Speculation: Babcock is gone, but will Cleary be back? Also tank talk.

[Frk It]

Because you think there never was a contract from Philly. Which means Cleary lied to everybody.

All you've offered as rebuttal is that no GM would give Cleary a deal. So somehow the Wings not only are so awful at evaluating talent with Cleary, but they also bought his lie. It's just such a web of lies and idiot behavior, I think it's way more realistic that Cleary did have verbal talks with Holmgren about his deal.

Hell, Holmgren is the one that said Cleary was such an upstanding guy and of great moral character.

I think it's possible that it was made up.

But aside from that, the reported offer was a PTO. So Cleary being good at hockey or not is 100% relevant. And I will continue to say, no objective person watches Dan Cleary play and thinks he is worth a contract. Let alone a 3 year, 3 million + contract.

So even if you think it was real, I don't see it ending up happening anyways. Because he sucks and everyone can see that except Ken Holland, who has some weird relationship with him no one can figure out.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

I think it's possible that it was made up.

But aside from that, the reported offer was a PTO. So Cleary being good at hockey or not is 100% relevant. And I will continue to say, no objective person watches Dan Cleary play and thinks he is worth a contract. Let alone a 3 year, 3 million + contract.

So even if you think it was real, I don't see it ending up happening anyways. Because he sucks and everyone can see that except Ken Holland, who has some weird relationship with him no one can figure out.

They watch scary movies at night.

 

[Bench]

So even if you think it was real, I don't see it ending up happening anyways.

Well we're making some progress here!

It's possible the actual terms of the deal could have changed pending the tryout. But make no mistake, Holmgren and Cleary did have sit downs (that's confirmed) and there was a contract discussed (also confirmed). There was some debate about the actual totals, which I assume Holmgren did throw some numbers up as discussion without a firm offer... which Cleary took as an offer.

But seriously, the wheels were moving strongly on Cleary in Philly. They needed a depth guy like him and were very vocal about bringing him into the fold.

There's just no way I believe Cleary made up a dollar figure and term to leverage Holland (and the rest of the Wings staff). Remember, there's a whole team there with Holland and all it would take is one guy to figure out the lie, over several years, to completely alienate Cleary to the Red Wings.

 

[Obe2kenobe]

Cleary is definetly done as a everydayer. If he's on the roster next year, he'll probably play less than the 17 games this year. But, it is dissappointing to think of him playing any minutes next year. Watching Chi / Tampa Bay, you see speed, youth, success. Cleary isnt going to bring any of those things.
Dan Cleary is Done Clearly!!

 

[Winger98]

Your entire argument hinges on "He's not good at hockey."

My entire argument hinges upon I don't think Holland is a total idiot, that Cleary isn't a liar, and that Helen St. James also wasn't carrying water for a conspiracy on a bottom 6 player.

You're straight up saying Cleary lied and cheated Holland out of millions of dollars on a fake offer. That's what you're saying. And that nobody in the Red Wings could figure this out... but you did! You figured it out.

Did Cleary ever put a price tag on Philly's offer? I thought that was entirely St. James rumoring it up. I think it's very possible that she had a source that intentionally or unintentionally gave her crap info about the offer, and she just ran with it. Cleary has no reason to deny it, and lets his agent use it to leverage Holland. Which is asinine on Holland's part, because there was nothing he should have felt leveraged over.

If Holland is seriously considering bringing Cleary back now, why would you give him the benefit of the doubt on calling Cleary's bluff in the first place?

 

[Vladdy84]

This thread makes my head hurt.

 

[Bench]

Did Cleary ever put a price tag on Philly's offer? I thought that was entirely St. James rumoring it up. I think it's very possible that she had a source that intentionally or unintentionally gave her crap info about the offer, and she just ran with it. Cleary has no reason to deny it, and lets his agent use it to leverage Holland. Which is asinine on Holland's part, because there was nothing he should have felt leveraged over.

