ATD 2022 Rules Discussion

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
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2,153
Let's keep the other thread to sign-ups, recruitment, and the eventual draft order.

This thread is for everyone to discuss what rules should be implemented this year. Off the top of my head, I think we usually discuss:

1) Trading - yes/no
- If yes, how many?

2) Multiple teams- yes/no

3) Playoff structure

4) Public Voting- yes/no
- If yes- votes shown after every round, after the final, something else?

Anything that I'm missing? Once I get some feedback on what options people think should be in the polls, I'll start those up for voting.

EDIT: I almost forgot- @The Macho King - do you have a list of people who voted every round last year? I thought the way we handled the draft order/voting rewards last year worked out nicely.
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
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Orillia, Ontario
Let's keep the other thread to sign-ups, recruitment, and the eventual draft order.

This thread is for everyone to discuss what rules should be implemented this year. Off the top of my head, I think we usually discuss:

1) Trading - yes/no
- If yes, how many?

2) Multiple teams- yes/no

3) Playoff structure

4) Public Voting- yes/no
- If yes- votes shown after every round, after the final, something else?

Anything that I'm missing? Once I get some feedback on what options people think should be in the polls, I'll start those up for voting.

EDIT: I almost forgot- @The Macho King - do you have a list of people who voted every round last year? I thought the way we handled the draft order/voting rewards last year worked out nicely.

1. No strong preference, but if we have trades, there should be a mechanism to protect newer GMs.

2. No strong preference, though I would like a substantial difference in number of teams from last year.

3. More teams the the better.

4. Open voting for sure. Probably best to publish after the draft. Don’t want revenge voting during the draft, but we really need to end the perception of favouritism in the voting.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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3 & 4 as above ^^^

1. No trades or unlimited trades. Skip the drama of the inbetween.

2. A second team option would be okay if in the other conference.
 

Claude The Fraud

Registered User
Apr 2, 2008
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1) Yes, unlimited trades. Picks and players.

2) No preferences.

3) The more team, the better.

4) Yes, public voting.
 
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rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,672
2,153
1. No strong preference, but if we have trades, there should be a mechanism to protect newer GMs.

Agreed. But how? People are hesitant to actually vote down trades, whether it is due to not wanting to hurt feelings (and thus, possible votes) or due to being anxious to keep the draft moving.

Dreakmur said:
2. No strong preference, though I would like a substantial difference in number of teams from last year.

Based on the rather low rate of participation so far, we may get a small ATD.

Dreakmur said:
3. More teams the the better.
Same

Dreakmur said:
4. Open voting for sure. Probably best to publish after the draft. Don’t want revenge voting during the draft, but we really need to end the perception of favouritism in the voting.

Agreed

1. No trades or unlimited trades. Skip the drama of the inbetween.

What drama? We have another vote. That hardly counts as drama.
 

Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
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Orillia, Ontario
Agreed. But how? People are hesitant to actually vote down trades, whether it is due to not wanting to hurt feelings (and thus, possible votes) or due to being anxious to keep the draft moving.

I’m not concerned with people winning or losing trades on general. The issues occur when a new GM doesn’t understand the implications and ends up destroying their own team while giving another GM an insurmountable advantage.

Odds are we won’t have to veto a trade, but a rule should be in place just in case.
 

Professor What

Registered User
Sep 16, 2020
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1. I prefer having trades, and as I used it more than I expected, I'd like to see a decent number.

2. I'm not interested in multiple teams, but I don't want to shoot it down for everyone else.

3. Ditto on the more the better.

4. I'm not opposed to releasing vote results, but I think it would be better to release it after everything is finished. I trust the folks here, but I also know human nature and feel it's best to eliminate the heat of the moment temptation, if that makes sense.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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1. I prefer having trades, and as I used it more than I expected, I'd like to see a decent number.

2. I'm not interested in multiple teams, but I don't want to shoot it down for everyone else.

3. Ditto on the more the better.

4. I'm not opposed to releasing vote results, but I think it would be better to release it after everything is finished. I trust the folks here, but I also know human nature and feel it's best to eliminate the heat of the moment temptation, if that makes sense.

