Speculation: Babcock is gone, but will Cleary be back? Also tank talk.

[jkutswings]

Are you still complaining that Nyquist played like 10 games in the minors 2 years ago? That is your case for why Holland doesn't have a plan? Just try thinking it through. Just consider the value of depth and development. If you do these things it will become obvious. If you don't do these things nothing I say will make any difference.

A glacier is technically always moving. That doesn't mean it will ever win a race.

Building a championship roster isn't something you just have forever to do. It needs to be a several facets, coalescing together WITHIN A SHORT WINDOW of opportunity.

Holland is currently on pace to build a team that's ready to contend...5 years after the Eurotwins retire. Which means over a decade of pointless mediocrity, with no greater chance of it "being worth it" than if they just, oh, I dunno, use the strategy that every team in sports history has used, admit when a run is over, and rip the band-aid off already.

 

[sarcastro]

See, this is what our board has been missing the last few years.

Long, angry arguments about nothing in particular which leave everyone angry and accomplish nothing.

Can't we all agree that we hate Cleary and move on? I'm pretty sure there's already a "We Hate Ken Holland" thread anyway.

 

[Heaton]

See, this is what our board has been missing the last few years.

Long, angry arguments about nothing in particular which leave everyone angry and accomplish nothing.

Can't we all agree that we hate Cleary and move on? I'm pretty sure there's already a "We Hate Ken Holland" thread anyway.

That's my secret, every thread is a 'We Hate Ken Holland' thread. There is no moving on. Not until the draft and free agency, because then we'll have new stuff to hate him for!

 

[sarcastro]

That's my secret, every thread is a 'We Hate Ken Holland' thread. There is no moving on. Not until the draft and free agency, because then we'll have new stuff to hate him for!

You did manage to get over Lilja. Let's hope Cleary is next.

Holland, never.

 

[Heaton]

You did manage to get over Lilja. Let's hope Cleary is next.

Holland, never.

Lilja and Cleary are temporary, Holland is forever.

 

[abbbaron]

Yes, that's how I remember it too. He wanted more money that KH offered, and probably thought he'd get more offers and suitors. Furthermore, there may have been some pressure from home to stay in Michigan.

The Wings weren't able to offer as much as Philly that year, so the handshake agreement. That's how I remember it. Could be wrong.

The first year of the handshake was the same as what he would've gotten in Philly (1.75 base + 1mil bonus), but he of course was injured/awful that season so last year only got 1.5mil. If Holland offers him 1.25 for this next season then that would be the equivalent to Holland's July 3rd offer (5.5 over 3yrs)...I wonder if part of his motivation to keep playing stems from knowing that he may have screwed himself that summer.
And to think-- if only he had taken that original offer from Holland, maybe Holland would've passed on Weiss (and subsequently not had to bury Tootoo in GR, allowing Holland to use that 2nd compliance buyout elsewhere, etc etc)

 

[Actual Thought*]

A glacier is technically always moving. That doesn't mean it will ever win a race.

Building a championship roster isn't something you just have forever to do. It needs to be a several facets, coalescing together WITHIN A SHORT WINDOW of opportunity.

Holland is currently on pace to build a team that's ready to contend...5 years after the Eurotwins retire. Which means over a decade of pointless mediocrity, with no greater chance of it "being worth it" than if they just, oh, I dunno, use the strategy that every team in sports history has used, admit when a run is over, and rip the band-aid off already.

I disagree. I think the roster is much closer than you do. The Holland strategy is that of infinitely sustained success not flash in the pan tank for 20 years success. I like his model much better because I like cups and he has brought a bunch of em. Tanking is for losers.

 

[Actual Thought*]

That's my secret, every thread is a 'We Hate Ken Holland' thread. There is no moving on. Not until the draft and free agency, because then we'll have new stuff to hate him for!

You are achieving your goal. It's as if people that watch hockey are completely marginalized.:

 

[Winger98]

I'll put it to you this way, HiHD, we had these exact same debates coming out of the '04 lockout. You ended up being right then, but we were in a much, much different situation. Let's see where this team is in 4 years when it's been over a decade since our last Finals appearance.

What never gets talked about any more is Holland having to back away from the initial Fedorov deal as the eventuality of the lockout became obvious, and the subsequent purging of the lineup where Holland was given a get out of jail free card with Hatcher, Whitney, and McCarty. Everyone harps on Dave Lewis and how crappy of a coach he was and how Babcock made them a winner again...which is all true to an extent. But how much would this team have turned around if Holland hadn't been forced to jettison all of those players and start looking to bring in guys like Cleary, Samuelsson, and Franzen into prominent roles and remaking the team?

