ATD Chat Thread IX
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Two 1st team all-star selections and two top-5 goals seasons? Um, yeah. That is slightly better than a Norris trophy win of votes by the largest number (not even a majority) of members of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association for any one given season.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
being named the best defenseman > being named the 3rd-5th best forward.
edit: 3rd/5th is generous. he was 5th in forward hart voting in 2006, and didn't get any/many votes in 2007, at least a dozen forwards did better by that metric
edit: 3rd/5th is generous. he was 5th in forward hart voting in 2006, and didn't get any/many votes in 2007, at least a dozen forwards did better by that metric
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
also, think about it... had anyone been top-5 in goals two seasons in a row in the 15 years prior? yes, obviously. had any defenseman finished top-10 in points in the 15 years prior? no. what Karlsson did was much more rare and impressive.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
And you KNOW I am not just a guy who says "oooh, points, points are good!" when it comes to defensemen. He checked a lot of boxes. He had the ice time too (not sheltered), anchored a pretty good team, led the defense corps on it by a wide margin, was a dominant possession player, and was by far the best producer at both ES and on the PP (i.e. it was not a Subban smoke and mirrors win)
Hobnobs
Pinko
- Nov 29, 2011
- 8,912
- 2,271
To Ovies favour tho. His team were so bad that those stats were really impressive. He basically had no help what so ever.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
karlsson's Norris season was better than either of ovechkins first two seasons, but ovechkin's first two seasons combined were better than any 2 seasons of Karlsson's career
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
jkrx
Registered User
- Feb 4, 2010
- 4,337
- 21
If you count this season for Karlsson you should factor in that at 23 Ovechkin had already won 2 harts, 2 richards, 2 Pearsons and a Ross.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
By the way, it was asked how/why Karlsson gets a free pass on his -17 when Ovechkin gets grilled for his -31.
- he doesn't, -17 is still bad
- -17 is a lot better than -31; one is 2nd worst in the NHL, the other not in the bottom 30
- a defenseman is more likely to experience swingsin +/- due to playing more (Karlsson plays 32% more than Ovy)
- Ottawa has a goal differential of -38 so Karlsson is almost exactly where you'd expect a guy playing half the game to be
- Washington has a goal differential of -6
- he doesn't, -17 is still bad
- -17 is a lot better than -31; one is 2nd worst in the NHL, the other not in the bottom 30
- a defenseman is more likely to experience swingsin +/- due to playing more (Karlsson plays 32% more than Ovy)
- Ottawa has a goal differential of -38 so Karlsson is almost exactly where you'd expect a guy playing half the game to be
- Washington has a goal differential of -6
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
I pointed out some of that above. It's pointless with some people SL. Ovechkin is the sexy obbession based on stuff he was doing 3/4 years ago. It's why he won a Hart last year. The name on the back of the jersey is almost always either loved (Ovechkin) or hated (Crosby), by not only fans, but writers (who decide awards).
If you weren't giving the Hart to Crosby who missed a month and was still far and away the best player in hockey per game, or Tavares who took a crappy Islanders team to the playoffs, the Hart, it should have been a voided year.
If you weren't giving the Hart to Crosby who missed a month and was still far and away the best player in hockey per game, or Tavares who took a crappy Islanders team to the playoffs, the Hart, it should have been a voided year.
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
If you're relating it to +/- you would need to look only at ES goal differential, and maybe include + SH GF and - PP GA, although I don't know how fair that is...Ovechkin doesn't even play on the PK
Went to look it up for you, and I noticed the GA stats on NHL.com don't match their standings...In the Standings NHL.com has WSH with 218 GA, but their breakdown on the Team Stats page only shows a total of 209 GA. Upon further review, WSH has lost 9 shootouts this year, so apparently NHL.com is including the "goal" you get for winning a shootout in their goal differential shown on the Standings page...how stupid is that?
Anyway, here are the real numbers...
ES only (EN's not included)
WSH: -18
OTT: -17
ES only (EN's included)
WSH: -19
OTT: -18
PP GA
WSH: 8
OTT: 8
SH GF
WSH: 5
OTT: 4
Karlsson still looks better, although the discrepancy isn't as big as before.
EDIT: Really shows how much WSH relies on the PP (not that that's news to anyone).
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Repeat: "No goalie in the nineties had a better season than his fifth best." He dominated. Period. Those of us who remember, cherish the memories: behind a below average blueline that pinched and an aggressive two-man forecheck that gave up a ton of rushes against, Dom THRIVED! I shook my head countless times before I became begrudgedly a fan. He was simply other worldly. He was equivalent to the hottest playoff series goalies I can recall, times ten, throughout huge stretches of seasons. Goalies like Quick, Rask and Crawford have no idea how good they have it, how pampered they are by squads that make them look good rather than the other way around.
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BraveCanadian
Registered User
- Jun 30, 2010
- 14,763
- 3,691
To me he is like the Gretzky of goalies.
You can't even understand what he is doing half the time until you watch the replay.
Just like Gretzky would go against the grain and suddenly find a guy in the clear or make a defenseman commit. Hasek would look down and out and swimming in his crease and then stop the puck.
Individually, Hasek was more dominating than any goalie I have seen. He got in the head of players. I only have Roy ahead of him due to Roy's playoff performances. Mind you Roy also had more opportunities to shine there in his prime years as well.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
You would also want to remove empty net goals; according to Capitals fans (meaning I haven't verified it or anything), Ovechkin is on the ice for a lot of empty net goals against, which count against plus/minus, and can hardly be blamed on him.
Hawkey Town 18
Registered User
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
You even have it bolded, heh. Good job.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
OV now to -32. 1 off of Yakupov lol.
Where does Yak rank in terms of all time busts at this point? I mean it's only his 2nd season, but my God is he putrid.
Where does Yak rank in terms of all time busts at this point? I mean it's only his 2nd season, but my God is he putrid.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Way too early. Historically, many top picks would still be in the minors at Yak's age.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
That is true. I honestly believe unless he gets out of Edmonton he'll be a bust. He definitely seems to have a serious motivational problem though. You could probably get him fairly cheap after the season.
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