ATD Chat Thread XV

Discussion in 'All Time Draft' started by jarek, Feb 2, 2017.

  1. Voight

    Voight #winning

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    Who also happens to be a top 3 defenseman
     
  2. Iceman

    Iceman Registered User Sponsor

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    That is not many. ;)
     
  3. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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  4. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter Misterio Blanco

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    That is a stupid thread and discussion when you look at the entirety of Lidstroms's career vs a player who is still nowhere near the end of his prime and is a perennial Norris defender. I have said and will continue to say Karlsson's ceiling is Lidstrom when it's all said and done but the problem is projecting the kind of postseason success Lidstrom had onto Karlsson. Lidstrom had the benefit of playing a good chunk of his career on dynastic teams or at least teams who were contending for deep runs in the postseason. I think what was most impressive to me last year about Karlsson was he literally carried a very average Sens team on one leg, while playing elite 200 foot hockey to a game 7 double OT in the conference finals vs the defending champs.

    Lidstrom was a far, far better defensive player than Karlsson at an earlier age and I don't think Karlsson will ever quite reach that level, although his play in his own end last year wasn't terribly far off. I give a lot of credit to Guy Boucher's system for making Karlsson adapt somewhat especially as a regimented defensive player, playing within a specific system.

    Now, I think having watched both A LOT, that Karlsson is a superior talent offensively. His skating, even post Achilles tear is elite. A notch better than Lidstrom. Karlsson's passing and vision are every bit on Lidstrom's level but I do think Lidstrom was overall a more disciplined player with the puck on his stick. He took less risks. Played a more simple offensive game. But, he didn't have to play the style Karlsson has had to do for most of his career. Karlsson is likely going to own the record for # of times a defensemen lead his team in scoring when it's all said and done. There is a much bigger burden on Karlsson's shoulders, at least offensively, than anything Lidstrom had to deal with in Detroit.

    Provided Karlsson can stay relatively healthy for the remainder of his career, I have a hard time seeing him outside the top 10 defensemen all time, say a decade from now. I guess he could fall off at an earlier age but he's already been a Norris winner twice, runner up twice, finally had an elite playoff run, and is still just 27 years old.
     
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  5. Voight

    Voight #winning

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    Smooth move.
     
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  6. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    There was no sneaking.
     
  7. Iceman

    Iceman Registered User Sponsor

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    He played almost 2 minutes and quite frankly, I have a tough time believing those 2 minutes was such a event changer that Sakic wanted him to play if the trade didn't go through... 2 minutes later. Shouldn't have dressed or at least not play.
     
  8. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Matt said he learned about it during the game. Perhaps Joe didn't close the deal until game time. A deal ain't a deal until the GMs say it's a done deal (not sure if a fax is necessary). And I'd be surprised if there wasn't an NHL rule about the immediate need to stop playing upon being traded. (Has a player ever been traded but still went ahead and played the game with their old team? Conversely: Can you recall a player who sat out of a game because he was expected to be traded, but hadn't yet? I don't mean situations where there is anger between management and the player that resulted in the non-dress call.)
     
  9. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter Misterio Blanco

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    Erik Karlsson up to 15 points in his first 10 games this year. He's 1 point behind Pietrangelo and Shattenkirk in 7 fewer games. Guy is just on different planet than the rest of the Dmen when it comes to offensive ability and consistency. I just marvel at how elite EK is and still is undervalued by so many. Brent Burns and Drew Doughty winning Norris trophies over him was an absolute joke.
     
  10. jarek

    jarek Registered User

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    You're measuring by a single metric.
     
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  11. Iceman

    Iceman Registered User Sponsor

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    Same metric as Burns won his norris based on. ;)
     
  12. jarek

    jarek Registered User

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    Burns also generated a ****load of shots as well.

    I won't deny that the Norris these days is more points based than anything else, but Karlsson, while being outstanding offensively, isn't talked about as one of the best defenders in the league.. and he certainly gets enough press to be noted as such if he actually was.
     
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  13. Iceman

    Iceman Registered User Sponsor

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    True, no Norris winner since Lidström have been among the best defensively in the league and there haven't been many before him either so maybe it's never been THAT much about defensive play anyway.
     