If Holland is seriously considering bringing Cleary back now, why would you give him the benefit of the doubt on calling Cleary's bluff in the first place?

You're still saying Cleary "didn't deny it" thus lying to Holland and the Wings in order to milk millions of dollars. That seems insanely out of character, plus it assumes the Wings management are idiots. So dumb that we, using media quotes, can figure it out but they, actual hockey insides with contacts throughout the league... simply can't.

A secret kept quiet for years. It's really amazing.

Cleary may have not put a specific price tag on it, but he did outright say it was a multi-year contract. The HBO special specifically mentioned he turned down a deal from Philly.

I guess I'm curious why everybody is so quick to believe in secrets and lies rather than the obvious answer that Cleary was just telling the truth? Guy is an awful hockey player now, but he's not a lying jerk.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

This post isn't directed towards anyone in particular.

You will never convince me that Holland wasn't the only reason Cleary was brought back both times. Holland only does what Holland wants to do. He ignored Babcock on more than one occasion in regards to roster composition. If Babcock wanted Cleary, but Holland didn't, Cleary would not have been brought back.

I don't think it matters how bad Cleary is at hockey. Holland clearly isn't assessing him based on his ability to play hockey. That's why i fully expect him to be back for another year. If you aren't sure whether Cleary will be back, just ask yourself, "What would a bad GM do?" That will answer your question.

 

[Winger98]

You're still saying Cleary "didn't deny it" thus lying to Holland and the Wings in order to milk millions of dollars. That seems insanely out of character, plus it assumes the Wings management are idiots. So dumb that we, using media quotes, can figure it out but they, actual hockey insides with contacts throughout the league... simply can't.

A secret kept quiet for years. It's really amazing.

Cleary may have not put a specific price tag on it, but he did outright say it was a multi-year contract. The HBO special specifically mentioned he turned down a deal from Philly.

I guess I'm curious why everybody is so quick to believe in secrets and lies rather than the obvious answer that Cleary was just telling the truth? Guy is an awful hockey player now, but he's not a lying jerk.

Babcock, for quite awhile, went to a stock quote about how winning was the most important thing...and then he signed in Toronto. Go ask Nashville fans about what Suter said right up until free agency started and he bolted for Minny. We see it all of the time. Does it make them lying jerks? No, I just think it's part of the business side of the game to not be entirely truthful when dealing with contracts.

I think the only firm offer Cleary had from Philly was a PTO. I think there were almost certainly talks about the sort of deal Cleary could expect should he not crash and burn while on the PTO and that this might have included a three year deal worth something ($3m per season? I don't think so, maybe around $3m total). But was that deal ever written up and put in a safe for Cleary to come back to? No, I don't think so. And if Cleary DID have a deal in place with Philly just to come back to Holland and say, "hey, I got X here...care to give me something to stay?" what does that say about Cleary?

I don't think there's a conspiracy theory, and I don't think anyone is telling an outright lie. I think everyone has had a partial truth, and I tend to fall to the side that says Cleary used an at least partially fictional Philly deal to grease the wheels with Holland, who honestly was probably looking for a way to justify bringing him back. All of this should be moot if Holland would have made the right choice to begin with and told Cleary to pack his bags and enjoy the cheese steaks.

 

[Frk It]

Well we're making some progress here!

It's possible the actual terms of the deal could have changed pending the tryout. But make no mistake, Holmgren and Cleary did have sit downs (that's confirmed) and there was a contract discussed (also confirmed). There was some debate about the actual totals, which I assume Holmgren did throw some numbers up as discussion without a firm offer... which Cleary took as an offer.

But seriously, the wheels were moving strongly on Cleary in Philly. They needed a depth guy like him and were very vocal about bringing him into the fold.

There's just no way I believe Cleary made up a dollar figure and term to leverage Holland (and the rest of the Wings staff). Remember, there's a whole team there with Holland and all it would take is one guy to figure out the lie, over several years, to completely alienate Cleary to the Red Wings.

