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Best Player Post-Mario

Who is the best hockey player, Post Mario Lemieux?

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  • Poll closed .
pegcity

pegcity

Registered User
Feb 9, 2011
1,125
373
Winnipeg
Hockey Outsider said:
The question is phrased "best player". I voted for McDavid because I think he has more inherent talent than Crosby or Ovechkin (not to mention Jagr, who really should be an option) - and I think that's what the poll is getting at.

If the question is who's had the best career (and/or who's the "greatest"), McDavid should obviously be behind Crosby, Ovechkin (and Jagr) at this point. The issue is the question is vague, and people are interpreting it differently.
Click to expand...

I don't know if the question was vague.
Wayne was the best player in the 80s
Mario was the best player post prime Wayne (some consider him better than Wayne)
Post Mario, who is the hockey player in the known universe?

I initially votes for McDavid because of the previous seasons' era-adjusted scoring stats (putting them in the top 10 & 25 all-time offensive seasons). But after looking at the fancy stats, I picked Crosby.

1.Howie Morenz*1901927-28
2.Wayne Gretzky*1701985-86
3.Cooney Weiland*1681929-30
4.Wayne Gretzky*1661984-85
5.Mario Lemieux*1651988-89
6.Wayne Gretzky*1631983-84
7.Frank Boucher*1601929-30
8.Wayne Gretzky*1591982-83
9.Connor McDavid1582020-21
10.Wayne Gretzky*1561981-82
Mario Lemieux*1561995-96
12.Wayne Gretzky*1551986-87
13.Wayne Gretzky*1461990-91
14.Dick Irvin*1451926-27
Frank Boucher*1451928-29
Bill Cook*1451929-30
Jaromír Jágr1451998-99
18.Jaromír Jágr1441995-96
19.Andy Blair1431928-29
20.Phil Esposito*1411970-71
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 
Last edited:
pegcity

pegcity

Registered User
Feb 9, 2011
1,125
373
Winnipeg
Era-adjusted all-time goal scoring (to make the Ovechkin voters happy)

1.Gordie Howe*1946-80925
2.Alex Ovechkin2005-22895
3.Jaromír Jágr1990-18841
4.Wayne Gretzky*1979-99758
5.Teemu Selänne*1992-14741
6.Brett Hull*1986-06738
7.Jarome Iginla*1996-17706
8.Brendan Shanahan*1987-09672
9.Phil Esposito*1963-81671
10.Maurice Richard*1942-60653
11.Luc Robitaille*1986-06652
12.Steve Yzerman*1983-06644
Bobby Hull*1957-80644
14.Joe Sakic*1988-09643
15.Patrick Marleau1997-21637
16.Mark Messier*1979-04628
17.Mario Lemieux*1984-06616
18.Marcel Dionne*1971-89610
19.Mike Gartner*1979-98609
20.Dave Andreychuk*1982-06605
[TBODY] [/TBODY]


This is for one season:
1.Brett Hull*781990-91
2.Alex Ovechkin722007-08
3.Mario Lemieux*711988-89
4.Cooney Weiland*701929-30
Phil Esposito*701970-71
6.Wayne Gretzky*691983-84
7.Babe Dye*681924-25
Wayne Gretzky*681981-82
Steven Stamkos682011-12
10.Howie Morenz*671927-28
Dit Clapper*671929-30
Mario Lemieux*671995-96
Leon Draisaitl672021-22
14.Howie Morenz*651929-30
Gordie Howe*651952-53
Phil Esposito*651971-72
Pavel Bure*652000-01
18.Nels Stewart*641929-30
Phil Esposito*641973-74
Pavel Bure*641999-00
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

For those not happy with the results of the adjustment, the formula is quite easy. What % of the leagues goals did they score per year
 
