Speculation: Babcock's Future - Post Playoff Talk.

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Suntouchable13

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Dec 20, 2003
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Yeah. Just like the last coach who was questioned by the whole team resulting in the lunatics running the assylum.

Not the players, the media questioning him. When you ask him something, he doesn't have any answers. "Why was Patrick Marleau out there so much?" "Because we felt he should be out there" f*** off! The guy is stubborn old mule and I want him out of here. I am sick of old retreads living off some past glory who think they are all that.
 
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Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,303
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St. Paul, MN
Dubas made the Kessel deal, he got schooled into retaining over 1 mil per year salary, stop this "he's just come onboard" narrative, he's been involved in one way or another since before Lou arrived.

Actually, more recent journalist reports seem to suggest Shanny was the one who was the guy running the negotiations for that one.

Shanny seemed to have a personal dislike of Kessel. While never publicly announced it seemed as if he was the reason kessel doesn't get any sort of video tribute during his first game back at the ACC
 

Fakejake51

Registered User
Aug 8, 2015
212
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Not the players, the media questioning him. When you ask him something, he doesn't have any answers. "Why was Patrick Marleau out there so much?" "Because we felt he should be out there" **** off! The guy is stubborn old mule and I want him out of here. I am sick of old retreads living off some past glory who think they are all that.
What’s wrong with thinking Marleau should be out there? His line wasn’t a minus 12 or even a minus 7. In the playoffs you need guys that aren’t gonna get outworked and out scored. Look at line 1 and 2 for that. Poorly built team isn’t on Babcock.
 

Mess

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Feb 27, 2002
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Dubas is itching to put in his boy Sheldon Keefe as soon as the Marlies season ends as he is currently auditioning for the job.

Babcock will land on his feet being named the Oilers new bench boss and get the privilege of coaching Connor McDavid.

With the Leafs pending cap situation this would be a good thing to get out now, before he has to go down with the ship.
 

rumman

Registered User
Sep 10, 2008
13,859
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Actually, more recent journalist reports seem to suggest Shanny was the one who was the guy running the negotiations for that one.

Shanny seemed to have a personal dislike of Kessel. While never publicly announced it seemed as if he was the reason kessel doesn't get any sort of video tribute during his first game back at the ACC
first I've heard of this theory, what journalists are saying this? I've no doubt Shanahan didn't like Kessel, but I'm very curious on who's saying he did the trade.
 

Sypher04

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
11,650
9,941
Yes.
We didn't get pushed around.
Agreed
But.
This current team will never win four rounds in the playoffs.
Too soft.
Period.
Ya just gotta watch.

Such a cop out. Just gotta watch. I watched every minute of this series and plenty of several others. Our physicality and grit were not the reason we lost. Period.
 
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FraumBallard

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Dec 9, 2018
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Such a cop out. Just gotta watch. I watched every minute of this series and plenty of several others. Our physicality and grit were not the reason we lost. Period.
If you watch and don't see that we're way too soft.
I would suggest watching more closely.
 

Peasy

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May 25, 2012
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Dubas is itching to put in his boy Sheldon Keefe as soon as the Marlies season ends as he is currently auditioning for the job.

Babcock will land on his feet being named the Oilers new bench boss and get the privilege of coaching Connor McDavid.

With the Leafs pending cap situation this would be a good thing to get out now, before he has to go down with the ship.
Such a shame. Only three playoff chances and its already time to restart the rebuild.

At least Babs would be going to a much better situation in Edmonton, lucky for him.
 

Pookie

Wear a mask
Oct 23, 2013
16,172
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Not the players, the media questioning him. When you ask him something, he doesn't have any answers. "Why was Patrick Marleau out there so much?" "Because we felt he should be out there" **** off! The guy is stubborn old mule and I want him out of here. I am sick of old retreads living off some past glory who think they are all that.

Past glory implies you’ve had success before. Why so quick to discount that?

Because Dubas and the young Media are trying to tell you the game has changed?

