GDT: Bears at Flames: Dec 15, 7pm MT on SN

[Fig]

Is my memory foggy, or has Johnny played some RW for us over the past calendar year?

Either way, it won't be a major stumbling block. I'm okay sticking with the lines as is for now; 10 game winning streaks are excellent, not willing to hit the panic button quite yet.

I don't think JG has played RW for us. All the RW was Hudler and a rotating carousel of players.

Tkachuk experimented successfully playing RW in Junior.

JG - Mony - MT was the proposed line I believe.

 

[Sparky93]

The streak coming to an end right now and Stones injury, as long as it's short term, might be the best thing that's happened to this team. 9 points up on LA, we're in a good spot. Resting a few players wouldn't be a bad thing either and that wouldn't happen on a win streak.

A return of a healthy Stone, for the last 6 games and a hungry, angry Flames team heading into the playoffs could be a real recipe for success. I'd much rather have that than a very young, over confident team rolling in, thinking they're unbeatable.

 

[Sparky93]

His hands are fine; he just isn't using them properly. Go back and watch some of his scoring plays, especially from last season: his mitts might not be the silkiest, but they're certainly not burlap. The issue that I've constantly seen with Bennett, from day one, is that he plays like he's in juniors and overestimates his ability to get through traffic/around defenders. He needs to adapt and take the openings that come to him, rather than trying to force everything; and if he can't find an opening, he needs to hold onto the puck a little longer.

I disagree completely. I think he's a player with elite skill, average hockey sense, that never learned how to utilize his line mates properly, at the lower levels, because his skill allowed him to be dominant without them.

 

[Calculon]

If the Flames want to reduce Bennett's instinctive 'do-it-by-himself' approach then the last thing they should be doing is pairing him up with a blackhole like Brouwer or a inconsistent perimeter player like Versteeg. Unfortunately, nothing can be done right now as Bennett's not supplanting Monahan or Backlund and the Flames a little short on high quality wingers.

And moving Bennett to the wing would be the dumbest thing Flames could do given he only looked proficient there when playing alongside Backlund. Compensate for the Backlund bump and it's clear as day that Bennett's a better centre than winger. But deeply entrenched biases are hard to overcome.

Anyway, it's a short term problem that gets blown into mass-hysteria as a result of fans impatience. Much like what happened with Backlund, Bennett will improve over time, of which the Flames have an absolute abundance of. Moreover, once the deadweight and stop gaps in Brouwer and Versteeg are shed and hopefully, skilled age-appropriate complementary pieces are added, the third line will become the second line or even a 1B.

Longterm, the framework is solid:

Gaudreau-Monahan-XXX/Ferland
Tkachuk-Bennett-Ferland/XXX
Frolik-Backlund-Lazar/XXX

There's a ton of permutations from that lineup, and a few of those are likely to actually work. Bennett still has the highest offensive potential of any centre in the system and it's okay if it takes him a little longer to reach it. Aside from Backlund, Scheifele, Wennberg, Galchenyuk, Johansen, and Couture are other examples the anxious prone folks should look to. None of those players broke out until they were 21 or older.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

I disagree completely. I think he's a player with elite skill, average hockey sense, that never learned how to utilize his line mates properly, at the lower levels, because his skill allowed him to be dominant without them.

Sounds like you're agreeing with me: the problem is in his head, not with his physical ability.

I also agree with Calculon: he needs someone other than Brouwer on his wing. I don't mind Versteeg being there, because Versteeg is a smart player who tends to be decent at finding open ice, but Bennett does need another linemate he can rely on to be open for him.

 

[Sparky93]

[mod]

I think a lot of it has to do expectations. Personally, I expected Bennett to be pushing for 50 points this year. To me, he's been a much bigger disappointment this year than Brouwer, because I didn't expect much from him to begin with. Maybe my expectations were a little lofty, but I'd still rank Bennett's play this season as one of the biggest disappointments. I'm not defending the Brouwer contract, if we can get out of it, we should, but he hasn't been a total disappointment, for the simple fact that expectations were low to begin with. I'd also like to add/speculate that Brouwer has had a huge impact on the room. It's been years since I've seen them this loose.

