The difference between finishing 1st and 7th in your division can seriously hinge on a single pick, that's how small the margins are. Don't think that because you finished 7th that it means we think your team sucks, because that's not the case.
Thanks. I can see that. It does look like a competitive division. Which teams should be 6th and 7th don't jump out, do they? I hope not.
- very low grit/toughness level... You cannot win in the ATD without the right balance of skill and toughness. A line that looks good by NHL standards will get crushed in the ATD because the physicality standard is considerably higher.
This Colorado team is gritty and tough!!!!!!
The Avs defense for sure is VERY gritty and tough, will knock heads around for sure.
PILOTE: "... one of the most feared defensemen of Original Six hockey.. renowned as a tough guy who should be avoided, a reputation enhanced when he knocked both Henri and Maurice Richard out cold during the same mix-up." (from Legends of Hockey)
BOUCHER: "partnered with King Clancy to form one of the toughest, most effective duos in the league" (from LofH). He also is listed as 24th all time in "normalized penalty minutes", ahead of Chris Nilan and Hooley Smith, according to one analysis:
http://www.hockeyforum.com/nhl-forum/21511-all-time-goons.html
BOIVIN: Tim Horton himself claimed that Boivin was the toughest defenseman to beat in the entire league. 'Nuff said.
CARLYLE: 120 PIM in 69 career NHL playoff games.
RAMAGE: career 2226 PIM
VADNAIS: 6'1 and often would fight to protect teammates. Even takes on Dave Shultz where needed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf31Mn4ESC0
The Avalanche is tough and gritty enough to defend its own from cheapshots and to handle rough and tumble play defensively. Patrick Roy is grinning in this fantasy world at the combination of skill and toughness on the blueline in front of him. The crease will be cleared and he won't be run into much. He can do his job, being an elite goalie for over two decades.
Now as for forwards. You argue sturminator that forward lines can't be effective without guys to go into corners and along the baords to win pucks and yes, that's true. But does every line have to play dump and chase hockey? Can't a puck possession line succeed? gretzky, Kurri and Coffey combined for hundreds of goals without dumping and chasing the puck. The Soviets and Red Wings Russian-5 unit in the nineties showed that lines don't need to play dump and chase hockey to succeed. I agree a TEAM needs some lines to do that. But not every line, especially a top skilled line, it's not necessary, especially on a team DEEP in offensive ability.
You think the Avs first line will be stopped by an aggressive defensive team sturminator, well what about the other three lines of the Avs?
GOULET was a full tilt forechecker who went into corners and came out with pucks, loved playing in traffic and sped into countless non-icing calls to recover pucks deep. He will get the puck out to Sundin, who can hold his own anywhere on the ice. Bauer played on one of the greatest two-way lines in hockey, according to GodBlessCanada, and he is considered the smarts of the line so he'll know where to be when Goulet recovers the puck, when this line plays dump and chase of course, which needn't be all the time. This ain't the Chicago Blackhawks.
LEWIS was a relentless checker and believed to be the fastest player in the NHL, a hockey hall of famer for his two-way play, he certainly won't shy away from physical play to get to and recover pucks anywhere on the ice, quickly! He is on a third line with Damphousse and Nolan, basically another 2nd line for the Avs, as the line plays a two-way game. Owen Nolan spent the entire 1990's going through guys at the boards to recover pucks when he wasn't checking guys in open ice or causing turnovers and slapping pucks at nets. He was tough and gritty and a top power forward who could score in the 'dead puck' era. Yes, his play in his second decade, of this century is totally different, but that's due to injuries and age, and hopefully you guys don't count that against him, given how he played for his first 10-11 seasons. This line will score and check, one with speed, one with smarts, one with toughness.
MACLEAN: He may have scored 400+ NHL goals but really he is "gritty" and "a foot soldier" as the LoH site says, really a role model for Devils hockey. he knows and thrived in dump and chase hockey. He was very "opportunistic" and caused plenty of turnovers and breakaways to go with his board and corner work. He plays on a line with Holik and Sullivan, both know how to play physical, gritty hockey and Red especially can get in on the forecheck with MacLean as well as cause plenty of turnovers.
The extra forward is Paiement, a nearly point-per-game 6'1 210 lbs trash talking, gloves dropping skilled winger who could come into games against especially rough and tumble opponents.