Have to think we'd have been far better off after this last lockout if Holland had been forced to do the same thing. Unfortunately, he seemed to plan better and allowed himself more space to hoard his vets rather than remake the team.

 

[Actual Thought*]

What never gets talked about any more is Holland having to back away from the initial Fedorov deal as the eventuality of the lockout became obvious, and the subsequent purging of the lineup where Holland was given a get out of jail free card with Hatcher, Whitney, and McCarty. Everyone harps on Dave Lewis and how crappy of a coach he was and how Babcock made them a winner again...which is all true to an extent. But how much would this team have turned around if Holland hadn't been forced to jettison all of those players and start looking to bring in guys like Cleary, Samuelsson, and Franzen into prominent roles and remaking the team?

Have to think we'd have been far better off after this last lockout if Holland had been forced to do the same thing. Unfortunately, he seemed to plan better and allowed himself more space to hoard his vets rather than remake the team.

How often does a GM have to win the cup to be considered competent? How many competent GMs are there in the NHL? Please list those that are better at their jobs than Holland.

 

[Fugu]

The first year of the handshake was the same as what he would've gotten in Philly (1.75 base + 1mil bonus), but he of course was injured/awful that season so last year only got 1.5mil. If Holland offers him 1.25 for this next season then that would be the equivalent to Holland's July 3rd offer (5.5 over 3yrs)...I wonder if part of his motivation to keep playing stems from knowing that he may have screwed himself that summer.
And to think-- if only he had taken that original offer from Holland, maybe Holland would've passed on Weiss (and subsequently not had to bury Tootoo in GR, allowing Holland to use that 2nd compliance buyout elsewhere, etc etc)

He never made massive amounts of money, so I think every extra year he can add will help. We think of these guys as old, which they are by hockey standards, but 35-36 yrs old isn't very old at all. It's a long time until he can collect retirement money.

 

[jkutswings]

I disagree. I think the roster is much closer than you do.

Definitely a disagreement there. They're at least 2 top 4 defensemen and a top 6 forward away.

Holland's strategy is that of infinitely sustained success not flash in the pan tank for 20 years success.

I don't consider 1st round exits as success.

I like his model much better because I like cups and he has brought a bunch of em. Tanking is for losers.

The whole point is that his model simply isn't working anymore. Feel free to disagree, but I'll bet dollars to doughnuts this franchise doesn't win another Cup in the next 10 years without a major trade or a new GM.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Definitely a disagreement there. They're at least 2 top 4 defensemen and a top 6 forward away.


I don't consider 1st round exits as success.


The whole point is that his model simply isn't working anymore. Feel free to disagree, but I'll bet dollars to doughnuts this franchise doesn't win another Cup in the next 10 years without a major trade or a new GM.

You are arguing that the team is 3 players away from contention? Maybe we agree more than you think. I would guess 85% of the teams in the league would love to be able to say they are 3 players away from a cup.

I agree they need to make a trade. I think where we differ is that I think this year is better for making a deal than the last 3 years. We have built up some assets that can be packaged and I don't buy the "Holland doesn't trade" argument.

I also agree we likely won't win a cup in the next 10 years but not for the same reasons you do. I think we will have a revolving door of coaches while we search to find a guy who is capable of leading a team to a championship. If Blashill is by some miracle as good as Babcock we could hang a banner in the next couple of years. However I will be surprised if Blash is still in the NHL 3 years from now much less guiding the Wings to a cup. If he fails it could set the team back for years.

 

[Winger98]

Definitely a disagreement there. They're at least 2 top 4 defensemen and a top 6 forward away.

I think you're underestimating the mediocrity of the majority of the league. You get a favorable matchup, get some bounces, and you can make some noise.

How often does a GM have to win the cup to be considered competent? How many competent GMs are there in the NHL? Please list those that are better at their jobs than Holland.

I never called him incompetent. I think he's complacent, and he's too risk averse, but he's not incompetent. Holland has been at his best when he's been forced into uncomfortable situations. He deserves a ton of credit for remaking the team after the first lockout. And it's a remake the team desperately needed. Do you think Holland would have stepped out of character, parted ways with the aging, slowing vets, and revamped the team if he didn't have to?

 

[haulinbass]

Holland is currently on pace to build a team that's ready to contend...5 years after the Eurotwins retire. Which means over a decade of pointless mediocrity, with no greater chance of it "being worth it" than if they just, oh, I dunno, use the strategy that every team in sports history has used, admit when a run is over, and rip the band-aid off already.

So we could have tanked and already or almost be ready to win cups? It seems to me only a few teams have found much success doing this and every single one has tried.