Multiple teams was used to push the draft up to a different number of teams, currently we have the fewest entries in a long time. Which definitely will mix up team building a bit. Hopefully we get more people to trickle in.

Is there any support for @Hockey Outsider 's previous proposal of adding some randomness into the equation, maybe introducing more excitement into the playoffs/RS?
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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Multiple teams was used to push the draft up to a different number of teams, currently we have the fewest entries in a long time. Which definitely will mix up team building a bit. Hopefully we get more people to trickle in.

Is there any support for @Hockey Outsider 's previous proposal of adding some randomness into the equation, maybe introducing more excitement into the playoffs/RS?

I won't have time to participate in the draft (I'm going into by far my busiest time at work over the next few months) but here's the post I made:

One of my frustrations was that there were so few upsets. This happens because in the ATD, we vote based on what we think is the most likely outcome. For example, if everyone would have voted on the 2003 Anaheim Ducks versus the Detroit Red Wings, I suspect everyone would have voted for Detroit. The prospect of such a weak team beating, let alone sweeping, a division winner, seems preposterous. But upsets - sometimes shocking ones - can and do happen.

(In the ATD, there can be upsets in the sense that a lower-ranked team might be well-matched against a higher-seeded team. The lower-ranked team might have stronger, larger defensemen who would match favourably against the higher-ranked team`s smaller, less physical forwards. If the lower-ranked team were to win, that`s not really a "statistical" upset due to chance, it just reflects an unfavourable match-up).

Before continuing, let me be perfectly clear - since I generally had strong teams, I was a beneficiary of the rules we`ve always used. This proposal isn't based on "sour grapes". On the contrary, my suggestions would have made me (and my teams) much worse off.

The question is - how do we introduce randomness into the ATD? I'll skip over the question about how to do regular season rankings. Let's take a given playoff match-up. We'd need to calculate the probability of a team winning a series. This would be determined by the GMs' votes.

Let's say Team A and Team B face off in the playoffs. During the voting stage, 11 GMs think Team A is better, and 7 GMs think Team B is better. Normally, Team A would advance, because there`s no randomness.

Instead, I propose we assign a probability of 11/18 = 61% that Team A will win each game. A moderator, or another impartial party, can then simulate the result of each game (in a seven-game series).

Using basic probability theory, here's the distribution of outcomes:

Team A wins in 4: 14%
Team A wins in 5: 22%
Team A wins in 6: 21%
Team A wins in 7: 16%
Team B wins in 7: 10%
Team B wins in 6: 9%
Team B wins in 5: 6%
Team B wins in 4: 2%

It's still likely that Team A will win. In this case, they have a 73% chance of victory. (The reason it's higher than the 61% we calculated earlier is because we've assumed 61% is for a single game - the more that are played, the more likely the favourite will win the series). But Team B now has a 27% chance of advancing - under the current system, they would have had no chance.

The biggest benefits? This will, probably for the first time, introduce upsets (due to chance, rather than due to match-ups) into the draft. That makes it better reflect reality than our current "single most likely outcome" format. It should also make weaker GMs more engaged, as they now have a chance to beat tougher opponents. A lot of times GMs would post very little (or nothing at all) when they had a tough match-up because they assumed the result was a foregone conclusion.

I can see a lot of GMs objecting. Nobody wants to be eliminated due to the vagaries of probability theory - but I don`t see that as any different than a President Trophy winner being eliminated in the first round due to a few bad bounces or lucky saves.

I can definitely see the GM of a stronger team being upset if they lose a series due to luck - but is that really any different than a division winner being upset in the first round of the NHL playoffs? It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. (How many of you were shocked, or even angry, by Switzerland shutting out Canada in the 2006 Olympics?) This proposal would make the ATD more realistic, and the perception that there's a "foregone conclusion" would vanish. At the same time, since the results are based upon the GMs' votes, the favourite would still have a higher chance of winning. I contrast that with, say, a coin toss, which is clearly undesirable as it would be entirely based upon on luck, with no need for GMs to assemble strong teams. I think my proposal is a good balance between the two.

