ATD Chat Thread IX

[seventieslord]

Except that it only looks legitimate because it's not out of place with the last decade of Hart votings.

Is the Hart Trophy "The best player in the league" trophy or is it "the most valuable"? Either way, a 97 pts Art Ross winner Sidney Crosby this year wouldn't beat a Price that sustained his current level in neither definition in my opinion.

The lack of respect other positions get is concerning, though in general forwards that won the Hart deserved it recently.

One exemple of "lack of respect" is Doughty not winning the smythe last year.I'm sorry but he was a monster of stability and the main force behind this cup, but maybe that's just me.Just look at the ice time between Doughty and the next kings defensemen in the playoffs.

I agree 100% that Doughty should have won it. that was a joke.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Doughty is an amazing player.

Really don't like the trade for Nashville's perspective. Franson and Santorelli just aren't meaningful players, and they shot their load getting them. Depth up front hasn't been an issue for the team and defensemen who suck at defense aren't the depth you need.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Doughty is an amazing player.

Really don't like the trade for Nashville's perspective. Franson and Santorelli just aren't meaningful players, and they shot their load getting them. Depth up front hasn't been an issue for the team and defensemen who suck at defense aren't the depth you need.

I really hate it, I think they paid more for Franson than which they sold him for.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I agree 100% that Doughty should have won it. that was a joke.

Honestly I suspect Doughty is being sell short in the regular season as well, even compared to other defensemen.

He is clearly the #1 defenseman in the league, but true that he might not outshine the competition in the regular season.I suspect Doughty could put up much more points in the regular season if that was his ultimate goal.Last year he got 37 pts, but he's clearly a 50 pts level offensive defenseman, and he only reached that one time.The team he plays for, his willingness to sacrifice his stats for better defense and team concept and the fact he amassed 16 and 18 pts in his two cup runs while playing stellar defense indicates that Doughty is managing himself very well, but sacrificing his Norris voting record in the process.

I've seen enough of Doughty in important games to know this is not an accident or random good timing.

In all honesty there isn't a single player in the league I would currently take on my team ahead of Doughty considering all factors.Maybe Carey Price, because often goalies can have a good year and then not, but Carey Price's reputation goes way back and he is entering his prime.He's less likely to quit being one of the top 3 goalie than others.

Like do you trade Price for Crosby? Honestly, if the only goal is to win games in the next 6 years, I wouldn't.Crosby is much more a spent force than Price is in my opinion.If you ask me at the beginning of their career sure Crosby all the way, but right now I don't think so.

Another player I have very high in value is Tavares.

 

[jarek]

I really hate it, I think they paid more for Franson than which they sold him for.

Funny, I actually thought the Leafs could get more for that particular package. The only part of that deal that looks to have any meaningful value is the 1st round pick.

 

[jarek]

Honestly I suspect Doughty is being sell short in the regular season as well, even compared to other defensemen.

He is clearly the #1 defenseman in the league, but true that he might not outshine the competition in the regular season.I suspect Doughty could put up much more points in the regular season if that was his ultimate goal.Last year he got 37 pts, but he's clearly a 50 pts level offensive defenseman, and he only reached that one time.The team he plays for, his willingness to sacrifice his stats for better defense and team concept and the fact he amassed 16 and 18 pts in his two cup runs while playing stellar defense indicates that Doughty is managing himself very well, but sacrificing his Norris voting record in the process.

Couldn't you say the same thing about Keith? He goes about his business in much the same fashion as Doughty. He's not spectacular in terms of being flashy or anything, just goes about his business in a very effective and efficient manner.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Couldn't you say the same thing about Keith? He goes about his business in much the same fashion as Doughty. He's not spectacular in terms of being flashy or anything, just goes about his business in a very effective and efficient manner.

Well Keith has 2 Norrises.

But yes Keith is Doughty's real competition for #1 defenseman in the league, not Weber for now.We shall see what Nashville does.

What a #1 defenseman does in the playoffs, proving he's capable of going deep while being the pillar from the back end, is incredibly important in my eyes.

 

[jarek]

Well Keith has 2 Norrises.

But yes Keith is Doughty's real competition for #1 defenseman in the league, not Weber for now.We shall see what Nashville does.

What a #1 defenseman does in the playoffs, proving he's capable of going deep while being the pillar from the back end, is incredibly important in my eyes.

Doughty and Keith are more or less equal in that regard, no? But Keith has been much better in the regular season.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Weber is having his best year IMO and a deep playoff run could go a long way in putting him legitimately into the same conversation as Keith or Doughty in terms of being a big game player. His regular season resume is better than Doughty and not terribly far behind Keith (Weber was robbed of 1 Norris for sure).

All comes down to the postseason now.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Doughty and Keith are more or less equal in that regard, no? But Keith has been much better in the regular season.