If it has they clearly haven’t figured it out.

I think I will take the old, successful retreads as opposed to the young no treads living off their parents’ helicopter upbringing and sense of entitlement
 

hullsy47

Registered User
Dec 7, 2005
6,394
1,080
Dubas is itching to put in his boy Sheldon Keefe as soon as the Marlies season ends as he is currently auditioning for the job.

Babcock will land on his feet being named the Oilers new bench boss and get the privilege of coaching Connor McDavid.

With the Leafs pending cap situation this would be a good thing to get out now, before he has to go down with the ship.
dettoit rumor Babcock to Edmonton possible
 

stuart5035

Registered User
Apr 9, 2017
328
338
Talking about firing Babcock is the same old narrow minded approach that kept our team in the doldrums for decades.

The instant gratification crowd is back.

The marked improvement we saw earlier then expected has got the more inexperienced fans back to their old tricks.

Fortunately I believe our management team is going to stick to the Shanaplan and not deviate, they will completely ignore the blather about firing Babcock because quite frankly they know what they are doing.

That said there are things he does that I don't agree with but that will happen with any coach.


Settle down folks and go back to enjoying the fact we are still a young and upcoming team on the rise and not the cellar dwellers we were for decades.
I have swung over to the “fire the coach” side, after much thought, reading. I agree with you that one has to be careful of the “instant gratification” crowd mentality and the tendency to blindly criticize the coach (exhibit A would be the constant turnstile that is the Edmonton Oiler coaching when the real problem is the product). Then there is the “Babcock mystique”; the reputation, the pedigree (as in he being recognized as the best by his peers).

What clinches it for me though:
*Since 2008 he has won only 3 of his last 12 playoff series
**of all centres in the league, Tavares and Matthews rank something like 30th and 40th in terms of minutes played per game (this is unforgivable when you consider many would consider the two amongst the top 5 centres in the league). Matthews 18 minutes in game 7!
***the constant overplaying of favourites like Brown and Marleau( or Komorov last year), something he is well known for.
*****The abject absence of creativity, of flexibility (like seeing Marleau on the ice in the dying minutes of game 7; the fourth line on the ice, the refusal to double shift a Tavares or Matthews).
*******The neutering of our talent on the power play with its quick changes of personnel.
*********Mitch Mariners comments to the press a few months ago when he answered the question about why the Leafs road record was better than their home record with the comment “the coach can’t match lines on the road, we get to just play”
**********The unmistakeable frustration of Matthews in last years playoffs (which necessitated a Babcock personal visit over the summer); the image of Matthews slamming the bench door at yet being yanked off the ice again so Babcock could have his match.
********The pitiful, corpse like play of our talented team since Christmas (I refused at first to buy the line that the team has tuned out Babcock but now I agree)

I honestly feel Babcock is killing our spirit with his “machine like, Soviet style socialism”. I believe he earned his peers admiration because he is a tactician, a thinker, because he says all the right phrases. To me it is a gross mismanagement of assets, of talent. It is wasting those assets in their prime, it is lost time.

It would be one thing to see him fired for lack of results while seeing him try everything he could to win, doing what all the best do (double shifting, loading two lines etc). But he has shackled the talent with his meticulous stubbornness. I think the “lifeless” team since Christmas was the result, it wasn’t the often heard “the players think they only have to play one period and that because of all the talent they’ll still win”. What hockey player wants that kind of team?

So no, I don’t see my opinion as knee jerk or instant gratification.
 

Slyfox

Registered User
Dec 12, 2016
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Toronto
What pissed me off at the end of the season presser is when Babs said we need more depth full well knowing the cap issues and how we will have to lose some depth and will have most likely less depth and at best around the same depth. He not only deflected any blame for this season but jump started the blame game next year if the same result happens. Now we see Keefe who lost a ton of depth and is still succeeding and not complaining. Completely different personas.
 