(Two technical notes. One, we can probably modify the probabilities to give the home team a boost. We can arbitrarily give the home team a 5-10% boost in each simulation - that would give teams further incentive to assemble a strong team, to get home ice advantage. Two, we can cap the probability at say 80% (even if the voting is unanimous) to mean that every underdog has a shot. Before you say that I`m being too lenient, a team favoured to win 80% of the time would win 97% of all best-of-seven series).
 

ImporterExporter

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Expanding the voting bloc to agreed upon (and willing) HoH members is something I've brought up before and would need to see in order to really invest any serious time in this again. Otherwise, I think I'd just draft, set a line up and let the chips fall where they may. We need more people voting and people who don't have skin in the game to help offset inherent biases and constant squabbling that occurs every year. We all know who the reputable people are in the parent forum, some of which I don't think would mind looking at a handful of match ups and casting a vote. This especially true if you only have 10-14 GM's as you know not everyone is gong to vote every round which severely limits the entire point/value of the post draft portion. You send out some PM's to a group of HoH members (say people who have participated in multiple HoH projects/mods/etc) and hopefully gain a much larger voting pool.

Unlimited trading WITH a 3 GM pass/fail bar for said trades. Or none. Just make it one or the other.

Yes to public voting. Should have been done for years.

Don't want to see another 2 teams per GM draft again. If anything having a 12-14 team draft would at least be interesting as we've never seen anything that small, a change which will impact strategy in a different ways. We've run the 20-30ish size drafts so many times. If we end up with that many fine, but I wouldn't mind seeing one draft with fewer overall GM's.
 

Habsfan18

The Hockey Library
May 13, 2003
30,681
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And that’s the issue I brought up last year, although things did get a bit heated and more personal than I intended it to.

It’s the predictability of it all. The first few rounds of the playoffs are absolutely pointless. Nobody, and I mean nobody, who just voted a team into 1st place DAYS earlier, is then going to flip the switch and have the same team they essentially voted in last place in their division, beat the top ranked team in a playoff matchup. It’s not going to happen. So really, what’s the incentive for a poster who spent months working hard building a team, only to have everyone vote them 5th place in their division? That team then gets matched up against a high ranked club. What’s the incentive for that GM to fight for their team? The voting just took place, and it’s clear what the other GM’s think of the team. That’s fair of course, because that’s why we vote. If posters think that team isn’t good, they have the right to vote them as last place clubs. But then why would the GM want to continue when they know there is zero chance of advancing?

That’s why we see such low participation in the playoffs. It’s completely predictable as soon as the regular season ends.

If it were up to me - and it’s not - we’d either completely revamp the voting system, as in bring in a panel who creates their own bracket in private and then posts the results for us all to see.

OR

Have only a 4 or 8 (in a 20-30 team ATD) team playoff. Because honestly, those are the only teams that have a chance in hell in winning. Particularly those top 4 clubs.

Edit: And for the record, I have no interest in participating. I’m just giving my thoughts on why the interest may be low. It’s stale.
 
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ImporterExporter

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And that’s the issue I brought up last year, although things did get a bit heated and more personal than I intended it to.

It’s the predictability of it all. The first few rounds of the playoffs are absolutely pointless. Nobody, and I mean nobody, who just voted a team into 1st place DAYS earlier, is then going to flip the switch and have the same team they essentially voted in last place in their division, beat the top ranked team in a playoff matchup. It’s not going to happen. So really, what’s the incentive for a poster who spent months working hard building a team, only to have everyone vote them 5th place in their division? That team then gets matched up against a high ranked club. What’s the incentive for that GM to fight for their team? The voting just took place, and it’s clear what the other GM’s think of the team. That’s fair of course, because that’s why we vote. If posters think that team isn’t good, they have the right to vote them as last place clubs. But then why would the GM want to continue when they know there is zero chance of advancing?

That’s why we see such low participation in the playoffs. It’s completely predictable as soon as the regular season ends.

If it were up to me - and it’s not - we’d either completely revamp the voting system, as in bring in a panel who creates their own bracket in private and then posts the results for us all to see.

OR

Have only a 4 or 8 team playoff. Because honestly, those are the only teams that have a chance in hell in winning. