Speculation: Babcock Turning Matthews Into A Checker & The Leafs Into Boring Chumps

[BrannigansLaw]

This man is delusional.

 

[frog]

This man is delusional.

Lol, he's playing the media and apparently you. His team has zero confidence and just got called out by their goalie. Sometimes you need to protect your team in front of the media. No doubt he's pissed and doesn't like what he sees.

 

[frog]

it is funny though how if a young player does well it's because of Babcock's teachings
If they falter, it's all on them

Isnt that what it's supposed to be? Just like a parent or a teacher... They show you how to succeed. Its up to you to get there. Sounds about right to me

 

[IBeL34f]

I agree. Quite frankly the poster you quoted doesn't make much sense to me. At the time we weren't playing catchup, we were winning games. There is absolutely nothing that can definitively indicate that wouldn't have continued. The Babcock ball washers can clamour about "the right way" all they want, but we were picking up points before and we're chasing now. The results of preseason experimentation proved successful and Babs has gone and thrown a wrench in it inexplicably.

I am the poster that they quoted. The line in bold was exactly my point - The fact that we were winning games and had built a cushion is what could have allowed for some kind of room to shake things up. Essentially, the theory would be that despite the early-season success, there were things that the coaching staff was still not happy with, and so they decided to make some changes. Really, I think he's just trying to make his players as responsible as possible, and that he believes this system is the best way to do that.
Call me a "ball washer" all you want - I just find it unfathomable how many people seem to think that our front office of Stanley Cup Champions is doing this just for "reasons", instead of actual, y'know, reasons. There's a method to this. Whether my previous post was accurate at all, I have no idea. But it still makes more sense to me than Babcock just deciding he doesn't like scoring anymore.

 

[moon111]

Remember Detroit in the early 80's??? They were pathetic. When Steve Yzerman arrived in Detroit, the Red Wings had failed to make the playoffs 15 times in the previous 17 years. That's insane. But then Yzerman showed up... and he was a -17, -17, and -24 (in 51 games) ...and then he was a -1. He had only scored 1 more point then in `84-85, but something definitely changed. He started to become a solid two-way player. And the Wings were a very solid club going three rounds in the playoffs, only losing the insane Edmonton Oilers of the 80's. Matthews is so much ahead of the curve it's not even funny, and I think Babcock should take some credit.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Lol, he's playing the media and apparently you. His team has zero confidence and just got called out by their goalie. Sometimes you need to protect your team in front of the media. No doubt he's pissed and doesn't like what he sees.

Riiiiight.

It certainly shows in games. He's so pissed that he goes with the exact same lines and system. As long as the other team doesn't score 4+ on us, it's all gravy

 

[ShaneFalco]

Isnt that what it's supposed to be? Just like a parent or a teacher... They show you how to succeed. Its up to you to get there. Sounds about right to me

Pretty convenient though. If a player succeeds it's all due to Babcock. If they don't, they aren't doing what he tells them. He's never at fault

 

[zeke]

The thing that bugs me is that literally for 2 seasons now babcocks has never once strayed from these pairings:

Hyman-Matthews
Komarov-Kadri
VanRyk-Bozak

He simply refuses to even consider changing these up, which seems bizarre given that not only has he not even tried anything else to see whether it would work, but also because none of these pairings seem to be a natural fit even at first glance. (i.e. Is there a center on the team (league) who needs a digger like hyman less than Matthews? Is there a center in the league that needs a digger like Hyman more than Bozak?)

And unless he mixes those pairings up, then there can't be any real line adjustments. Just a shuffling of Nylander/Brown/Marner/Marleau from line to line.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

The thing that bugs me is that literally for 2 seasons now babcocks has never once strayed from these pairings:

Hyman-Matthews
Komarov-Kadri
VanRyk-Bozak

He simply refuses to even consider changing these up, which seems bizarre given that not only has he not even tried anything else to see whether it would work, but also because none of these pairings seem to be a natural fit even at first glance. (i.e. Is there a center on the team (league) who needs a digger like hyman less than Matthews? Is there a center in the league that needs a digger like Hyman more than Bozak?)

And unless he mixes those pairings up, then there can't be any real line adjustments. Just a shuffling of Nylander/Brown/Marner/Marleau from line to line.

