Auston Matthews vs Patrik Laine - Round III

[teravaineSAROS]

How do Finns fans see Barkov vs Laine?
Since Auston plays much the same way as Barkov

Barkov had a better overall season and was more mature in his game, probably an earlier bloomer too. However the way Laine played in the Liiga playoffs was just exceptional. He's just a guy who keeps surprising you, I really like Barkov and preferred him over Laine all of 2015 atleast but if I had to pick one of them for a game 7 I'd pick Laine without hestitation.

If he surprises us in these coming Team Finland games i'll edge it to Laine as far as pre-draft season goes (I already do but it's pretty close and Barkovs defensive play was amazing already so if anyone disagrees I wouldn't argue with it). I feel like this debate is about wether Laine can do what he did in the Liiga playoffs in the NHL playoffs too or not and if he can I'd take him over Barkov.

 

[93LEAFS]

You just read my post how you want to read by yourself. Turris and Koivu was #1 C's back then, Derek Stepan was also #2 C back then for Rags. He also played against NHL top 6 D's. But the message from my posts are 17 year old should not even play against games against NHL regulars that are key players for their teams. To do it is great chance to measure where he stacks against them. But him dominating the games against them is northing short of special. What Barkov did that year was in european standpoint much better what "big 3" did in NA. MacKinnon had excellent Memorial Cup run. Barkov had exceptional year in europe that happens once in 15-20 years. To me NA media and scouting agencies were really biased to not include Barkov in the same group of players. You don't agree? What is so wrong in my posts in this regard?

I have also stated that Leafs will most likely pick Matthews with their #1 pick, stated that Matthews was better in the game yesterday, stated and fought hard that Nylander has better offensive potential than Mikko Rantanen. If you think i have biased opinion towards finnish prospects then put some facts here. I have only stated that i like Laine more than Matthews and i have posted my arguments here. You like Matthews better and you have your arguments. Do i have to call you biased? No i have not called you biased even once. You calling me biased is your only pathethic weapon against my arguments. If you are not capable of intelligent debate i will stop messaging with you. It's like debating with a guy who have no skill to debate but only thing to answer arguments is to put words in my mouth or call me biased.

I was just saying stop posting wrong infos. Like Turris being only borderline 1# C to play against Barkov, or Laine putting 2 points in 5 games to start his playoffs. Who really even cares if he played only against 2 #1 C's and 1 #2 C from NHL? He dominated against them at 17 year of age multiple times. That is not special? In your opinion he had to dominate against high end NHL every night and out to make himself including into "Big 3" in NA media and scouting agencies? Gimme
a break...

When Turris played in Finland he was a number 2 centre. Turris only became a number one center the next year after Spezza was traded. And I flat out acknowledged I misremembered something in regards to the playoffs. I said Barkov was special, what I said was there was scepticism about young Finnish talents at that point. Due to the fact we had not seen a true star comeout of that league since Mikko Koivu at the earliest and possibly all the way back to Olli Jokinen. And the only really big scouting agency is NHL Central scouting, which separates players by region, which Barkov was the top of.

Edit; But fine, I'll agree you aren't biased (and I've actually only used that statement once) when you were claiming that teams were biased against euros, which I don't believe they are. I may of accidentally grouped you in with a certain batch of extremely homer finnish fans. I agree certain aspects of the media clearly are biased, but I don't think that extends to the actual scouting agencies or who McKenzie polls.

 

[93LEAFS]

Have you noticed, that you've said the same things in a different format for about hundred times now, all the while ignoring some, if not all factors surrounding Laine's regular season in each post.

- He had to earn the ice time
- Played 2nd or 3rd line (due to lack of roster depth)
- Only got lifted up to first unit at the end of the playoffs

Laine's and Matthew's regular seasons are not comparable due to circumstances involved. Had Laine been in NLA and having 1st line caliber guys on the wing while not actually having to start the season in lower lines, we can only imagine his goal and point totals. In the end, their regular seasons cannot be compared by ppg or the usual stats. It's not black on white as you like to paint it while throwing the same numbers in over and over. Doesn't it strike you one bit when you hear that some, if not most European scouts who have followed these guys throughout the season (and who actually are aware of their situations while being capable of viewing the whole picture) prefer Laine over Matthews?

Now, no one here is dismissing the fact that Matthews had in fact a great season for an undrafted player. However, all things considered that doesn't even come that close compared to a double gold winner and playoff MVP in one of the hardest leagues in the world. What Laine has accomplished this year has never been seen before throughout the Europe. Nothing Matthews' has on the plate compares to that.

You are going circles and repeating things to no end like a broken record.

Matthews was good enough to earn his minutes, I don't ignore it. But Laine did get 2nd line minutes most of the year (17 a game) while getting 1st line PP time. I don't think an extra 2 to 3 minutes a game (which is what top offensive players get, especially if they have no PK duties), I do not believe that is enough to actually overcome the difference in the rates they produced relative to their league. It is unlikely even with those extra minutes Laine's ppg jumps into the top 5 in SM-Liiga. And show me where many european scouts have Laine as higher? McKenzie said some do, not that it was an overwhelming consensus. And when's the last time a draft eligible player had the best goal scoring rate in a european league and the 2nd higher PPG? Because I'd say that is also an extremely rare accomplishment.

 

[IFK]

Matthews was good enough to earn his minutes, I don't ignore it. But Laine did get 2nd line minutes most of the year (17 a game) while getting 1st line PP time. I don't think an extra 2 to 3 minutes a game (which is what top offensive players get, especially if they have no PK duties), I do not believe that is enough to actually overcome the difference in the rates they produced relative to their league. It is unlikely even with those extra minutes Laine's ppg jumps into the top 5 in SM-Liiga. And show me where many european scouts have Laine as higher? McKenzie said some do, not that it was an overwhelming consensus. And when's the last time a draft eligible player had the best goal scoring rate in a european league and the 2nd higher PPG? Because I'd say that is also an extremely rare accomplishment.

It's not that much how many minutes Laine get, it was more if he had best line mates, Kuusela who was best player in regular season in Liiga and he is good scoring goal, but also good playmaker and Lajunen is very good two-way forward who is also Finland WHC team. Laine's line mates wasn't very good playmakers and they wasn't even close Kuusela and Lajunen skill wise so it would made big difference.

 

[93LEAFS]

It's not that much how many minutes Laine get, it was more if he had best line mates, Kuusela who was best player in regular season and he is good scoring goal, but also good playmaker and Lajunen is very good two-way forward who is also Finland WHC team. Laine's line mates wasn't very good playmakers and they wasn't even close Kuusela and Lajunen skill wise so it would made big difference.

That can also go the opposite way though, usually if you are playing with weaker linemates, the team matches a weaker line against you. So you see less of top checking units and 1st line opponents. So while it may hurt him slightly I don't think it drastically changes how successful he was on a per-minute basis. For example, Bozak scored at the same rate this year as he did when Kessel was on his wing. Partially due to getting easier zone-starts and another by usually not playing against other teams top lines.

An example of an elite player used like this is actually Patrick Kane, who has been on the 1b line with multiple different centers over his career and 1st PP unit.

 

[cotopaxi]

And when's the last time a draft eligible player had the best goal scoring rate in a european league and the 2nd higher PPG? Because I'd say that is also an extremely rare accomplishment.

Pointless to compare but anyway, I think Barkov comes pretty close to that. He was almost PPG in his draft year and about 0.4GPG. Only a few guys were ahead of him in both statistics. If you consider the differences in both leagues I think it's fair to say they're atleast close.

 

[FinlandPanther]

Pointless to compare but anyway, I think Barkov comes pretty close to that. He was almost PPG in his draft year and about 0.4GPG. Only a few guys were ahead of him in both statistics. If you consider the differences in both leagues I think it's fair to say they're atleast close.

Barkov has a way better year in my opinion. The NLA is not that great. It's getting much more exposure from "experts" since Matthews plays there. Matthews had a great year but let's not pretend like Liiga and NLA are really comparable.

 

[93LEAFS]

Pointless to compare but anyway, I think Barkov comes pretty close to that. He was almost PPG in his draft year and about 0.4GPG. Only a few guys were ahead of him in both statistics. If you consider the differences in both leagues I think it's fair to say they're atleast close.

On quick glance Barkov was 10th in Liiga in PPG in his draft year, when I eliminate all the NHL players above him (Karlsson, Fehr, Filpulla etc). Then again, Barkov was also almost a full calendar year younger which has to be factored in.

Edit: In regards to goals on a quick glance it appears he would be around 5, when removing NHLers from the equation.

 

[kelsier]

It's not that much how many minutes Laine get, it was more if he had best line mates, Kuusela who was best player in regular season in Liiga and he is good scoring goal, but also good playmaker and Lajunen is very good two-way forward who is also Finland WHC team. Laine's line mates wasn't very good playmakers and they wasn't even close Kuusela and Lajunen skill wise so it would made big difference.

Nothing more to add here. Think he was playing closer to 15 mins a game (could probably double-check this easily), but other than playing in the lower lines he didn't have the offensive quality around him to put up points. He was on Kuusela's level (who was the point leader in FEL) or even above it at the end of the play off run. That alone should light some perspective on the matter, but also the factor people rather tend to leave out or ignore if it's not supporting their case. Scouts are well aware of this regardless, hence Laine having the support from European scouts.

 

[93LEAFS]

Nothing more to add here. Think he was playing closer to 15 mins a game (could probably double-check this easily), but other than playing in the lower lines he didn't have the offensive quality around him to put up points. He was on Kuusela's level (who was the point leader in FEL) or even above it at the end of the play off run. That alone should light some perspective on the matter, but also the factor people rather tend to leave out or ignore if it's not supporting their case. Scouts are well aware of this regardless, hence Laine having the support from European scouts.

Kunekune told me somewhere on here last week he got 17 minutes a game in regular season play and 18 minutes a game in the playoffs.

edit: Here 17.12 in the regular season, 18.37 in the playoffs

http://liiga.fi/pelaajat/30001639/laine-patrik

 

[cotopaxi]

On quick glance Barkov was 10th in Liiga in PPG in his draft year, when I eliminate all the NHL players above him (Karlsson, Fehr, Filpulla etc). Then again, Barkov was also almost a full calendar year younger which has to be factored in.