  14. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Chara and Doughty.
     
  15. Iceman

    Iceman Registered User Sponsor

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    Disagree on Doughty.

    Chara, sure, but half of his defensive success comes from sheer intimidation and there are clear ways to beat him.
     
  16. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter Misterio Blanco

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    Karlsson last year was elite defensively. I watched around 20 of his games, including one in person and the strides he's made in that area are monumental. If you didn't come away from watching him last year, especially in the postseason with the mindset that his defensive game is now a strength, I don't know what to tell you. He is the closest incarnation of Lidstrom I've seen and I've long said he had the tools to achieve that kind of profile in the NHL if he could continue to develop in his own end, which he clearly has over the last few seasons.

    Is he Mac Edouard Vlasic? No, but then again his offensive dominance and individual requirements for his team are so far and away beyond what somebody like Vlasic provides it's no contest who impacts the game more.

    The challengers around Karlsson have changed regularly over the past 5-6 seasons but he remains a constant force. At first it was strictly offensively and over the past 2 seasons he's rounded into a much more dominant 2 way player. It's a sight to behold. I would hope people go out of their way to watch one of the games greats.

    BTW, 2 more helpers tonight. 17 in 11 now.
     
  17. Voight

    Voight #winning

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    A fax is necessary for it to 100% confirmed.... i.e if the Sens hadn't sent the fax and the Avs/Preds got cold feet... they could back out.

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter Misterio Blanco

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    Posting irrelevant meme's doesn't make you funny or correct.

    What is Brent Burns up to this year? Mr huge contract extension is playing like ass. Doughty has always been overrated. His peaks and valleys are very evident and not what I want out of an elite #1.

    Erik Karlsson is far and away the best and most impactful Dman in the league today. Period. End. Of. Story.
     
  19. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    I have to say I'd have given the last three Norris to Karlsson without much hesitation. And I'm not the least bit obsessed with "hockey card stats", either.
     
  20. jarek

    jarek Registered User

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    From an all-time perspective, he's racked up an insane collection of hardware voting so far. Just 27 years old and he's already got a 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 7th in Norris voting. Maybe he will never have the brilliant all-around game of Lidstrom, but I could easily see him surpassing him from an award voting perspective. In fact, if Karlsson keeps it up, he may just become the 2nd most prolific defenseman of all time from an award voting perspective (I don't think anyone will ever surpass Bourque in this).
     
  21. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter Misterio Blanco

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    The more I watch hockey and the older I get, the notion that people hold national biases for/against players is certainly evident in voting and admiration.

    I'm American so honestly in most cases I have no national pride thing going on for me as a hockey fan. Erik Karlsson suffers to one degree or another by being Swedish. You see it with the Toronto media conglomerate. You see it throughout many media platforms and it funnels down to the fan bases. Just this past year I wrote a long article (which i sent to dozens of pro writers who have a vote on the awards) on the brilliance of Karlsson and the records/numbers he was putting up in an era where scoring is way down from the primes of guys like Bourque/Coffey etc and the immense burden he shoulders for the Sens and not surprisingly out of the handful of responses I got from the writers who have a vote on the Norris, most gave nonsensical and typical reasoning behind Burns winning the Norris this past year, even though over the final 3rd of the season he tailed off considerably from the 1st half....which to me is an instant non starter for "best player at the position". The fact Burns who played with guys like Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski, Vlasic, etc finished ahead of Karlsson in the Hart race is beyond pathetic and tells me all i need to know about most of the voters.

    The entire notion that Karlsson is a liability defensively is about as old and pathetic as Crosby whines a bunch. Nobody ever disputed the offensive brilliance but having seen the man play live now twice in the past 2 years and many other times on TV, including the past postseason where he was Conn Smythe worthy through 3 rounds, the defensive strides he's made make him a true 200 foot force. And finally its the consistent domination that gets me. When he's healthy he dominates far more often than he doesn't and has done it year in and year out since 2014, when he was just 24.
     
  22. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

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    Hello ATD! Welcome on the History of Hockey board.
     
  23. ResilientBeast

    ResilientBeast ATD Draft Czar

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    It appears to have been moved back
     
  24. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

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    Indeed. Apparently it's being worked on.
     

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