Speculation: Babcock is gone, but will Cleary be back? Also tank talk.

Heaton

Moderator
Feb 13, 2004
22,548
925
Auburn Hills
I want him back because of how much entertainment this forum would provide me.

I agree. Bringing Cleary back just confirms my thoughts that Holland isn't serious about re-building this team and winning anymore cups. I really hope we don't get as bad as New Jersey before Holland follows Lou's footsteps and hangs it up.
 

Wingdings

Registered User
Jun 5, 2011
3,002
7
MI
Haha, wow, this would actually be hilarious. No way it happens.


... It's probably happening.
 

Flowah

Registered User
Nov 30, 2009
10,249
547
It's not about a kid sitting. It's about another veteran sitting. If Franzen is coming back, there's just no spots.

Abdelkader - Z - Nyquist
helm - Dats - Pulkkinen
Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar
Miller - Glendening - Ferraro
(Weiss, Franzen)

It's about any superior player sitting for Dan "Veteran Presence" Cleary.

Haha, wow, this would actually be hilarious. No way it happens.


... It's probably happening.

It's already happened 2 years in a row where we said collectively "Haha, Holland's not that dumb is he?" and we pretend like it's a joke and then it happens. At this point, I have no faith.
 

BinCookin

Registered User
Feb 15, 2012
6,160
1,377
London, ON
It's about any superior player sitting for Dan "Veteran Presence" Cleary.



It's already happened 2 years in a row where we said collectively "Haha, Holland's not that dumb is he?" and we pretend like it's a joke and then it happens. At this point, I have no faith.

Well Last time we resigned cleary he had played 55? games that season.

This time that decision would be made on 17? games

Its a big difference.

I will go out on a limb and say 100% he is not resigned.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
11,110
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He wouldn't have. But the principle alone - having a younger (and very likely cheaper) player watching from the suite instead would be reason enough to keep <insert prospect here> over Dan Cleary.
 

Claypool

Registered User
Jan 12, 2009
13,670
4,352
He wouldn't have. But the principle alone - having a younger (and very likely cheaper) player watching from the suite instead would be reason enough to keep <insert prospect here> over Dan Cleary.

That's a dumb reason.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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That's now how I saw it at all.

First of all, it was all contingent on a try-out. No objective hockey evaluator in this world watches Dan Cleary play hockey, and then awards him a 3+ million dollar contract. Was not going to happen, don't believe that for a second.

Why do you think Cleary went the whole summer without a real contract offer, then had to resort to that? Cleary's not dumb. He realized his career was in jeopardy, understood another GM might not actually not think he was good enough, and begged for a last second meeting with Ken and Mike and played the sympathy card.

If Holland would have let him go to that try-out, his career would have been over. That's why I will bet he couldn't do it. But he should have.

Your version still includes multiple people lying and maintaining that lie for years. Dan Clearly specifically lying to Ken Holland. Does that seem likely to you?

And I've posted the links before, the Philly writers all had Cleary pegged for the roster. The contract amount Holmgren waffled on later, but it was a foregone conclusion he was suiting up for them. I'm not lying to you here, because I have more ethics than you think Dan Cleary and Helen St. James do... Who you're accusing of basically stealing millions of dollars on false pretenses.

And Holland and the rest of the Wings brass were too stupid to figure it out, despite knowing everyone else in the hockey world. Gah... It's so contrived.
 

HockeyinHD

Semi-retired former active poster.
Jun 18, 2006
11,972
28
I agree. Bringing Cleary back just confirms my thoughts that Holland isn't serious about re-building this team and winning anymore cups.

Me not being able to run a 4 minute mile means I am not serious about physical fitness.

The point is that re-building a team and winning Cups with a re-built team without missing the playoffs for years and years is not something I've seen anyone actually do yet. Pointing out that the failure to accomplish the (as yet) impossible implies an absence of the attempt or willingness to try seems to be something of a logical fallacy.

I personally don't care if the Wings tank for a few years and roll up some high draft picks. Holland obviously does, and he's trying to do something no one else has done (rebuild without high drafts) while continuing to do something no one else has done, namely be in the playoffs so regularly that someone could have been born, grown, and graduated college by now and still not ever seen the team not in them.