That's fair.

Regarding the "I think holland is an idiot" comment, I don't think Holland is intentionally being an idiot. I think Holland is letting a personal relationship keep him from doing his job.

 

[abbbaron]

The Cleary-Philly conspiracy crap came up in the Weiss thread. When the terms of the agreement came out ("according to several media reports"), Holmgren caught a lot of crap in the Philly press-- he already had the heat on him after the Bryzgalov affair, so it's no wonder why his reaction was to hedge and say the signing was contingent on a tryout. That Holmgren wasn't "able to give him an immediate contract offer" turned out to be convenient for both sides (though one might argue that it didn't matter much for Holmgren because he was a lame duck at any rate).

 

[Bench]

I don't think there's a conspiracy theory, and I don't think anyone is telling an outright lie. I think everyone has had a partial truth, and I tend to fall to the side that says Cleary used an at least partially fictional Philly deal to grease the wheels with Holland, who honestly was probably looking for a way to justify bringing him back. All of this should be moot if Holland would have made the right choice to begin with and told Cleary to pack his bags and enjoy the cheese steaks.

No, that's still an outright lie. Using a partial truth to "grease wheels" is completely *******, especially if you claim to love the franchise and want to stay.

And the "handshake agreement" came because Holland DID want Cleary back. Babcock wanted Cleary back. Everybody wanted Cleary back, but not at the price he was going to command in free agency. So they agreed to sign him one year for the cap (sucked up by Alfredsson) and said they'd figure out another the next year. Cleary gets a decent deal and the Wings get to keep the guy they wanted.

It had nothing to do with justifying Cleary, because like it or not, they wanted the dude from day 1 that year.

Has Cleary been a bad decision? Yes, of course. But adding on layers of cohesion and subterfuge to the equation isn't necessary. These are old friends who screwed up making a personal decision instead of a hockey decision. That's all there is to it.

The Cleary-Philly conspiracy crap came up in the Weiss thread. When the terms of the agreement came out ("according to several media reports"), Holmgren caught a lot of crap in the Philly press-- he already had the heat on him after the Bryzgalov affair, so it's no wonder why his reaction was to hedge and say the signing was contingent on a tryout. That Holmgren wasn't "able to give him an immediate contract offer" turned out to be convenient for both sides (though one might argue that it didn't matter much for Holmgren because he was a lame duck at any rate).

Thank you. Somebody else gets it.

 

[HockeyinHD]

My problem with his 'plan' is that I don't see a plan.

Right, but you do. I mean, come on. It's not like Holland has changed tactics in the past 2, 4, 6, 12 years. The plan is to:

- Keep most draft picks but to trade down out of the first unless someone they really like is there.

- Understand that since they are drafting late not many of those picks are going to be NHL ready so he likes to have them 'overripe' unless they smash onto the roster.

- Fill in the various roster gaps with middle-tier vets with either established Detroit history or very established NHL histories in order to maximize the consistency of the teams level of play and minimize the risk of abject failure of the signing.

- Manage the cap in such a way as to value year to year flexibility over locking up a core of 6+ guys long term, again to ameliorate risk and emphasize consistency.

It wasn't planned to bring up Nyquist, it was forced. It wasn't planned to bring up Sheahan or Jurco, it was forced.

I think you're overreacting a bit to the timing of those callups. Yes, injuries did force some of them, but it's not like Holland was planning on a) burying those players forever or b) that calling them up "early" actually helped any of them.

Nyquist had already been up for 20+ games the previous year and was not impressive. Sheahan was ok his first season, but certainly not revelatory. Jurco's been just about a bust.

I don't think Holland making those guys full time players sooner would've somehow obviated the acclimation time for any of them, or made Jurco a better NHL player.

Holland is not proactive with his prospects, he lets things outside of his power determine when these things happen. Had Bertuzzi, Samuelsson etc... not gotten hurt that season, the likelihood of Sheahan/Jurco getting substantial playing time is minimal.

