ATD Chat Thread XV

[ResilientBeast]

The Oilers floundering this season has turned me off hockey. I'm still passively following my Caps but I've watched way more NBA games than hockey games this year

 

[BenchBrawl]

I will try to watch the playoffs a bit, but hockey have been destroyed and have disappointed me so much for 20 years+, it's hard to believe any change is real.

 

[jarek]

Aside from your favourite teams being bad, what is so bad about hockey these days? Surely it's at least way better than what we saw leading up to the mid-2000's lockout with clutching and grabbing all over the place. The game is so fast now, and skill is largely allowed to flourish. It's going to be one of the highest scoring seasons in quite some time I imagine, with probably at least 7-8 players hitting 100 points. I don't even remember the last time that happened.

I know I've heard the argument that the players these days suck compared to before or something like that, but I prefer to think the league as a whole is more talented than it's ever been. Guys dominating scoring sheets over their peers isn't necessarily a sign of a strong league.. it can be quite the opposite in fact.

 

[VanIslander]

Aside from your favourite teams being bad, what is so bad about hockey these days?

Vegas leads the Pacific,
Washington leads the Metropolitan,
Nashville is second in the Central (only three points behind Winnipeg with three games less played to date).

My expansion team and two cup-hopefuls in recent years are all firing on all cylinders. it's been an epic season. I've watched so much hockey, happy as a clam.

As for the other two,...
I knew Vancouver would suck (rookie coach playing youngsters up front, Sedins coasting to free agency/retirement at season's end, lack of defensive defensemen) and am not surprised (kinda feared/expected) Buffalo still struggling (dang GM! Yeah, Scandella has played well, but he and Risto have no help at the backend, with goalie Johnson sucking and we knew he was bad long time ago; poor Eichel is playing well but it'll be another year or two before anything comes of it).

 

[overpass]

Aside from your favourite teams being bad, what is so bad about hockey these days?

Players are so interchangeable and anonymous. Everyone’s coached to do the same thing. There aren’t more than a handful of players per team where I can identify them by their style of play.

On my Ottawa Senators you have Erik Karlsson, Mark Stone, Mike Hoffman, and Bobby Ryan who play with individual style. Maybe Pageau. Everyone else is boring and overcoached.

 

[Voight]

The Oilers floundering this season has turned me off hockey. I'm still passively following my Caps but I've watched way more NBA games than hockey games this year

Its embarrassing they are going to squander the last year of cheap ELC salary McDavid. If they fail to win a cup in the future, everything will point right back here.

 

[Iceman]

Anyone know if you can set a preference to always go straight to the forums when browsing to hfboards without having to pass through that article area?

 

[jarek]

Anyone know if you can set a preference to always go straight to the forums when browsing to hfboards without having to pass through that article area?

Try bookmarking this: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/forums/

 

[Iceman]

Try bookmarking this: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/forums/

Already have that, but I have a habit of just typing hf and press the down arrow key and get to where I want.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yeah, they are really pushing their articles...

 

[BenchBrawl]

Maybe a desktop shortcut?

 

[jarek]

What's happening with Edmonton and Toronto is really making what Chicago was able to do with their studs still on ELCs look very impressive. I don't know what it is. Were those guys just better at the same age as McDavid, Matthews, etc.? Were they better coached? Was it just everything going right at the right time?

Just watching the Leafs makes it pretty clear that this is a team that is still trying to figure out how to win. They don't have that killer instinct at the end to put the game away. It was the same thing last year. Hopefully these are just growing pains.. although it's become clear to me that this is not a team that will be actually contending for a cup any time soon. Might still be 2-3 years away.

 

[TorontoTrades]

What's happening with Edmonton and Toronto is really making what Chicago was able to do with their studs still on ELCs look very impressive. I don't know what it is. Were those guys just better at the same age as McDavid, Matthews, etc.? Were they better coached? Was it just everything going right at the right time?

Just watching the Leafs makes it pretty clear that this is a team that is still trying to figure out how to win. They don't have that killer instinct at the end to put the game away. It was the same thing last year. Hopefully these are just growing pains.. although it's become clear to me that this is not a team that will be actually contending for a cup any time soon. Might still be 2-3 years away.

Kane and Toews were both 21 when they won so Matthews and McDavid still have time.

They had the Norris Trophy winner in Duncan Keith. Who was surrounded by a really strong D-Core: Keith, Seabrook, Campbell, Byfuglien and Hjalmarsson.

They had Four other 20 goal scorers not named Kane or Toews: Sharp, Hossa, Versteeg, Brouwer.

Quality depth with guys like Ladd, Madden, Bolland.

Coach Q is a terrific coach, they got enough from Niemi to get it done and they never really played a power house team. 7th place Nashville, 3rd place Vancouver without much playoff experience, 1st place San Jose in their prime choking years and then 7th in the East Philadelphia in the finals. Beat who's put in front of you but none of those teams at that time screamed cup favourite.