It's simply baffling. He wants to play a chip and chase style but has a line consisting of three players who think forechecking is optional in Marner, Bozak and JVR. Either split that line up and play your system or change the system. His stubbornness will be his Achilles heel.

 

[Morbo]

The other thing that is becoming obvious is, this team doesn't have the personnel to play the way Babcock seems to want. The symptom of this is the chronic overplay of realgud grinders like Komarov and Polak.

Our top/core players have no physical game, to put it more succinctly. Even Matthews, who is a board monster especially compared to his teammates, is getting leaned on this season like we didn't see last year, and frankly is struggling to deal with it, as big as he is. None of Marner, Nylander, JVR, Bozak, Rielly, Gardiner, Marleau or Zaitsev have the slightest interest in knocking somebody down or trying to make the opponent's life difficult. it's just not in their DNA as players.

One encouraging thing about Dermott beyond his obvious ability is that he'll hit. That should make it easier to get him into the lineup and move upwards.

 

[WTFMAN99]

The thing that bugs me is that literally for 2 seasons now babcocks has never once strayed from these pairings:

Hyman-Matthews
Komarov-Kadri
VanRyk-Bozak

He simply refuses to even consider changing these up, which seems bizarre given that not only has he not even tried anything else to see whether it would work, but also because none of these pairings seem to be a natural fit even at first glance. (i.e. Is there a center on the team (league) who needs a digger like hyman less than Matthews? Is there a center in the league that needs a digger like Hyman more than Bozak?)

And unless he mixes those pairings up, then there can't be any real line adjustments. Just a shuffling of Nylander/Brown/Marner/Marleau from line to line.

100% agreed.

Not only that but if you want our system last night, their points are WIDE open. Like Komarov got caught so many times leaving his man at the point all alone because he was wandering to the other side of the ice. Dermott got 12 mins, Polak got 20. It makes zero sense.

 

[zeke]

It's simply baffling. He wants to play a chip and chase style but has a line consisting of three players who think forechecking is optional in Marner, Bozak and JVR. Either split that line up and play your system or change the system. His stubbornness will be his Achilles heel.

And I mean, if he really wants a true shutdown line, then why not go Komarov-Kadri-Hyman? Doesn't that make sense?

And instead of having a scoring line that you're scared of playing too much, like the current Bozak line, why don't you mix it up and give some defensive responsibility to it?

VanRyk - Matthews - Nylander/Marner
Marleau - Bozak - Nylander/Marner

?

I mean, so many interesting options we could try out and see if they work, but refuse too.

 

[WTFMAN99]

And I mean, if he really wants a true shutdown line, then why not go Komarov-Kadri-Hyman? Doesn't that make sense?

And instead of having a scoring line that you're scared of playing too much, like the current Bozak line, why don't you mix it up and give some defensive responsibility to it?

VanRyk - Matthews - Nylander/Marner
Marleau - Bozak - Nylander/Marner

?

I mean, so many interesting options we could try out and see if they work, but refuse too.

Trade Bozak

JVR-Matthews-Marner
Hyman-Kadri-Brown
Marleau-Nylander-Kapanen
Martin-Moore-Komarov

Nylander went PT/Game at C and if he gets sheltered like Bozak does he could do well.

 

[ACC1224]

Trade Bozak

JVR-Matthews-Marner
Hyman-Kadri-Brown
Marleau-Nylander-Kapanen
Martin-Moore-Komarov

Nylander went PT/Game at C and if he gets sheltered like Bozak does he could do well.

For me trading Bozak now would be the perfect shake up move. Nylander certainly wouldn't bring less that Bozak does.
Like your lines but I doubt they would change things up that much.

 

[WTFMAN99]

For me trading Bozak now would be the perfect shake up move. Nylander certainly wouldn't bring less that Bozak does.
Like your lines but I doubt they would change things up that much.

I doubt they would but it makes so much sense, even if JVR and Marleau got swapped but basically rationale is...

Matthews won't be smothered as much as he is on that line, JVR and Marner are threats in their own right.