I suppose the obvious question here is: and so what? I mean, what real difference do you think Sheahan or Jurco getting more IT actually has? The learning curve is the learning curve. Where it starts doesn't really impact how long it takes.

It's not really a rebuild if you're just waiting for the players who shouldn't be playing to get hurt randomly to bring up players who actually have a future with the team. Be proactive, make room for the kids - that's how its done.

I'm curious, what do you mean when you say 'make room for the kids'? How many kids? All of them who've demonstrated a decent amount of upside? Should the 2015-16 blueline, for instance, have Kronwall, DK, E, XO, Marachenko and Sproul? Should the team push Miller, Glendening, and Andersson aside for Mantha, Pulkinnen and Larkin immediately? Further, in what way could you describe how the roster was handled in 2014-15 as anything but precisely what you wanted in that regard? Finally, 'make room for the kids' can (and often does) run contrary to the obvious organizational goal of staying playoff eligible indefinitely. It introduces a bunch of undefined variables, namely whether those kids are good or consistent.

I get it. I do. The plain, simple fact is that Holland believes being in the playoffs every year is much more important than you or I do. Whether he gets that on his own or it's a building-wide source of pride along the lines of a factory being so many days accident free I don't know, and it's irrelevant anyway. All that matters as a function of understanding why things are done is an awareness of it.

So, that's the plan. Same as the old plan.

 

[Winger98]

No, that's still an outright lie. Using a partial truth to "grease wheels" is completely *******, especially if you claim to love the franchise and want to stay.

And the "handshake agreement" came because Holland DID want Cleary back. Babcock wanted Cleary back. Everybody wanted Cleary back, but not at the price he was going to command in free agency. So they agreed to sign him one year for the cap (sucked up by Alfredsson) and said they'd figure out another the next year. Cleary gets a decent deal and the Wings get to keep the guy they wanted.

It had nothing to do with justifying Cleary, because like it or not, they wanted the dude from day 1 that year.

Has Cleary been a bad decision? Yes, of course. But adding on layers of cohesion and subterfuge to the equation isn't necessary. These are old friends who screwed up making a personal decision instead of a hockey decision. That's all there is to it.

If Cleary was willing to sign for whatever was leftover, why did he go to Philly at all? Detroit didn't want to pay market, they still didn't. Your idea has Cleary leaving millions on the table in Philly to sign for the scraps in Detroit, and for him to have been willing to sign for the scraps from the beginning. Or he wasn't honest about the Philly offer, and Detroit's wasn't looking that bad.

 

[Bench]

If Cleary was willing to sign for whatever was leftover, why did he go to Philly at all? Detroit didn't want to pay market, they still didn't. Your idea has Cleary leaving millions on the table in Philly to sign for the scraps in Detroit, and for him to have been willing to sign for the scraps from the beginning. Or he wasn't honest about the Philly offer, and Detroit's wasn't looking that bad.

Cleary negotiated with the Wings all summer. He wanted to stay, but the Wings didn't want to pay him market value. He found a suitor in Philadelphia, had things all lined up, but didn't want to leave Detroit for personal reasons.

And yes, he did leave money on the table. So much money, Holland gave him $2.5 million dollars this year to play 9 minutes a game for 17 games. The contract explains itself. He didn't sign for "whatever." He was rewarded pretty damn good for the loyalty.

He stayed with Detroit because he wanted to. Because he and Babcock are friends. Because Holland said they'd take care of him, which they did. It's not all that complicated. Things have played out exactly the way they described.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes."

 

[HockeyinHD]

If Cleary was willing to sign for whatever was leftover, why did he go to Philly at all?

Because he thought that they might be willing to pay more, but when they didn't he came back to Detroit and took Holland's retirement package instead?

The change of heart on the Philly end could've come from anywhere. Who knows?