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Jimmy Firecracker

Fire Sheldon.
Mar 30, 2010
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Past glory implies you’ve had success before. Why so quick to discount that?

Because Dubas and the young Media are trying to tell you the game has changed?

If it has they clearly haven’t figured it out.

I think I will take the old, successful retreads as opposed to the young no treads living off their parents’ helicopter upbringing and sense of entitlement

Because the “industry” has passed him by. Marleau has had a stellar career, but it’s like watching an old timer who was at the top of his game in the 80s and 90s struggle to work Excel or a Word document, yet he keeps getting the lead on these big projects despite there being younger, more capable employees out there. Marleau, like the business man may still be able to offer sage advice and tutelage, but he should not be the one doing the actual job.

As for the rest, aside from it being dismissive of any new blood or ideas, I’d argue that the new blood DID figure it out, but the dinosaur at the helm self-sabotaged.

Leafs have gone back to “old retreads” like you want (Fletcher, Burke, Wilson, Carlyle) and all of them failed to even make the playoffs in a full 82 game season. It took new blood Shanahan coming in and putting this team through a much needed rebuild that has us where we are today.
 
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ToMaLe

Registered User
Sep 24, 2002
4,853
2,495
Saskatchewan
I have swung over to the “fire the coach” side, after much thought, reading. I agree with you that one has to be careful of the “instant gratification” crowd mentality and the tendency to blindly criticize the coach (exhibit A would be the constant turnstile that is the Edmonton Oiler coaching when the real problem is the product). Then there is the “Babcock mystique”; the reputation, the pedigree (as in he being recognized as the best by his peers).

What clinches it for me though:
*Since 2008 he has won only 3 of his last 12 playoff series
**of all centres in the league, Tavares and Matthews rank something like 30th and 40th in terms of minutes played per game (this is unforgivable when you consider many would consider the two amongst the top 5 centres in the league). Matthews 18 minutes in game 7!
***the constant overplaying of favourites like Brown and Marleau( or Komorov last year), something he is well known for.
*****The abject absence of creativity, of flexibility (like seeing Marleau on the ice in the dying minutes of game 7; the fourth line on the ice, the refusal to double shift a Tavares or Matthews).
*******The neutering of our talent on the power play with its quick changes of personnel.
*********Mitch Mariners comments to the press a few months ago when he answered the question about why the Leafs road record was better than their home record with the comment “the coach can’t match lines on the road, we get to just play”
**********The unmistakeable frustration of Matthews in last years playoffs (which necessitated a Babcock personal visit over the summer); the image of Matthews slamming the bench door at yet being yanked off the ice again so Babcock could have his match.
********The pitiful, corpse like play of our talented team since Christmas (I refused at first to buy the line that the team has tuned out Babcock but now I agree)

I honestly feel Babcock is killing our spirit with his “machine like, Soviet style socialism”. I believe he earned his peers admiration because he is a tactician, a thinker, because he says all the right phrases. To me it is a gross mismanagement of assets, of talent. It is wasting those assets in their prime, it is lost time.

It would be one thing to see him fired for lack of results while seeing him try everything he could to win, doing what all the best do (double shifting, loading two lines etc). But he has shackled the talent with his meticulous stubbornness. I think the “lifeless” team since Christmas was the result, it wasn’t the often heard “the players think they only have to play one period and that because of all the talent they’ll still win”. What hockey player wants that kind of team?

So no, I don’t see my opinion as knee jerk or instant gratification.
nice post. I too was pumped when we first got Babcock, now I have not wanted a coach fired so bad since I started watching the Leafs in the 60s. Arrogant, stubborn and egotistic, 3 things I absolutely hate in a coach and he has them all in spades.
 