Yeah they are.But Keith is 31 years old.Doughty have a lot of time ahead of him.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Weber is having his best year IMO and a deep playoff run could go a long way in putting him legitimately into the same conversation as Keith or Doughty in terms of being a big game player. His regular season resume is better than Doughty and not terribly far behind Keith (Weber was robbed of 1 Norris for sure).

All comes down to the postseason now.

One run wouldn't put him equal as those in the post-season, but it would be much more comparable at least.

Weber is a good defenseman but we shall see what happens when everything is on the line and he has a real shot at winning.

 

[ImporterExporter]

One run wouldn't put him equal as those in the post-season, but it would be much more comparable at least.

Weber is a good defenseman but we shall see what happens when everything is on the line and he has a real shot at winning.

I think a SC and Conn Smythe would certainly do that, but one step at a time. Weber is one of those guys who people either over hype or over analyze (negatively).

If Pittsburgh falters (very likely, im not expecting much) in the postseason, i'll probably pull for Nashville.

 

[jarek]

Yeah they are.But Keith is 31 years old.Doughty have a lot of time ahead of him.

Doughty may yet become a better defenseman all-time than Keith. Real shame he doesn't have a Norris yet.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Funny, I actually thought the Leafs could get more for that particular package. The only part of that deal that looks to have any meaningful value is the 1st round pick.

A 1st in a draft this deep would normally be used to net a big ticket rental. For two replacement level rentals, it's a pretty huge get.

 

[jarek]

A 1st in a draft this deep would normally be used to net a big ticket rental. For two replacement level rentals, it's a pretty huge get.

I don't know if I'd call Franson replacement level. I think his defensive deficiencies are overblown and exposed because of the team he's on. He brings a good offensive game and I think on Nashville, especially with Rinne behind him, his defense will look a lot better.

I do agree with Santorelli being replacement level though.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Doughty may yet become a better defenseman all-time than Keith. Real shame he doesn't have a Norris yet.

Has there been a season where Doughty has legitimately deserved a Norris yet?

 

[jarek]

Has there been a season where Doughty has legitimately deserved a Norris yet?

Don't know. Probably not. I think there's a lot of merit to the idea that he sacrifices recognition to help the team win.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I don't know if I'd call Franson replacement level. I think his defensive deficiencies are overblown and exposed because of the team he's on. He brings a good offensive game and I think on Nashville, especially with Rinne behind him, his defense will look a lot better.

I do agree with Santorelli being replacement level though.

He's a decent offensive defenseman, but he's pretty average. He might not even get 1st unit PP time. Probably less than 20 minutes a game. That's replacement level.

 

[jarek]

He's a decent offensive defenseman, but he's pretty average. He might not even get 1st unit PP time. Probably less than 20 minutes a game. That's replacement level.

If he plays 1st PP and 20 minutes a game, which replacement level player is going to replicate that at the quality that Franson would play those minutes?

 

[Sturminator]

Technically, the term "replacement level" refers to production that could literally be replaced by a minor league call-up. It is not a synonym for NHL-average play, or "maybe not quite good enough for 1st unit powerplay time".

 

[ImporterExporter]

Don't know. Probably not. I think there's a lot of merit to the idea that he sacrifices recognition to help the team win.

I would agree with that. I don't see near as much of Doughty being on the opposite coast but he certainly seems to fluctuate during the regular season when breaking down the numbers. Postseason he has almost always raised his level of play from what i've seen.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Technically, the term "replacement level" refers to production that could literally be replaced by a minor league call-up. It is not a synonym for NHL-average play, or "maybe not quite good enough for 1st unit powerplay time".

Fair enough. He's better than that. So I should say, League average defenseman.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

If he plays 1st PP and 20 minutes a game, which replacement level player is going to replicate that at the quality that Franson would play those minutes?

Doesn't matter, because then you aren't a good team.

 

[jarek]

Doesn't matter, because then you aren't a good team.

Are you saying a team with Franson playing top-4 minutes isn't a good team?

I think Franson is a high-end #3. He certainly has his limitations, no doubt about that, but he's big, he's physical, has a great shot and is otherwise strong offensively. He can easily play 1st unit PP minutes on just about any team. Put him with a good stay-at-home partner and the guy could easily prove a huge asset.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Are you saying a team with Franson playing top-4 minutes isn't a good team?

I think Franson is a high-end #3. He certainly has his limitations, no doubt about that, but he's big, he's physical, has a great shot and is otherwise strong offensively. He can easily play 1st unit PP minutes on just about any team. Put him with a good stay-at-home partner and the guy could easily prove a huge asset.

He's an average #4, better suited to being a 3rd pairing PP specialist. Using him in big minutes is a sign of a weak team.