Wasn't there some stories posted about this on the News and whatnot where Holland said something along the lines of 'we've made Dan an offer, but...'? Rings a bell, but I don't recall specifics.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Right, but you do. I mean, come on. It's not like Holland has changed tactics in the past 2, 4, 6, 12 years. The plan is to:

- Keep most draft picks but to trade down out of the first unless someone they really like is there.

- Understand that since they are drafting late not many of those picks are going to be NHL ready so he likes to have them 'overripe' unless they smash onto the roster.

- Fill in the various roster gaps with middle-tier vets with either established Detroit history or very established NHL histories in order to maximize the consistency of the teams level of play and minimize the risk of abject failure of the signing.

- Manage the cap in such a way as to value year to year flexibility over locking up a core of 6+ guys long term, again to ameliorate risk and emphasize consistency.



I think you're overreacting a bit to the timing of those callups. Yes, injuries did force some of them, but it's not like Holland was planning on a) burying those players forever or b) that calling them up "early" actually helped any of them.

Nyquist had already been up for 20+ games the previous year and was not impressive. Sheahan was ok his first season, but certainly not revelatory. Jurco's been just about a bust.

I don't think Holland making those guys full time players sooner would've somehow obviated the acclimation time for any of them, or made Jurco a better NHL player.



I suppose the obvious question here is: and so what? I mean, what real difference do you think Sheahan or Jurco getting more IT actually has? The learning curve is the learning curve. Where it starts doesn't really impact how long it takes.



I'm curious, what do you mean when you say 'make room for the kids'? How many kids? All of them who've demonstrated a decent amount of upside? Should the 2015-16 blueline, for instance, have Kronwall, DK, E, XO, Marachenko and Sproul? Should the team push Miller, Glendening, and Andersson aside for Mantha, Pulkinnen and Larkin immediately? Further, in what way could you describe how the roster was handled in 2014-15 as anything but precisely what you wanted in that regard? Finally, 'make room for the kids' can (and often does) run contrary to the obvious organizational goal of staying playoff eligible indefinitely. It introduces a bunch of undefined variables, namely whether those kids are good or consistent.

I get it. I do. The plain, simple fact is that Holland believes being in the playoffs every year is much more important than you or I do. Whether he gets that on his own or it's a building-wide source of pride along the lines of a factory being so many days accident free I don't know, and it's irrelevant anyway. All that matters as a function of understanding why things are done is an awareness of it.

So, that's the plan. Same as the old plan.

His plan is trash and Holland is all talk during the off season and does the opposite once he realizes July 1st was 24 hours ago.

Nyquist looked fantastic during the Hawks series and Holland said those kids had earned a spot during the off season. What happened on opening night? Nyquist chilling in the AHL and Tatar sitting in the press box. All thanks to Holland's inability to get rid of garbage players or bringing in more garbage players.

The Wings are the only team that go out of their way to prevent their kids from playing meaningful NHL minutes. And it's not like the players ahead of the kids even deserve a roster spot. Wings are run like a corrupt union when it comes to promotion.

What ever the reason for bringing Cleary back, it reflects very poorly on the organization and their ability to put the best product on the ice.

 

[abbbaron]

Because he thought that they might be willing to pay more, but when they didn't he came back to Detroit and took Holland's retirement package instead?

The change of heart on the Philly end could've come from anywhere. Who knows?

Wasn't there some stories posted about this on the News and whatnot where Holland said something along the lines of 'we've made Dan an offer, but...'? Rings a bell, but I don't recall specifics.

From the M-live article:

Cleary rejected the Red Wings' offer on July 3 of a three-year, $5.5 million contract

All indications are that Cleary wanted to have his cake and eat it too. I don't know the technicalities of whether Holmgren actually could've signed him to that contract in September, but from Holmgren's comments in the second article it sounded like he was genuinely interested in having Cleary on the roster:

Asked if he thought Cleary would have been here had the Flyers been able to give him an immediate contract offer, Holmgren laughed quietly and said, “Probably, yeah. I think that might have given us a better shot.â€

If it was possible at that time to sign Cleary to a contract, it sounds like it might've been Cleary who wanted to hold off until the last possible moment. It sure as heck didn't seem like the change of heart came from Philly's side.