That being said, doesn't matter who you are or how good of a year you've had, no one wins the Stanley cup without some luck. Games are decided by a few moments which rewrite history. Chicago was a perfect storm of talent, depth, coaching and perfect timing and it led to them being the 2010 Champions. Toronto and Edmonton may be using the Chicago blueprint but you can't expect everything to mirror it exactly. Also I know Edmonton is having a terrible season but Toronto is doing just fine even with some growing pains.

Success will come in its own time. Could be this year. Could be next. Could be 4-5+ years. Only time will tell.

 

[jarek]

To be honest I think Duncan Keith is one of the primary reasons for that success, but all that extra depth certainly helped as well. Something the Leafs have struggled with a bit this season.

 

[ImporterExporter]

And now the Hawks are in terrible shape cap wise. Seabrook is an anchor contract. Toews is not worth what he's being paid. But at least they got 3 Cups out of spending aimlessly. I don't see them winning any time soon given the financial constraints.

 

[jarek]

And now the Hawks are in terrible shape cap wise. Seabrook is an anchor contract. Toews is not worth what he's being paid. But at least they got 3 Cups out of spending aimlessly. I don't see them winning any time soon given the financial constraints.

That's just the way business goes. Kane and Toews were walking if they didn't get paid, after spending so many years on bargain deals. Who was going to replace them? There would have been PR repercussions to be paid if this happened as well - those guys are absolute legends in Chicago. Do you think the fan base would be quick to forgive such a move after all the success those guys brought to the team? It would have been seen as an insult to guys who did so much for them. LA is in the same situation with Kopitar, and eventually Doughty.

 

[ImporterExporter]

That's just the way business goes. Kane and Toews were walking if they didn't get paid, after spending so many years on bargain deals. Who was going to replace them? There would have been PR repercussions to be paid if this happened as well - those guys are absolute legends in Chicago. Do you think the fan base would be quick to forgive such a move after all the success those guys brought to the team? It would have been seen as an insult to guys who did so much for them. LA is in the same situation with Kopitar, and eventually Doughty.

I understand the sentimental value both guys bring. But paying a player like Toews more than Sidney Crosby or the best #1D in the league is not good business. The reality is you're hampering your team severely by worrying about PR fallout. Kane, i get paying that much. You aren't letting both walk. Toews is a #2 C in the NHL. Great defensively, yes. Great leader. But he reminds me so much of a Dave Keon type. The simply don't impact the game enough offensively to warrant being paid a top 3-5 salary in the league.

 

[jarek]

I understand the sentimental value both guys bring. But paying a player like Toews more than Sidney Crosby or the best #1D in the league is not good business. The reality is you're hampering your team severely by worrying about PR fallout. Kane, i get paying that much. You aren't letting both walk. Toews is a #2 C in the NHL. Great defensively, yes. Great leader. But he reminds me so much of a Dave Keon type. The simply don't impact the game enough offensively to warrant being paid a top 3-5 salary in the league.

You have to put bums in the seats to pay these guys. Toews is an absolute legend in Chicago. Let him walk or trade him and you may lose a lot more fans than the contract is worth. I get what you're saying, but.. you cannot treat these guys like objects.

Quite honestly, Pittsburgh has been in the same boat for a while now. You've got a large portion of your salary cap tied to 3 players. I don't think the Penguins wanted to let MAF go to Vegas, but he was a cap casualty.

Also, when discussing Crosby's contract, please keep in mind that his contract was signed both when the cap was at a significantly lower number, AND they hadn't yet implemented all those rules to avoid "tack on years" to reduce the cap hit. It is not fair to compare the Kane and Toews contracts to Crosby's because the salary cap landscape was completely different.

Quite honestly, until these contracts ALL officially come off the books, NHL teams will not all be on a level playing field. Chicago and Pittsburgh specifically have competitive advantages over everyone else because of Keith and Crosby. In fact, if you think Crosby's contract looks good, I bet the Hawks are loving paying Keith only 5.5 million per year.

We're heading into an era where young guys are being locked up long term to contracts well above what their credentials suggest they should be making, specifically to avoid situations like Subban's. If instead of giving Subban some bridge years, they locked him up long term right from the start, he would be making at least 2-3 million per year less, and would likely still be a Hab. Teams are going to be forced to take these gambles, and sometimes they're going to lose, but.. that is what the current landscape dictates must be done. Until EVERY team has all their players signed under these conditions, it won't be a level field at all.

 

[ImporterExporter]

You have to put bums in the seats to pay these guys. Toews is an absolute legend in Chicago. Let him walk or trade him and you may lose a lot more fans than the contract is worth. I get what you're saying, but.. you cannot treat these guys like objects.

Quite honestly, Pittsburgh has been in the same boat for a while now. You've got a large portion of your salary cap tied to 3 players. I don't think the Penguins wanted to let MAF go to Vegas, but he was a cap casualty.

Also, when discussing Crosby's contract, please keep in mind that his contract was signed both when the cap was at a significantly lower number, AND they hadn't yet implemented all those rules to avoid "tack on years" to reduce the cap hit. It is not fair to compare the Kane and Toews contracts to Crosby's because the salary cap landscape was completely different.