Edit: In regards to goals on a quick glance it appears he would be around 5, when removing NHLers from the equation.

Yeah. So do we agree to some extent here?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Barkov has a way better year in my opinion. The NLA is not that great. It's getting much more exposure from "experts" since Matthews plays there. Matthews had a great year but let's not pretend like Liiga and NLA are really comparable.

The NLA is not on the same tier as Liiga. The NA players playing in the league I would even say are a tier below most AHL players, some are just playing out the string of their hockey careers. Now saying this, Matthews at 18 asserted himself well. But Laine at 17 did play in a better league against better players.

 

[93LEAFS]

Yeah. So do we agree to some extent here?

Its interesting, I agree. Although I do think Matthews will produce more than Barkov's rookie year in the NHL, but I also think he may get easier minutes. I think going forward Matthews vs Barkov vs Eichel is going to be an interesting battle. Similar to how the Pacific had its battle of big centers.

 

[cotopaxi]

Its interesting, I agree. Although I do think Matthews will produce more than Barkov's rookie year in the NHL, but I also think he may get easier minutes. I think going forward Matthews vs Barkov vs Eichel is going to be an interesting battle. Similar to how the Pacific had its battle of big centers.

Yeah it's getting really interesting. So many upcoming centers. I agree that Matthews will very likely put up better numbers in his first NHL season than Barkov. I feel that this Laine vs Matthews thing will be going on for years, and I really don't mind Laine going second because like you mentioned earlier he definitely will use this as motivation.

 

[93LEAFS]

Yeah it's getting really interesting. So many upcoming centers. I agree that Matthews will very likely put up better numbers in his first NHL season than Barkov. I feel that this Laine vs Matthews thing will be going on for years, and I really don't mind Laine going second because like you mentioned earlier he definitely will use this as motivation.

I assume you are Finnish, I did the best I could on this site, but how many PP goals does Laine have? I assume either AV or YV stands for it, or is not on the stat sheet?

http://liiga.fi/pelaajat/30001639/laine-patrik

 

[cotopaxi]

I assume you are Finnish, I did the best I could on this site, but how many PP goals does Laine have? I assume either AV or YV stands for it, or is not on the stat sheet?

http://liiga.fi/pelaajat/30001639/laine-patrik

Yeah YV stands for PP goals and AV for shorthanded ones.

 

[skillhockey]

I assume you are Finnish, I did the best I could on this site, but how many PP goals does Laine have? I assume either AV or YV stands for it, or is not on the stat sheet?

http://liiga.fi/pelaajat/30001639/laine-patrik

Yeah, 9 regular season, 5 playoffs.

 

[WigWam]

i assume you are finnish, i did the best i could on this site, but how many pp goals does laine have? I assume either av or yv stands for it, or is not on the stat sheet?

http://liiga.fi/pelaajat/30001639/laine-patrik

pp=yv

 

[Whileee]

Totally unnecessary comment

Actually, I meant it. I don't think there's a more significant place to play if you are a young star than Toronto. It's the biggest stage in the best league with the highest hockey media concentration in the world.

 

[X66]

People that are saying that one league is better than the other are just grasping.

Button himself said there isn't much difference between the leagues, which is why you see a ton of nhl players play there during the lockout as well.

 

[93LEAFS]

Actually, I meant it. I don't think there's a more significant place to play if you are a young star than Toronto. It's the biggest stage in the best league with the highest hockey media concentration in the world.

It will be interesting if he becomes a top 3 to 5 player in the league. Toronto has never had a top 3 or 5 player here since the 40's arguably (The big M and Keon are also in the discussion). Dougie's runner up for the Hart Trophy is probably the closest, but that was short and he's a god here just for making the Conf finals.

 

[cotopaxi]

People that are saying that one league is better than the other are just grasping.

Button himself said there isn't much difference between the leagues, which is why you see a ton of nhl players play there during the lockout as well.

That is still false. Finland is far ahead of Switzerland in junior production which alone makes FEL a tougher and more competitive league than NLA. Everything proves this, look at their CHL or international success.

 

[X66]

That is still false. Finland is far ahead of Switzerland in junior production which alone makes FEL a tougher and more competitive league than NLA. Everything proves this, look at their CHL or international success.

I'm not arguing one league is better than the other etc. Just that the gap might not be as wide as people think.

 

[Chased By Trolls]

Button himself said there isn't much difference between the leagues, which is why you see a ton of nhl players play there during the lockout as well.

Actual reasons:

- more money
- less travel
- lighter schedule
- easier games
- better weather
- central location, easier to travel around on their euro vacation
- you can actually see the sun sometimes (no polar night)

 

[cotopaxi]

I'm not arguing one league is better than the other etc. Just that the gap might not be as wide as people think.

Well how I see it is people really underestimate how big the gap actually is. NLA has only relatively recently started closing it. FEL and SHL are still pretty clearly the best leagues in EU because of long history of good and well structured junior systems.