with this club, I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise.

Sure, the Blues would have a better record if they had a top-10 offense. They'd also have a better record if they didn't have statistically one of the worst starting goaltenders in the entire league.

 

[67Blues]

Agree on Hutton saving the Blues season. If it were not for stellar backup goaltending, we'd be talking about a top 4 pick this year.

I think the frustrating thing is that we can see what Allen can do. He has the tools, although positionally, I don't like his form. But when he can go from being so good to being so bad, and when the team isn't scoring, it really reflects badly.

I think the comparison to Halak might be somewhat valid. Remember when Halak basically stole the 2010 series against Washington? Then they traded him to the Blues and Habs fans couldn't believe it over Price. I suspect they knew what they had in him at the time (both players).

 

[Cotton McKnight]

Allen has been playing out of his mind, literally it's like he's not even on the ice as an NHL this season. It's getting worse each year, and we can't afford it for too many more seasons.

This is Halak 2.0. He had a great run against Minny, but he's not using the right tools in the right situation anymore.

 

[Ranksu]

What you guys think what will happend to off-season? Are we going to re-sign Hutton?

 

[PiggySmalls]

What you guys think what will happend to off-season? Are we going to re-sign Hutton?

Honestly I’d say yes. STL is still close to his house/family/business in Nashville. If he was 4 years younger I can see him chasing a huge payday. But at his age, I just don’t see any other GMs offering sizeable term and money for someone who has spent their whole life as a backup.

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

What you guys think what will happend to off-season? Are we going to re-sign Hutton?

Hutton and Husso being the goalies next season with the eye on Husso taking over and Allen traded for a 3rd round pick.

 

[Evocable Manager]

Hutton and Husso being the goalies next season with the eye on Husso taking over and Allen traded for a 3rd round pick.

That implies someone would want Allen. Which is hard to believe.

 

[PiggySmalls]

That implies someone would want Allen. Which is hard to believe.

I think someone will. Goalie markets are always strange. Too many GM are willing to take fliers on goalies thinking they will turn it around. Like Steve Mason for example.

 

[wannabebluesplayer]

I think someone will. Goalie markets are always strange. Too many GM are willing to take fliers on goalies thinking they will turn it around. Like Steve Mason for example.

I honestly wouldn't be shocked to see Arizona or Edmonton take a shot on him.

 

[PiggySmalls]

I honestly wouldn't be shocked to see Arizona or Edmonton take a shot on him.

Yeah, especially if Raanta doesn’t resign. I wouldn’t be surprised that if Allen is traded the Blues will probably have to take back a goalie. Say Blues trade Allen (late round pick) for someone like Jimmy Howard.

 

[LetsGoBooze]

Hutton and Husso being the goalies next season with the eye on Husso taking over and Allen traded for a 3rd round pick.

This would be my plan, although depending on how he finishes the year, i still think Allen holds more value then a 3rd. Someone will take a flier on him.