Even if it was a sure thing to tank and win cups.. How rewarding would that be? Cool we sucked for years got top picks won a couple cups as a result and then became mediocre and decided to rebuild again. Cool cycle. Want to know what would make us the greatest franchise in the NHL. If we made the playoffs for 30 years and won another set of Stanly Cups on a completely rebuilt team. That's greatness. I don't want to be the generic product on the shelf virtually waiting for its turn. Just because the Wings haven't advanced far into the playoffs the past few years, just like 26 other teams doesn't mean we didn't have a chance. We almost beat Chicago when they won the cup, we almost beat Tampa and they are in the Cup. A little tiny bit of luck and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Our team isn't the best team in the league but it always has a chance.

I got an idea for ya. If your not interested in the Red Wings commitment to being a playoff team then why don't you just follow rebuilt teams? After they go to crap and tank again you can just pick the next team in line that just came off of 5 years of being one of the worst teams in the NHL.

I want to commit to pioneering a way to be the best team every single year. I would rather die trying than give in to playing the system and tank for success. My faith is in Holland to figure out a way for this team to make the playoffs and win a cup. Until we miss the playoffs my faith is in Holland. Hes not just trying to make the playoffs hes trying to find a way to get this team to the top again without sucking.

 

[Actual Thought*]

So we could have tanked and already or almost be ready to win cups? It seems to me only a few teams have found much success doing this and every single one has tried.

Even if it was a sure thing to tank and win cups.. How rewarding would that be? Cool we sucked for years got top picks won a couple cups as a result and then became mediocre and decided to rebuild again. Cool cycle. Want to know what would make us the greatest franchise in the NHL. If we made the playoffs for 30 years and won another set of Stanly Cups on a completely rebuilt team. That's greatness. I don't want to be the generic product on the shelf virtually waiting for its turn. Just because the Wings haven't advanced far into the playoffs the past few years, just like 26 other teams doesn't mean we didn't have a chance. We almost beat Chicago when they won the cup, we almost beat Tampa and they are in the Cup. A little tiny bit of luck and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Our team isn't the best team in the league but it always has a chance.

I got an idea for ya. If your not interested in the Red Wings commitment to being a playoff team then why don't you just follow rebuilt teams? After they go to crap and tank again you can just pick the next team in line that just came off of 5 years of being one of the worst teams in the NHL.

Bravo! I would just add that if the NHL is now a league where the best way to be good is to be really bad then it isn't a worthwhile league anymore. Look at Pittsburgh. Are they a great organization because they have Crosby? I don't think so. Edmonton? Nope.

 

[Fugu]

Bravo! I would just add that if the NHL is now a league where the best way to be good is to be really bad then it isn't a worthwhile league anymore.

You may wish to reconsider following the league then. The odds are much better for a team to improve and contend with the extremely high draft picks. Edmonton, for example, has garnered an embarrassment of riches. They're not going to have to grind it out night after night.

 

[BinCookin]

So we could have tanked and already or almost be ready to win cups? It seems to me only a few teams have found much success doing this and every single one has tried.

Even if it was a sure thing to tank and win cups.. How rewarding would that be? Cool we sucked for years got top picks won a couple cups as a result and then became mediocre and decided to rebuild again. Cool cycle. Want to know what would make us the greatest franchise in the NHL. If we made the playoffs for 30 years and won another set of Stanly Cups on a completely rebuilt team. That's greatness. I don't want to be the generic product on the shelf virtually waiting for its turn. Just because the Wings haven't advanced far into the playoffs the past few years, just like 26 other teams doesn't mean we didn't have a chance. We almost beat Chicago when they won the cup, we almost beat Tampa and they are in the Cup. A little tiny bit of luck and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Our team isn't the best team in the league but it always has a chance.

I got an idea for ya. If your not interested in the Red Wings commitment to being a playoff team then why don't you just follow rebuilt teams? After they go to crap and tank again you can just pick the next team in line that just came off of 5 years of being one of the worst teams in the NHL.

I want to commit to pioneering a way to be the best team every single year. I would rather die trying than give in to playing the system and tank for success. My faith is in Holland to figure out a way for this team to make the playoffs and win a cup. Until we miss the playoffs my faith is in Holland. Hes not just trying to make the playoffs hes trying to find a way to get this team to the top again without sucking.

Well said and I agree.

I would like us to add one solid d-man. But tear the team down to receive a top 5 pick? no thanks.

 

[Actual Thought*]

I think you're underestimating the mediocrity of the majority of the league. You get a favorable matchup, get some bounces, and you can make some noise.



I never called him incompetent. I think he's complacent, and he's too risk averse, but he's not incompetent. Holland has been at his best when he's been forced into uncomfortable situations. He deserves a ton of credit for remaking the team after the first lockout. And it's a remake the team desperately needed. Do you think Holland would have stepped out of character, parted ways with the aging, slowing vets, and revamped the team if he didn't have to?

I think Holland is consistent. I think it is a credit to him that he has been so successful for so long. I guess I don't seek out ways to discredit him so I don't think in terms of everything great thing he has done is only because he was forced to do so. Constantly trying to discredit Holland in the face of his accomplishments is a tiresome bore. It doesn't take a genius to say "They won't win" and then "I told you so". 29 teams fail to win every year.
How many teams can say the have won a cup in the last 10 years? How many can say they have won 4 since 1997? How many have won in both the pre cap and post cap eras? How many teams have made the playoffs every year post cap?

If you truly believe there is a better run franchise I suggest you cheer for them. Frankly, If Holland isn't good enough for you then you have absurdly unrealistic expectations.

It appears to me that the majority of posters here hope the Wings lose so they can say "I knew it all along". I think this board breathed a collective sigh of relief when the Wings lost game 7 to Tampa.

 

[BinCookin]

You may wish to reconsider following the league then. The odds are much better for a team to improve and contend with the extremely high draft picks. Edmonton, for example, has garnered an embarrassment of riches. They're not going to have to grind it out night after night.

Counting chickens before they hatch? Lets see how they do... currently they are still in roughly last.

 

[Actual Thought*]

You may wish to reconsider following the league then. The odds are much better for a team to improve and contend with the extremely high draft picks. Edmonton, for example, has garnered an embarrassment of riches. They're not going to have to grind it out night after night.

They only had to be totally incompetent for a couple of decades to be a last place team of stars. If they win a cup will it be because they are a great organization? Nope.

As long as the wings continue to pursuit excellence through competence they will have my support. If they chose to tank for picks they would no longer be worth my support.

If Babcock would have stayed I would have wagered the Wings would win a cup before Edmonton.

 

[Winger98]

Do you think Holland would have stepped out of character, parted ways with the aging, slowing vets, and revamped the team if he didn't have to?

I think Holland is consistent. I think it is a credit to him that he has been so successful for so long. I guess I don't seek out ways to discredit him so I don't think in terms of everything great thing he has done is only because he was forced to do so. Constantly trying to discredit Holland in the face of his accomplishments is a tiresome bore. It doesn't take a genius to say "They won't win" and then "I told you so". 29 teams fail to win every year.
How many teams can say the have won a cup in the last 10 years? How many can say they have won 4 since 1997? How many have won in both the pre cap and post cap eras? How many teams have made the playoffs every year post cap?

If you truly believe there is a better run franchise I suggest you cheer for them. Frankly, If Holland isn't good enough for you then you have absurdly unrealistic expectations.

It appears to me that the majority of posters here hope the Wings lose so they can say "I knew it all along". I think this board breathed a collective sigh of relief when the Wings lost game 7 to Tampa.

So your answer is no?

 

[Actual Thought*]

So your answer is no?

The answer is that Holland has been very consistent. It isn't "stepping out of character" to make smart moves. That argument is mythological at best.

 

[RedWingsForPresident]

One would think there's absolutely no way with the already overload at forward and upcoming RFA's Detroit needs to sign... but after last year I'm not saying no until the season starts and his name isn't on the roster

 

[jkutswings]

OK, I'll try this one more time.

I never said I want the Wings to tank. Tanking (to me) means that you TRY to miss the playoffs, in hopes of getting an elite player via a very high draft pick. It effectively is putting all your eggs in that one basket, because if said draft pick doesn't pan out, you're kinda hosed.

But what Holland has done on multiple occasions is the opposite extreme. When the roster was stacked 10 years ago, it made sense to overripen the youngsters, because the existing product was already at a very good to great quality, and the results were impressive. Over the last 5-6 years, however, the roster has been significantly flawed, and the results have reflected it. Holding back a young player while the Yzermans and Lidstroms of the world are contending for - and winning - Cups is smart. Holding them back for the Clearys and Samuelssons of the world, who are getting bounced in the 1st and 2nd round is ridiculous.

The point is that, in between tanking for a top pick, and perpetually sitting on your hands, is an entire spectrum of management options. As in, trade for players that will be here for more than 3 months. As in, consider the occasional RFA offer sheet. As in, DON'T YOU DARE BRING BACK DAN CLEARY YET AGAIN.

I'm not asking for 3-5 years of cellar dwellar hockey...nor am I asking for free agent Christmas in July, because those days are likely gone for good. All I'm asking for is the front office to be more proactive, and leave all options on the table to improve the big picture.