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ToMaLe

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Sep 24, 2002
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Saskatchewan
What pissed me off at the end of the season presser is when Babs said we need more depth full well knowing the cap issues and how we will have to lose some depth and will have most likely less depth and at best around the same depth. He not only deflected any blame for this season but jump started the blame game next year if the same result happens. Now we see Keefe who lost a ton of depth and is still succeeding and not complaining. Completely different personas.
Yup, Keefe, like Dubas takes blame for anything and everything that goes wrong or any loss. Babcock on the other hand blames everyone under the sun except himself. Because god forbid, the great Babcock can make a mistake! He makes me sick to be honest. Cant fire his ass outta here fast enough for my liking.
 
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FraumBallard

Registered User
Dec 9, 2018
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What pissed me off at the end of the season presser is when Babs said we need more depth full well knowing the cap issues and how we will have to lose some depth and will have most likely less depth and at best around the same depth. He not only deflected any blame for this season but jump started the blame game next year if the same result happens. Now we see Keefe who lost a ton of depth and is still succeeding and not complaining. Completely different personas.
If true.
Props to Babs.
Smart.
 

Pookie

Wear a mask
Oct 23, 2013
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Because the “industry” has passed him by. Marleau has had a stellar career, but it’s like watching an old timer who was at the top of his game in the 80s and 90s struggle to work Excel or a Word document, yet he keeps getting the lead on these big projects despite there being younger, more capable employees out there. Marleau, like the business man may still be able to offer sage advice and tutelage, but he should not be the one doing the actual job.

As for the rest, aside from it being dismissive of any new blood or ideas, I’d argue that the new blood DID figure it out, but the dinosaur at the helm self-sabotaged.

Leafs have gone back to “old retreads” like you want (Fletcher, Burke, Wilson, Carlyle) and all of them failed to even make the playoffs in a full 82 game season. It took new blood Shanahan coming in and putting this team through a much needed rebuild that has us where we are today.

Interesting.

Shanahan... based on advice and input from both the new and old, including our data team... authorized the Marleau contract in the first place.

Not to mention selected Babcock as his 8 year man to run the team.
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
16,749
Skövde, Sweden
Talking about firing Babcock is the same old narrow minded approach that kept our team in the doldrums for decades.

The instant gratification crowd is back.

The marked improvement we saw earlier then expected has got the more inexperienced fans back to their old tricks.
I have no idea how you reached this conclusion. How are people narrow-minded? Questioning someone's job performance in favor of a more progressive alternative would be the opposite of narrow-minded. It's not about instant gratification, people are not calling for his head suddenly after a disappointing playoff. It's a prolonged movement of critics that consider him a growing problem based on an evaluation of his tactical preparations, his systems, and his ability to adapt in-game.

Babcock is consistently playing bad players a lot, good players not enough, making line combinations of players who perform at their worst together, when there are alternatives that have a history of success. He clings to the reasoning for his decisions while ignoring the results from them. He has a group of d-men who excels at moving the puck, yet our breakouts are a mess. He sits and does nothing while problems in our game presents itself, both over time and in specific games. Reports from Boston indicate that the team marveled at how they could find flaws in our game, and keep exploiting it without us adapting. How on earth do you defend that? That alone is a reason to fire him. He also finds a way to not put our best offensive players on the ice a lot when we're trailing in this season's pivotal game, but some of our worst offensive talents are out there to the bitter end.

I was a big Babcock fan the first two years. I've defended him quite a bit in these forums. But at this point, I don't see how you can objectively defend him anymore.
 

FraumBallard

Registered User
Dec 9, 2018
980
407
Interesting.

Shanahan... based on advice and input from both the new and old, including our data team... authorized the Marleau contract in the first place.

Not to mention selected Babcock as his 8 year man to run the team.
And.
 

DarkKnight

Professional Amateur
Jan 17, 2017
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Yup, Keefe, like Dubas takes blame for anything and everything that goes wrong or any loss. Babcock on the other hand blames everyone under the sun except himself. Because god forbid, the great Babcock can make a mistake! He makes me sick to be honest. Cant fire his ass outta here fast enough for my liking.
I actually prefer the middle ground, I thought Babcock and Dubas were two unattractive extremes in the presser, both mock worthy.
 
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