Cleary's deal always read to me as the A) main contract, which was a toss off nearly league minimum slot to a depth player who may or may not ever get any use, and b), the GP bonus which read as his career achievement/retirement gift from the organization. Holland always tries to hook up the depth guys with a little something on their way out the door, especially when they were relevant in some substantial way to its success somewhere along the line.

IIRC the GP requirement was 10 games, yes? It was obviously intended to be met, and obviously designed so it could be shoved off onto this years cap if necessary (I don't remember if they declared they were moving that bonus forward or not). I don't think Detroit was right up against the cap last year so they could have stashed it then, but even if they moved it forward to 2016 I don't think it'll be in the way.
 

Actual Thought*

Guest
Me not being able to run a 4 minute mile means I am not serious about physical fitness.

The point is that re-building a team and winning Cups with a re-built team without missing the playoffs for years and years is not something I've seen anyone actually do yet. Pointing out that the failure to accomplish the (as yet) impossible implies an absence of the attempt or willingness to try seems to be something of a logical fallacy.

I personally don't care if the Wings tank for a few years and roll up some high draft picks. Holland obviously does, and he's trying to do something no one else has done (rebuild without high drafts) while continuing to do something no one else has done, namely be in the playoffs so regularly that someone could have been born, grown, and graduated college by now and still not ever seen the team not in them.

Cleary's deal always read to me as the A) main contract, which was a toss off nearly league minimum slot to a depth player who may or may not ever get any use, and b), the GP bonus which read as his career achievement/retirement gift from the organization. Holland always tries to hook up the depth guys with a little something on their way out the door, especially when they were relevant in some substantial way to its success somewhere along the line.

IIRC the GP requirement was 10 games, yes? It was obviously intended to be met, and obviously designed so it could be shoved off onto this years cap if necessary (I don't remember if they declared they were moving that bonus forward or not). I don't think Detroit was right up against the cap last year so they could have stashed it then, but even if they moved it forward to 2016 I don't think it'll be in the way.

There you go. Signing Cleary had zero negative effect. He didn't take up usable cap. He didn't take a usable roster spot. Any claims to the contrary are just grasping at straws in an effort to discredit Holland. Nothing more and nothing less.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,296
14,792
Your version still includes multiple people lying and maintaining that lie for years. Dan Clearly specifically lying to Ken Holland. Does that seem likely to you?

And I've posted the links before, the Philly writers all had Cleary pegged for the roster. The contract amount Holmgren waffled on later, but it was a foregone conclusion he was suiting up for them. I'm not lying to you here, because I have more ethics than you think Dan Cleary and Helen St. James do... Who you're accusing of basically stealing millions of dollars on false pretenses.

And Holland and the rest of the Wings brass were too stupid to figure it out, despite knowing everyone else in the hockey world. Gah... It's so contrived.

It doesn't really matter if Philly writers thought he was going there. He had to try out still. He had to prove it first.

Sorry, but I saw how Cleary started that season, and also looked at camp, and I don't think any objective GM awards him a contract based on play. Holland awards him contracts because he has lost all ability to be objective on the matter, for god knows what reason.
 

Actual Thought*

Guest
It doesn't really matter if Philly writers thought he was going there. He had to try out still. He had to prove it first.

Sorry, but I saw how Cleary started that season, and also looked at camp, and I don't think any objective GM awards him a contract based on play. Holland awards him contracts because he has lost all ability to be objective on the matter, for god knows what reason.

So which prospect do you suppose would have gained so much by sitting in Dan Cleary's press box seat? Maybe we should just sell GR and give all the prospects season tickets?
 

Heaton

Moderator
Feb 13, 2004
22,548
925
Auburn Hills
Me not being able to run a 4 minute mile means I am not serious about physical fitness.

The point is that re-building a team and winning Cups with a re-built team without missing the playoffs for years and years is not something I've seen anyone actually do yet. Pointing out that the failure to accomplish the (as yet) impossible implies an absence of the attempt or willingness to try seems to be something of a logical fallacy.

I personally don't care if the Wings tank for a few years and roll up some high draft picks. Holland obviously does, and he's trying to do something no one else has done (rebuild without high drafts) while continuing to do something no one else has done, namely be in the playoffs so regularly that someone could have been born, grown, and graduated college by now and still not ever seen the team not in them.

Cleary's deal always read to me as the A) main contract, which was a toss off nearly league minimum slot to a depth player who may or may not ever get any use, and b), the GP bonus which read as his career achievement/retirement gift from the organization. Holland always tries to hook up the depth guys with a little something on their way out the door, especially when they were relevant in some substantial way to its success somewhere along the line.