 

[Actual Thought*]

My problem with his 'plan' is that I don't see a plan. It wasn't planned to bring up Nyquist, it was forced. It wasn't planned to bring up Sheahan or Jurco, it was forced. Holland is not proactive with his prospects, he lets things outside of his power determine when these things happen. Had Bertuzzi, Samuelsson etc... not gotten hurt that season, the likelihood of Sheahan/Jurco getting substantial playing time is minimal.

It's not really a rebuild if you're just waiting for the players who shouldn't be playing to get hurt randomly to bring up players who actually have a future with the team. Be proactive, make room for the kids - that's how its done.

Bringing in a bunch of raw kids and letting them get their confidence destroyed by NHL players is not a development plan either. Basically you are complaining that when an opportunity arose we had kids prepared to take advantage.

There is a lot more to being an NHL player than "talent". These kids need to grow into the durability needed to handle the grind of an NHL season. I know you don't see it and you will never be convinced but it really should be obvious what Holland's plan is. I could understand a few years ago but the roster is steadily improving. By now it should be very clear that the plan is working. I am not sure how you could of watched this team play last year and come to any other conclusion.

 

[Actual Thought*]

His plan is trash and Holland is all talk during the off season and does the opposite once he realizes July 1st was 24 hours ago.

Nyquist looked fantastic during the Hawks series and Holland said those kids had earned a spot during the off season. What happened on opening night? Nyquist chilling in the AHL and Tatar sitting in the press box. All thanks to Holland's inability to get rid of garbage players or bringing in more garbage players.

The Wings are the only team that go out of their way to prevent their kids from playing meaningful NHL minutes. And it's not like the players ahead of the kids even deserve a roster spot. Wings are run like a corrupt union when it comes to promotion.

What ever the reason for bringing Cleary back, it reflects very poorly on the organization and their ability to put the best product on the ice.

Actually Nyquist hesitated on the last play of the series so he got pasted and gave the puck away. Truth be told Nyquist cost them the series. Sure he looked good sometimes but his inconsistency led to the game 7 winner.

 

[Fugu]

From the M-live article:


All indications are that Cleary wanted to have his cake and eat it too. I don't know the technicalities of whether Holmgren actually could've signed him to that contract in September, but from Holmgren's comments in the second article it sounded like he was genuinely interested in having Cleary on the roster:



If it was possible at that time to sign Cleary to a contract, it sounds like it might've been Cleary who wanted to hold off until the last possible moment. It sure as heck didn't seem like the change of heart came from Philly's side.

Yes, that's how I remember it too. He wanted more money that KH offered, and probably thought he'd get more offers and suitors. Furthermore, there may have been some pressure from home to stay in Michigan.

The Wings weren't able to offer as much as Philly that year, so the handshake agreement. That's how I remember it. Could be wrong.

 

[Heaton]

Bringing in a bunch of raw kids and letting them get their confidence destroyed by NHL players is not a development plan either. Basically you are complaining that when an opportunity arose we had kids prepared to take advantage.

There is a lot more to being an NHL player than "talent". These kids need to grow into the durability needed to handle the grind of an NHL season. I know you don't see it and you will never be convinced but it really should be obvious what Holland's plan is. I could understand a few years ago but the roster is steadily improving. By now it should be very clear that the plan is working. I am not sure how you could of watched this team play last year and come to any other conclusion.

Explain the Nyquist situation then. What other organization that develops well handles their talent like this? There was absolutely no ****ing reason that Nyquist should've played in the AHL at 24 years old. Plenty of good organizations are able to insert talent on the fly. The Wings seem to have to wait for a rash of injuries or waiver exempt status running out.