Randyne

Randyne

Registered User
May 20, 2012
1,203
1,950
pegcity said:
to make the Ovechkin voters happy
Click to expand...
To make everyone happy
Era adjusted goals and points between the three (same source):
NameGoalsSeasonNamePointsSeason
Alex Ovechkin722007-08Connor McDavid1582020-21
Alex Ovechkin622012-13Connor McDavid1412021-22*
Alex Ovechkin602021-22*Alex Ovechkin1272021-22*
Alex Ovechkin602014-15Alex Ovechkin1222007-08
Alex Ovechkin592008-09Sidney Crosby1222006-07
Alex Ovechkin582019-20Alex Ovechkin1172009-10
Alex Ovechkin582013-14Sidney Crosby1172009-10
Alex Ovechkin572015-16Connor McDavid1162018-19
Sidney Crosby562009-10Sidney Crosby1162013-14
Alex Ovechkin552009-10Alex Ovechkin1142008-09
Alex Ovechkin522018-19Connor McDavid1132019-20
Alex Ovechkin522005-06Connor McDavid1102016-17
Alex Ovechkin502017-18Connor McDavid1102017-18
Connor McDavid502021-22*Alex Ovechkin1072012-13
Connor McDavid502020-21Sidney Crosby1062008-09
Sidney Crosby492016-17Sidney Crosby1062012-13
Alex Ovechkin482006-07Alex Ovechkin1042005-06
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Guy in bold and third in voting is not a Canadian.
*Season in progress
 
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wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,582
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JasonRoseEh said:
I'll take an Ovi low over a Crosby no show season any day of the week. Durability matters and also shows his ability to adapt as a player.
Click to expand...

So what no show seasons are you going to compare to Ovi's 11-12 and 13-14 for starters?
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,582
10,364
Randyne said:
To make everyone happy
Era adjusted goals and points between the three (same source):
NameGoalsSeasonNamePointsSeason
Alex Ovechkin722007-08Connor McDavid1582020-21
Alex Ovechkin622012-13Connor McDavid1412021-22*
Alex Ovechkin602021-22*Alex Ovechkin1272021-22*
Alex Ovechkin602014-15Alex Ovechkin1222007-08
Alex Ovechkin592008-09Sidney Crosby1222006-07
Alex Ovechkin582019-20Alex Ovechkin1172009-10
Alex Ovechkin582013-14Sidney Crosby1172009-10
Alex Ovechkin572015-16Connor McDavid1162018-19
Sidney Crosby562009-10Sidney Crosby1162013-14
Alex Ovechkin552009-10Alex Ovechkin1142008-09
Alex Ovechkin522018-19Connor McDavid1132019-20
Alex Ovechkin522005-06Connor McDavid1102016-17
Alex Ovechkin502017-18Connor McDavid1102017-18
Connor McDavid502021-22*Alex Ovechkin1072012-13
Connor McDavid502020-21Sidney Crosby1062008-09
Sidney Crosby492016-17Sidney Crosby1062012-13
Alex Ovechkin482006-07Alex Ovechkin1042005-06
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Guy in bold and third in voting is not a Canadian.
*Season in progress
Click to expand...

Interesting that you are using pace here for the current season.

I don't think that even the most ardent Ovi supporter is going to claim that this is his best offensive season.
 
Randyne

Randyne

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May 20, 2012
1,203
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wetcoast said:
Interesting that you are using pace here for the current season.

I don't think that even the most ardent Ovi supporter is going to claim that this is his best offensive season.
Click to expand...
Just copied from the same source as above (removed everyone except this trio)
NHL & WHA Single Season Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com
NHL & WHA Single Season Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com
Eventually it will change by the end of the season.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,582
10,364
Randyne said:
Just copied from the same source as above (removed everyone except this trio)
NHL & WHA Single Season Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com
NHL & WHA Single Season Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com
Eventually it will change by the end of the season.
Click to expand...

Yes I know where it came from, just found it kind of ironic.

Also if we do their entire careers then put GP beside all seasons we know who will look better overall.

Heck outside of this year both guys have 5 times in the top point sections as well as McDavid.
 
Rengorlex

Rengorlex

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Aug 25, 2021
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pegcity said:
I initially votes for McDavid because of the previous seasons' era-adjusted scoring stats (putting them in the top 10 & 25 all-time offensive seasons). But after looking at the fancy stats, I picked Crosby.
Click to expand...
They seem almost like a coinflip based on most models I've seen.
'
 
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DearDiary

DearDiary

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JasonRoseEh said:
I'll take an Ovi low over a Crosby no show season any day of the week. Durability matters and also shows his ability to adapt as a player.
Click to expand...