IIRC the GP requirement was 10 games, yes? It was obviously intended to be met, and obviously designed so it could be shoved off onto this years cap if necessary (I don't remember if they declared they were moving that bonus forward or not). I don't think Detroit was right up against the cap last year so they could have stashed it then, but even if they moved it forward to 2016 I don't think it'll be in the way.

My problem with his 'plan' is that I don't see a plan. It wasn't planned to bring up Nyquist, it was forced. It wasn't planned to bring up Sheahan or Jurco, it was forced. Holland is not proactive with his prospects, he lets things outside of his power determine when these things happen. Had Bertuzzi, Samuelsson etc... not gotten hurt that season, the likelihood of Sheahan/Jurco getting substantial playing time is minimal.

It's not really a rebuild if you're just waiting for the players who shouldn't be playing to get hurt randomly to bring up players who actually have a future with the team. Be proactive, make room for the kids - that's how its done.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,296
14,792
So which prospect do you suppose would have gained so much by sitting in Dan Cleary's press box seat? Maybe we should just sell GR and give all the prospects season tickets?

The good thing about having an extra forward who isn't as useless as Cleary is you can actually use them without being scared.

What prospect would have made sense to give Cleary's spot to? Ferraro or Nestrasil. Ferraro who went on to take prove he could contribute to this team in the playoffs and steal Jokers job, and Nestrasil who went on to have a really nice 2nd half.

But yeah, let's just waste moneyand a roster spot on Cleary every year just because.
 

Heaton

Moderator
Feb 13, 2004
22,548
925
Auburn Hills
The good thing about having an extra forward who isn't as useless as Cleary is you can actually use them without being scared.

What prospect would have made sense to give Cleary's spot to? Ferraro or Nestrasil. Ferraro who went on to take prove he could contribute to this team in the playoffs and steal Jokers job, and Nestrasil who went on to have a really nice 2nd half.

But yeah, let's just waste moneyand a roster spot on Cleary every year just because.

Hell, why should Cleary EVER retire if this is the treatment he's going to get? Maybe he can beat Gordie's record and play 10 games a season since the roster spot doesn't matter.
 

SpookyTsuki

Registered User
Dec 3, 2014
15,916
671
Hell, why should Cleary EVER retire if this is the treatment he's going to get? Maybe he can beat Gordie's record and play 10 games a season since the roster spot doesn't matter.

BREAKING NEWS: Daniel Cleary just broke Gretzky's records! Goes down as greatest player of all time.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,244
15,036
crease
It doesn't really matter if Philly writers thought he was going there. He had to try out still. He had to prove it first.

Sorry, but I saw how Cleary started that season, and also looked at camp, and I don't think any objective GM awards him a contract based on play. Holland awards him contracts because he has lost all ability to be objective on the matter, for god knows what reason.

Your entire argument hinges on "He's not good at hockey."

My entire argument hinges upon I don't think Holland is a total idiot, that Cleary isn't a liar, and that Helen St. James also wasn't carrying water for a conspiracy on a bottom 6 player.

You're straight up saying Cleary lied and cheated Holland out of millions of dollars on a fake offer. That's what you're saying. And that nobody in the Red Wings could figure this out... but you did! You figured it out.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,296
14,792
Your entire argument hinges on "He's not good at hockey."

My entire argument hinges upon I don't think Holland is a total idiot, that Cleary isn't a liar, and that Helen St. James also wasn't carrying water for a conspiracy on a bottom 6 player.

You're straight up saying Cleary lied and cheated Holland out of millions of dollars on a fake offer. That's what you're saying. And that nobody in the Red Wings could figure this out... but you did! You figured it out.

I don't get how what I am saying is sending that message.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,244
15,036
crease
I don't get how what I am saying is sending that message.

Because you think there never was a contract from Philly. Which means Cleary lied to everybody.

All you've offered as rebuttal is that no GM would give Cleary a deal. So somehow the Wings not only are so awful at evaluating talent with Cleary, but they also bought his lie. It's just such a web of lies and idiot behavior, I think it's way more realistic that Cleary did have verbal talks with Holmgren about his deal.

Hell, Holmgren is the one that said Cleary was such an upstanding guy and of great moral character.
 

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