Hyman's shooting % is an upgrade on Komarov and Brown can replace some of Marleau's offense

Marleau is a good vet 2-way winger (can also take face offs if Nylander gets kicked out) to help break Nylander in at C. Kapanen was due for a spot on this team that wasn't on a 4th line.

4th line is whatever, Komarov is certainly suited to it. Less ES ice time, heavy PK time, tell him to go out there and make bodies fly with hits.

 

[Daisy Jane]

i just find it interesting - just looking at what @IBeL13f said, that remove a lot of things, ie: the expectations, the vegas stuff,even last year's success, and just look at what we fundamentally wanted from a healthy, talented, stable Leafs team.

We wanted them to win. (obviously).
We wanted accountability/young people earning things, not just given it to them
We wanted smart 200 foot players that yeah they were more in the other end, but they weren't gong-shows in their own.

and now that we have a management team and I strongly feel that what Babcock* is doing isn't just him being lord and master, but Shanahan and Lou are signing off on this - that is doing exactly that -people are freaking out that that "the team isn't built for that" or "why does it matter, just let them score the goals" "and Pittsburgh, Chicago, Chicago, Pittsburgh. blehg blehg.

I won't speak for everyone else, but I know, that the suckiest time that ever sucked being a Leafs fan was 2014 through until Firegeddon with Shannahan, Babcock's hiring, and winning the lottery. Because there was none of what we actually wanted. There was the Muskoka five. there were players doing whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted. the atmosphere was so toxic everyone hated everything.

so now the things are being put in place that yah, you might have to spend (a lot) of time on the 4th line. and yes, there are "scrubs/plugs" that should have less ice time than you and yeah, you could literally Shawkshank yourself out of the pressbox for some - but if the end result is that we're a little less boring *, not as dominant, and at the end of it, we've got amazing players out of it that really, truly appreciate playing here, and basically rule the roost, who cares what others things, isn't that worth being bored for a 1/2 a season?


1: yes I know Babcock can seem hypocritical on this one at times, and he has his favourites, but I do think that for a good chunk of the players, i do think he wants to make it like okay you really truly earned it. I do admit he has his biases about players he doesn't like but i think for the major part of the roster, this is what the case is. (or, i hope this is what it is).

2: i personally don't think how they are playing are boring. these are all really close games, and the leafs are in it. I don't think every game needs to be You get a goal! and You get a goal! and OOH you made a great play here (even though obviously, that's awesome), but i do acknowledge for some (maybe even the players it could be). but again i'd rather them get the lessons out of the way when they can stamp out bad habits, vs. having a roster that we hate. and be dead honest, the 2014, 2015 rosters we loathed them at the end of it all.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

i just find it interesting - just looking at what @IBeL13f said, that remove a lot of things, ie: the expectations, the vegas stuff,even last year's success, and just look at what we fundamentally wanted from a healthy, talented, stable Leafs team.

We wanted them to win. (obviously).
We wanted accountability/young people earning things, not just given it to them
We wanted smart 200 foot players that yeah they were more in the other end, but they weren't gong-shows in their own.

and now that we have a management team and I strongly feel that what Babcock* is doing isn't just him being lord and master, but Shanahan and Lou are signing off on this - that is doing exactly that -people are freaking out that that "the team isn't built for that" or "why does it matter, just let them score the goals" "and Pittsburgh, Chicago, Chicago, Pittsburgh. blehg blehg.

I won't speak for everyone else, but I know, that the suckiest time that ever sucked being a Leafs fan was 2014 through until Firegeddon with Shannahan, Babcock's hiring, and winning the lottery. Because there was none of what we actually wanted. There was the Muskoka five. there were players doing whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted. the atmosphere was so toxic everyone hated everything.

so now the things are being put in place that yah, you might have to spend (a lot) of time on the 4th line. and yes, there are "scrubs/plugs" that should have less ice time than you and yeah, you could literally Shawkshank yourself out of the pressbox for some - but if the end result is that we're a little less boring *, not as dominant, and at the end of it, we've got amazing players out of it that really, truly appreciate playing here, and basically rule the roost, who cares what others things, isn't that worth being bored for a 1/2 a season?