Ovechkin put up a 65 point season in his prime
Crosby put up 66 points in half a season

That's an ignorant take considering Crosby spends most shifts playing physical along the boards in both zones and in front of the net. Ovechkin makes human contact 3-5 times a game with a hit, spends most shifts floating in the middle of the ice where he won't take abuse. Ovechkin channels Kessel most shifts except when he sees a vulnerable player.
 
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bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
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If everyone retired today - Crosby has the greatest career since Mario.
By the time everyone retires (minus McDavid) - probably still Crosby, with a very small chance Ovechkin passes him (especially if he continues with the type of season he's having). Unlikely though.

Including McDavid - maybe him, maybe not. He's as talented as any of the names listed here, and with a great start to his career he certainly has the ability to surpass Crosby and Ovechkin's legacy. But - he still has a long way to go. Playoffs. Consistency. Etc. Simply too soon to tell. Flip a coin?

If by "best player" you're looking at peak, more than overall career/legacy - this gets a bit more tricky.

I still want to vote Crosby. I think at his "best", he's as good/better than anyone here. He doesn't have the flagship full peak season that others do (like Ovechkin) - but nothing in the OP limits this to 1 season. Overall level of play, regular season + playoffs, sustained over many years, he's #1 I think. But - it's extremely close. I think Jagr has a hell of a case too by that metric. Ovechkin as well. Hasek. McDavid too (in fact could easily become#1) - but for now I'd rather leave him off for another 2-3 years to see how he pans out. I'd even say that at his very best - Forsberg belongs in this group, but this was sustained over a much shorter period than the others. Lidstrom does good for career/legacy, but for peak he's dead last in this group.
 
JasonRoseEh

JasonRoseEh

Registered User
Oct 23, 2018
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DearDiary said:
Ovechkin put up a 65 point season in his prime
Crosby put up 66 points in half a season

That's an ignorant take considering Crosby spends most shifts playing physical along the boards in both zones and in front of the net. Ovechkin makes human contact 3-5 times a game with a hit, spends most shifts floating in the middle of the ice where he won't take abuse. Ovechkin channels Kessel most shifts except when he sees a vulnerable player.
Click to expand...
I won't even deign this post a response more than this sentence because it's absolute nonsense.
 

bobbyking

Registered User
May 29, 2018
1,862
875
hasek has five top 5 hart finishes and 2 wins..back to back....
which is super bananas....but he won those during lemieuxs peak so hes not really post Mario. if ovi beats Wayne's 894 then hes obviously number 1... I feel people underestimate how much time Crosby missed and when
 
pegcity

pegcity

Registered User
Feb 9, 2011
1,125
373
Winnipeg
TheGoldenJet said:
You list Forsberg but forget about a far superior player in Malkin.

Flawed list.
Click to expand...
I've added Malkin.

You could just ask me to add someone rather than complain about the list.

I've added 5 people to the list since initially only including Ovechkin, Crosby and McDavid. Non of them will win.....
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,582
10,364
JasonRoseEh said:
I won't even deign this post a response more than this sentence because it's absolute nonsense.
Click to expand...

My guess is that you can't find any argument to equate a 41-32-34-66 line to a 78-38-27-65 line because there simply isn't one to be made.
 

Gaud

Registered User
May 11, 2017
1,480
552
hey is it since mario or after his retirement? And if Hasek is in there, shouldnt brodeur and Roy be also?
From what i read, Crosby will win with Ovy in 2nd. Both the best choices IMO
 

centipede2233

Registered User
Sep 13, 2010
4,162
4,466
Sid has won everywhere, world juniors, world hockey championships, 2 Olympic,pic golds and a World Cup, his international record is impeccable, add in 3 cups, even if you have mcdavid as a better skill guy, Crosby is a proven winner. It’s unfortunate mcdavid has gotten the shaft internationally because of COVID, but that’s the breaks. Mcdavid would have to win a couple of cups and a conn smythe to get in the conversation of being better than Sid. I’m just unsure if that will happen atleast not anytime soon…
Sid ovie and mcdavid atm with a likely Sid mcdavid ovie when it’s all said and done. No disrespect to ovie, but he would have to have an incredible 4 plus years to Blake over Sid.
 
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