There is no obvious plan.

 

[Heaton]

Right, but you do. I mean, come on. It's not like Holland has changed tactics in the past 2, 4, 6, 12 years. The plan is to:

- Keep most draft picks but to trade down out of the first unless someone they really like is there.

- Understand that since they are drafting late not many of those picks are going to be NHL ready so he likes to have them 'overripe' unless they smash onto the roster.

- Fill in the various roster gaps with middle-tier vets with either established Detroit history or very established NHL histories in order to maximize the consistency of the teams level of play and minimize the risk of abject failure of the signing.

- Manage the cap in such a way as to value year to year flexibility over locking up a core of 6+ guys long term, again to ameliorate risk and emphasize consistency.

Great strategy when we had Lidstrom. Terrible strategy when our best defenseman is Kronwall and we haven't drafted anywhere near his ability in the last 15 years.

I think you're overreacting a bit to the timing of those callups. Yes, injuries did force some of them, but it's not like Holland was planning on a) burying those players forever or b) that calling them up "early" actually helped any of them.

How did re-signing the corpses of Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Cleary help the team?

Nyquist had already been up for 20+ games the previous year and was not impressive. Sheahan was ok his first season, but certainly not revelatory. Jurco's been just about a bust.

Better than the players mentioned above who had zero future with the team. Holland is a hoarder and only plays prospects when he is forced to.

I don't think Holland making those guys full time players sooner would've somehow obviated the acclimation time for any of them, or made Jurco a better NHL player.

That's certainly one opinion. It's possible Jurco would have progressed past where he is now, Jurco is one of the very few exceptions.

I suppose the obvious question here is: and so what? I mean, what real difference do you think Sheahan or Jurco getting more IT actually has? The learning curve is the learning curve. Where it starts doesn't really impact how long it takes.

Are you saying you think Holland had all of this pegged? If so, why the dumbfounded quotes by Babcock and Jimmy D being surprised how good some of these kids are?

So, that's the plan. Same as the old plan.

And it was a great plan before Datsyuk and Z were close to 40 and Lidstrom was still around. The Blackhawks and the Patriots do it the right way, keep your stars, move out the bloated contracts and put your kids in positions to succeed. Holland buries the kids until they've burned up valuable productive years, keeps the loyalty game going long past the productive years and doesn't keep his stars (Hossa) given the opportunity.

Unless Larkin is a stud in the NHL, this team is going downhill fast.

I'll put it to you this way, HiHD, we had these exact same debates coming out of the '04 lockout. You ended up being right then, but we were in a much, much different situation. Let's see where this team is in 4 years when it's been over a decade since our last Finals appearance.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Explain the Nyquist situation then. What other organization that develops well handles their talent like this? There was absolutely no ****ing reason that Nyquist should've played in the AHL at 24 years old. Plenty of good organizations are able to insert talent on the fly. The Wings seem to have to wait for a rash of injuries or waiver exempt status running out.

There is no obvious plan.

Are you still complaining that Nyquist played like 10 games in the minors 2 years ago? That is your case for why Holland doesn't have a plan? Just try thinking it through. Just consider the value of depth and development. If you do these things it will become obvious. If you don't do these things nothing I say will make any difference.

 

[jkutswings]

MOD
What do you MEAN nobody else has rebuilt without high draft picks? Clearly nobody else has the tenacity of our scouting staff, or the insight of me as a general manager.

And what do you MEAN we keep getting bounced early from the playoffs? The last SIX YEARS were just coincidences. Just get in, and anybody can win. Our year will come.

When you're so obsessed with keeping a worthless streak alive that you'd rather foster mediocrity than risk breaking some eggs to make an omelette that's actually worth eating, you get things like YET ANOTHER year of Dan Cleary.

Rebuild, reload, or retire. Still waiting for Holland to embrace one of those choices, rather than go halfway on two of them...