1: yes I know Babcock can seem hypocritical on this one at times, and he has his favourites, but I do think that for a good chunk of the players, i do think he wants to make it like okay you really truly earned it. I do admit he has his biases about players he doesn't like but i think for the major part of the roster, this is what the case is. (or, i hope this is what it is).

2: i personally don't think how they are playing are boring. these are all really close games, and the leafs are in it. I don't think every game needs to be You get a goal! and You get a goal! and OOH you made a great play here (even though obviously, that's awesome), but i do acknowledge for some (maybe even the players it could be). but again i'd rather them get the lessons out of the way when they can stamp out bad habits, vs. having a roster that we hate. and be dead honest, the 2014, 2015 rosters we loathed them at the end of it all.

The games are only close because of Andersen. 14 goals in our last 7 games. 2 goals per game doesn't cut it, both from an entertainment and winning hockey standpoint.

 

[Daisy Jane]

The games are only close because of Andersen. 14 goals in our last 7 games. 2 goals per game doesn't cut it, both from an entertainment and winning hockey standpoint.

yes because why should we take into consideration that teams struggle offensively, especially oen with the offense coming from all the youngsters.

 

[RadekBong]

I am the poster that they quoted. The line in bold was exactly my point - The fact that we were winning games and had built a cushion is what could have allowed for some kind of room to shake things up. Essentially, the theory would be that despite the early-season success, there were things that the coaching staff was still not happy with, and so they decided to make some changes. Really, I think he's just trying to make his players as responsible as possible, and that he believes this system is the best way to do that.
Call me a "ball washer" all you want - I just find it unfathomable how many people seem to think that our front office of Stanley Cup Champions is doing this just for "reasons", instead of actual, y'know, reasons. There's a method to this. Whether my previous post was accurate at all, I have no idea. But it still makes more sense to me than Babcock just deciding he doesn't like scoring anymore.

I get your premise, my problem with it is it's based on an assumption by Babs. He assumed we wouldn't keep winning, when in reality there's nothing much that suggested that. I'm sure they're doing what they're doing because they believe it to be right. I don't think they're doing stuff for shits and giggles I just don't agree with their approach. Just my opinion though, I could be wrong as easily as anyone else. Meant no offence, sorry if it came off that way.

 

[IBeL34f]

I get your premise, my problem with it is it's based on an assumption by Babs. He assumed we wouldn't keep winning, when in reality there's nothing much that suggested that. I'm sure they're doing what they're doing because they believe it to be right. I don't think they're doing stuff for ****s and giggles I just don't agree with their approach. Just my opinion though, I could be wrong as easily as anyone else. Meant no offence, sorry if it came off that way.

The assumption is mine - I believe guys in Babcock's/Shanahan's/Lamoriello's positions rarely make decisions based on assumptions. The problem is that they have 0 obligation to share the reasons for those decisions with us, and so people like us are left to simply assume, while they're making calculated moves based on facts and data that we aren't necessarily privy to.

 

[RadekBong]

The assumption is mine - I believe guys in Babcock's/Shanahan's/Lamoriello's positions rarely make decisions based on assumptions. The problem is that they have 0 obligation to share the reasons for those decisions with us, and so people like us are left to simply assume, while they're making calculated moves based on facts and data that we aren't necessarily privy to.

Fair enough, they certainly have more data to play with compared to us.

 

[saffronleaf]

It's crazy how he's managed to make Matthews a boring low-scoring plug. I guess he not only wants to play Hyman and Komarov all the time, he also wants his other players to emulate them.

 

[IBeL34f]

If you find Auston Matthews boring to watch, you're just watching wrong.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

It's crazy how he's managed to make Matthews a boring low-scoring plug. I guess he not only wants to play Hyman and Komarov all the time, he also wants his other players to emulate them.

Matthews has been disappointing but the real story is the damage he's doing to the entire team. Matthews is a top 10 talent but our offense overall should be easily top 3 and somehow it's been in the bottom 5 for weeks

 

[IPS]

Matthews has been disappointing but the real story is the damage he's doing to the entire team. Matthews is a top 10 talent but our offensive overall should be easily top 3 and somehow it's been in the bottom 5 for weeks

27th in goals scored since December 1st.

It's unacceptable, anyone who thinks otherwise is incredibly delusional.