Quite honestly, until these contracts ALL officially come off the books, NHL teams will not all be on a level playing field. Chicago and Pittsburgh specifically have competitive advantages over everyone else because of Keith and Crosby. In fact, if you think Crosby's contract looks good, I bet the Hawks are loving paying Keith only 5.5 million per year.

We're heading into an era where young guys are being locked up long term to contracts well above what their credentials suggest they should be making, specifically to avoid situations like Subban's. If instead of giving Subban some bridge years, they locked him up long term right from the start, he would be making at least 2-3 million per year less, and would likely still be a Hab. Teams are going to be forced to take these gambles, and sometimes they're going to lose, but.. that is what the current landscape dictates must be done. Until EVERY team has all their players signed under these conditions, it won't be a level field at all.

The Penguins aren't remotely close to Chicago in terms of cap hell. Yes, they spend to the cap each year but they also aren't afraid to jettison beloved players when their run as legitimate star/starter or fit runs out (Fleury comes to mind). MAF, after Sid is probably the most loved Penguins player of the cap era. Even more than Malkin. James Neal didn't fit what Jim Rutherford wanted to do and was sent packing even though he had great chemistry with Malkin and was a 40 goal scorer. We needed a gritty, balls to the wall player who could finish around the crease and we got one in Hornqvist who, btw was a huge presence in both Cup runs. Neal was a major liability in the postseason for the Pens.

Pittsburgh is still contending all these years later with 2 major contracts (which actually will look even cheaper as the cap continues to increase). And it is directly because the ownership and Jim Rutherford aren't afraid to make tough decisions. The only player on the Penguins right now that I'm confident will retire as a Pittsburgher is Crosby (providing he never wants out). Even Malkin could be dealt under the right circumstances, although the chances are very slim today.

 

[jarek]

Tough decisions? It was tough to sign Crosby to that wonderful contract? I don't think so.. Crosby was willing to take a home town discount. Toews and Kane were not. For good reason.. they were grossly underpaid for a long time. Do not diminish the glorious competitive advantage the Penguins have right now. It is one of the biggest reasons they are able to remain competitive.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The Chicago guys deserved their money, unlike so many other NHLers.

 

[jarek]

The Chicago guys deserved their money, unlike so many other NHLers.

Yep. It was definitely a case of paying them for what they did as opposed to what they're doing or going to do, but it certainly was deserved. They had a hell of a run.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Yep. It was definitely a case of paying them for what they did as opposed to what they're doing or going to do, but it certainly was deserved. They had a hell of a run.

I'm fine with this.Yeah, Chicago is in trouble now.But so what? They won 3 Cups.I can't believe my eyes when I see Chicago fans crapping on Jonathan Toews.The guy is doing what he can, and he brought a lot to the table.At least respect him.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I agree that Toews and Kane are more worthy of being paid a premium rate than most but the fact remains that Toews is a 60-65 point C in a league that generally sees the top guys in the 90-100 range. He's a great defensive player but I think overrated compared to somebody like Datsyuk and Bergeron in that area. I can't get behind paying 10M+ per year to a player like that. Just can't. It's not sensible use of financial resources for a franchise that wants to contend for Cups.

And yes the Penguins have let go of some very talented players in the cap era because they were going to be too costly or had been supplanted by equal/younger/cheaper talent. The Blackhawks haven't followed that line of thinking as well. Seabrook making almost 7M per until 39? Horrible. They are absolutely circumventing league cap rules with Marian Hossa. Look at that contract if he wasn't on IR. 5M+ for another 4 years and he's 39 now.

And Sid didn't really give the Pens a discount. Maybe a few hundred K but given the salaries at the time he became one of, if not the highest paid players in the league. It's just the league hadn't put the restriction on # of years you could extend a player for yet.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I agree that Toews and Kane are more worthy of being paid a premium rate than most but the fact remains that Toews is a 60-65 point C in a league that generally sees the top guys in the 90-100 range. He's a great defensive player but I think overrated compared to somebody like Datsyuk and Bergeron in that area. I can't get behind paying 10M+ per year to a player like that. Just can't. It's not sensible use of financial resources for a franchise that wants to contend for Cups.

And yes the Penguins have let go of some very talented players in the cap era because they were going to be too costly or had been supplanted by equal/younger/cheaper talent. The Blackhawks haven't followed that line of thinking as well. Seabrook making almost 7M per until 39? Horrible. They are absolutely circumventing league cap rules with Marian Hossa. Look at that contract if he wasn't on IR. 5M+ for another 4 years and he's 39 now.

And Sid didn't really give the Pens a discount. Maybe a few hundred K but given the salaries at the time he became one of, if not the highest paid players in the league. It's just the league hadn't put the restriction on # of years you could extend a player for yet.

To play devil's advocate, without looking in depth, I have a feeling that if my life was on the line, Toews would be in my Top 5 center I would want for a deep playoff run, even today.

On top of my head, the ones I would definitely take ahead of him are Crosby, Malkin and Tavares (who by the way would be my top choice, more hungry, liked what I saw last time he made it).After that you have guys like Getzlaf, Kopitar, Giroux, Bergeron, McDavid (on his potential alone), and Toews is in that group.