So, when you say the Avs doesn't have toughness and grittiness to succeed you reduce that down to one line? You think the Avs cannot score enough goals with its exceptional 2nd, 3rd, 4th lines with forechecking ability and physical strength and grit, and that the defense and goaltending can't close the door?
That first line isn't some wimpy trio. Yeah, Robitaille is not a great skater or skilled at going into corners and the boards, but he had size and took punishment and could establish himself in position against a tough dman to bury pucks when they came his way. But Perreault you quite underrate with your criticism of his pick at 76th overall. It has been said: If Beliveau had played for a new expansion team instead of a dynasty team he would be Perreault. Gilbert had the size, the skill, the ability to play in traffic. He doesn't need to play dump and chase as he can skate extremely well for a big guy, beat many a defender one on one (a praised skill of his, like with Jean), but also pass off perfectly to a streaking Roadrunner or suddenly change direction (as he was known for) and drop back after the dmen anticipate his net rush, and wait to dish off to Lucky Luc coming into the slot. Blueliners have to respect Perreault's ability to go to the net and so he can draw a dman away for an open pass. As for Cournoyer, he can skate circles around many defenders, certainly play a puck possession game with that line, the one non-dump and chase skilled line on the Avs. And Yvon became a hard-working leader who would chase pucks and certainly had the leg strength to absorb physical play.
Does this team fail because one line doesn't throw pucks in from the blueline and run after them? Doesn't the line make up for Robitaille's shortcomings with enough size in the middle to protect the puck and speed on the other wing to break in and get in the open? On the powerplay, Goulet could battle along the boards with Perreault and Cournoyer on the top unit, Robitaille going to the net or getting to an open spot as he's so good at, playing with Sundin and Nolan taking the physical play, the puck just as likely passed to Pilotte, Boucher, Vadnais, Damphousse at the point.
Revised Avs powerplay units:
Michel Goulet-Gil Perreault-Yvan Cournoyer-Pierre Pilote-Butch Boucher
Luc Robitaille-Mats Sundin-Owen Nolan-Carol Vadnais-Vinny Damphousse
- 2nd pairing puckmoving is a bit of a problem. Carlyle has talent, but his peak was really two seasons, and Boivin is definitely on the offensive low-end by ATD 2nd pairing standards. I would suggest moving Vadnais (who I think is highly underrated in this thing) up to the 2nd pairing and Carlyle down to the 3rd.
Really? Have others thought so?
BOIVIN: "Boivin was known for his explosive hits to break up rushes, and he almost always
skated away with the puck" and the HHOFer had
nine 20+ point seasons in the shorter O6 era, certainly enough skill to be on the Bruins top pairing in a highly skilled six-team league. Carlyle has indeed just two exceptional offensive seasons but his 600+ points is enough to show the defender can handle the puck. This duo is not designed to rush the puck. When they get it, they pass it off.
Should Boivin-Vadnais be formed? What do other GMs think? I actually thought Ramage a perfect complement to Vadnais, a big, tough, rangy, mobile, stay at home blueliner when Carol leads or joins the rush.
arrbez said:
I had you ranked 3rd in your division. It's a solid squad top to bottom. No real weaknesses. But outside of goaltending, there's nothing that really excites either, to be honest. It's a team with lots of depth, but somewhat lacking in high-end talent in terms of scoring forwards, shut-down forwards, 2nd pairing defensemen, etc.
Thanks. In terms of 'high end talent' among forwards, my first two picks were goalie (Roy) and defenseman (Pilote), that may have something to do with it. The Avs is certainly not a team where the opponent can key in on and shutdown one line to win. As for shutdown forwards, Herbie Lewis went against the best and was praised for it, and Holik, Damphousse, Sullivan, MacLean sure will make life difficult for opposing forwards, not to mention the Avs defense and goaltending's role in penalty killing and shut down ability. I think the team should be looked at as a whole, as there is more than one way to win, and this team has very good penalty killing units, looked at as a whole. As for the second pairing,... I'm open to suggestions as to who to play in the #4 slot. In terms of minutes, Pilote, Boucher and Boivin will have many, the 4/5/6 guys not so much.
Thanks again for your comments guys. I'm starting to understand. It sure helps take off the sting.