 

[Sparky93]

Sounds like you're agreeing with me: the problem is in his head, not with his physical ability.

I also agree with Calculon: he needs someone other than Brouwer on his wing. I don't mind Versteeg being there, because Versteeg is a smart player who tends to be decent at finding open ice, but Bennett does need another linemate he can rely on to be open for him.

Sorry, yes, more or less. It was directed at the post you were replying to.

 

[YourAverageFan*]

Bennett didn't do **** with Gaudreau either, I don't see why golden boy automatically gets a pass. He's been bad with every line mate he'shad this year. But I know I know "highest draft pick ever" so no one will actually call him out for his ****** play and do nothing but make excuses and blame his linemates.

So you have no problem calling Bennett out for his **** play, yet you go and hide once we ask you why you have no problem with Brouwer?

Bennett wouldn't look so bad if he didn't have to try to do everything himself because he's stuck with 2 terrible even strength players (at least Versteeg is actually decent on the PP)

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

It's funny when Monahan plays with Versteeg and Brouwer and had success, it's 'oh look at Monahan needing to play with a skilled playmaker (Versteeg) to have success'. But when it's Bennett 'OMG Versteeg and Brouwer are boat anchors how can Bennett have any success?'

You guys crack me up. Bennett just isn't a dangerous player offensively yet. the odd game sure, but they are few and far between.

 

[HAKAN LOOB]

It's funny when Monahan plays with Versteeg and Brouwer and had success, it's 'oh look at Monahan needing to play with a skilled playmaker (Versteeg) to have success'. But when it's Bennett 'OMG Versteeg and Brouwer are boat anchors how can Bennett have any success?'

You guys crack me up. Bennett just isn't a dangerous player offensively yet. the odd game sure, but they are few and far between.

Thing is, Monahan DOES need skilled playmakers. It's not even a knock on him, its just that the game he plays, benefits when he's got high IQ players on the ice with him.

The worst he's ever looked was when he was on a line with Curtis Glencross and David Jones. Ya know, a pair of middle six grinders.

 

[Dack]

It's funny when Monahan plays with Versteeg and Brouwer and had success, it's 'oh look at Monahan needing to play with a skilled playmaker (Versteeg) to have success'. But when it's Bennett 'OMG Versteeg and Brouwer are boat anchors how can Bennett have any success?'

You guys crack me up. Bennett just isn't a dangerous player offensively yet. the odd game sure, but they are few and far between.

Monahan didn't find success with them at all. Looking at the analytics the Monahan Brouwer Versteeg pairing was actually slightly worse than when Bennett centers them. Monahan got some puck luck and scored a few goals but that line was still terrible, and the wingers are dragging both Bennett and Monahan down when they play with them. They're such a bad pairing they might be able to make Backlund look bad.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Thing is, Monahan DOES need skilled playmakers. It's not even a knock on him, its just that the game he plays, benefits when he's got high IQ players on the ice with him.

The worst he's ever looked was when he was on a line with Curtis Glencross and David Jones. Ya know, a pair of middle six grinders.

I don't disagree.

But Monahan has high, high, end finishing ability. If you can't or don't get him a playmaker to take advantage of that, then you are a bad coach.

Just like Johnny needs to play with guys who can put the puck in the net. Or you aren't using his skills properly (see Chiasson)

As much criticism as Monahan takes on this site, he's actually the perfect fit for Gaudreau and they actually help each others best attributes out.

I'm also guessing Monahan's underlying numbers are improving even though I don't care for fancy stats when I can use my eyeballs to tell me how players are playing.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Monahan didn't find success with them at all. Looking at the analytics the Monahan Brouwer Versteeg pairing was actually slightly worse than when Bennett centers them. Monahan got some puck luck and scored a few goals but that line was still terrible, and the wingers are dragging both Bennett and Monahan down when they play with them. They're such a bad pairing they might be able to make Backlund look bad.

Again. As hard as this is to understand for people.

Hockey isn't won by shot metrics. It's won by scoring goals.

if you can't produce you aren't that great at hockey; doesn't matter how many shots you get. (Why teams like Philly and Carolina suck, no scorers to finish their shots) If you produce a lot and keep the other team off the score board a lot, it doesn't matter how many shots you give up.

That's why players that capitalize on their chances more often (Monahan for example) need less chances and therefor less shots to produce more offence.

And anyone that thinks all shots equal out over time, or that all shooters are equal is a nut case.

You take Lance Bouma and let him shoot 15 times. I'll take Sean Monahan let him shoot 15 times and we'll see who scores more goals.

 

[Dack]

Again. As hard as this is to understand for people.

Hockey isn't won by shot metrics. It's won by scoring goals.

if you can't produce you aren't that great at hockey; doesn't matter how many shots you get. (Why teams like Philly and Carolina suck, no scorers to finish their shots) If you produce a lot and keep the other team off the score board a lot, it doesn't matter how many shots you give up.

That's why players that capitalize on their chances more often (Monahan for example) need less chances and therefor less shots to produce more offence.

And anyone that thinks all shots equal out over time, or that all shooters are equal is a nut case.

You take Lance Bouma and let him shoot 15 times. I'll take Sean Monahan let him shoot 15 times and we'll see who scores more goals.

I'm saying they wouldn't have kept producing xGf% takes shot quality into account and they got slaughtered in it just like the Bennett line. They still did worse than the Bennett line in terms of goals for and against. If Monahan stayed with those wingers he wouldn't be having the success he is now, just like if he was still getting the puck luck he was with them on Johnny's line he'd be at 30+ goals right now. Again these wingers have dragged down both of Monahan and Bennett.

 

[Fig]

Sounds like you're agreeing with me: the problem is in his head, not with his physical ability.

I also agree with Calculon: he needs someone other than Brouwer on his wing. I don't mind Versteeg being there, because Versteeg is a smart player who tends to be decent at finding open ice, but Bennett does need another linemate he can rely on to be open for him.

I really think a Matt Stajan winger experiment could work well.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I'm saying they wouldn't have kept producing xGf% takes shot quality into account and they got slaughtered in it just like the Bennett line. They still did even worse than the Bennett line is even better in terms of goals for and against. If Monahan stayed with those wingers he wouldn't be having the success he is now, just like if he was still getting the puck luck he was with them on Johnny's line he'd be at 30+ goals right now. Again these wingers have dragged down both of Monahan and Bennett.

Again. You're assuming shots will equal out over time. When clearly they don't.

When over time, Monahan has consistently showed he will break what the shot metrics suggest should happen and that he will produce at a solid rate regardless.

Hence, he is able to produce while Bennett isn't. And it's as simple as Monahan has NHL level finishing ability and Bennett doesn't, yet.

Regardless of what the stat trends say SHOULD happen. Monahan doesn't really follow trends because he's such an elite player offensively.

This is the key piece of information 'stat guys' tend to miss IMO.

Stat people see a guy with poor shot metrics. I see a guy who has 2 or 3 glorious scoring chances a game that is as dangerous as anyone in the league from 10 feet.

 

[Calculon]

Breaking news: 22 year old Sean Monahan is better than 20 year old Sam Bennett

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Breaking news: 22 year old Sean Monahan is better than 20 year old Sam Bennett

20 year old Monahan was the #1C leading his team to the playoffs....

Bennett has been poor. He shows signs of improving.

Just tired of all the junk Monahan has taken because of shot metrics when almost no one criticizes Bennett where criticism is probably warranted.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Breaking news: 22 year old Sean Monahan is better than 20 year old Sam Bennett

20 year old Monahan was better than 20 year old Sam Bennett as well.

 

[Tofveve]

I'll second it.

I think that's a pass

 

[Tofveve]

His hands are fine; he just isn't using them properly. Go back and watch some of his scoring plays, especially from last season: his mitts might not be the silkiest, but they're certainly not burlap. The issue that I've constantly seen with Bennett, from day one, is that he plays like he's in juniors and overestimates his ability to get through traffic/around defenders. He needs to adapt and take the openings that come to him, rather than trying to force everything; and if he can't find an opening, he needs to hold onto the puck a little longer.

I disagree.

He has all the other skills of an elite player except for his hands, which are average at best.

He's shifty, has great quick movement, skates well, has excellent hockey IQ/positioning, but, unlike where he got away with it at the junior level, he's unable to maneuver and deke out NHL calibre opponents consistently when in close. That to me looks like he's trying force plays through the middle or opponents. He just isn't demonstrating that hand skill (call it silkiness or whatever). Elite players have it. I don't see it in Sam, unfortunately.

And just to clarify, because he is still so young still, I'm not ruling him growing more as a player and maybe even rounding out into a 2nd line centre.

 

[Calculon]

Monahan at 20 played with Gaudreau and Hudler full time, along with ample powerplay time (averaged 2:50 per game). Bennett gets Brouwer and Versteeg for the majority of the season while seeing limited time on the powerplay (averages 1:12). Brouwer, who averages 2:39 per game, has the same number of powerplay goals on the season as Bennett at 3.

Monahan made a rebuilding team with extremely shallow depth down the middle allowing for a clear cut focus on development. Bennett made a team that suddenly thought it was a playoff contender with two clear cut centres better than him already on the roster. Moreover, when Monahan was drafted, he was considered fairly close to being NHL ready. Bennett on the other hand

People continue to expect way too much way too quickly. Yes, Monahan was better earlier on but guys like him tend to be the exception, not the norm. And as hard as it hard to factor in, situational circumstances matter. The fact that Bennett at 20 can't carry two third liners on his back is considered a knock on his potential is wholly absurd; and a sign of the extreme impatience same have.

But again, all of this is just a repeat of the Backlund saga so I can't say I'm surprised to see Bennett already being criticized on his hands, hockey IQ, etc.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

I really think a Matt Stajan winger experiment could work well.

I wouldn't mind seeing that. I doubt we do, though, because Stajan has proved quite valuable on a 4th line that acts as a reasonably effective checking line.

I disagree.

He has all the other skills of an elite player except for his hands, which are average at best.

He's shifty, has great quick movement, skates well, has excellent hockey IQ/positioning, but, unlike where he got away woth it at the junior level, he's unable to maneuver and deke out NHL calibre opponents consistently when in close. That to me looks like he's trying force plays through the middle or opponents. He just isn't demonstrating that hand skill (call it silkiness or whatever). Elite players have it. I don't see it in Sam, unfortunately.

And just to clarify, because he is still so young still, I'm not ruling him growing more as a player and maybe even rounding out into a 2nd line centre.

We might be saying similar things in a different way. Bennett obviously doesn't have Gaudreau-level stick skills, but he's easily better in that area than a guy like Monahan, for example.

The issue I see with Bennett is that his style doesn't suit his current skillset. He reminds me a lot of Malkin, stylistically: a lot of dangles right into the middle of the ice, passes through traffic, and a very aggressive offensive game. The problem is that he clearly does not have the same level of puck handling, puck protection, strength, or passing ability to be able to successfully do that enough to be effective at all. That's why I say the problem is with his head. Bennett needs to get a better understanding of his limitations and play within them; he needs to give his opponents more respect when he's on the offence and realize that he generally won't be able to rip through the D and score (he does occasionally, but it's like a <5% success rate).

 

[Tofveve]

I wouldn't mind seeing that. I doubt we do, though, because Stajan has proved quite valuable on a 4th line that acts as a reasonably effective checking line.



We might be saying similar things in a different way. Bennett obviously doesn't have Gaudreau-level stick skills, but he's easily better in that area than a guy like Monahan, for example.

The issue I see with Bennett is that his style doesn't suit his current skillset. He reminds me a lot of Malkin, stylistically: a lot of dangles right into the middle of the ice, passes through traffic, and a very aggressive offensive game. The problem is that he clearly does not have the same level of puck handling, puck protection, strength, or passing ability to be able to successfully do that enough to be effective at all. That's why I say the problem is with his head. Bennett needs to get a better understanding of his limitations and play within them; he needs to give his opponents more respect when he's on the offence and realize that he generally won't be able to rip through the D and score (he does occasionally, but it's like a <5% success rate).

Ah, okay. That sounds like something I'm more onside with. Certainly when a player isn't playing within his skill set that's a head issue. So I agree on that.

I'll also agree with others that I'm not so fond of either of his line-mates. So then his forcing things gets ratcheted up a notch.

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

20 year old Monahan was better than 20 year old Sam Bennett as well.

Big if true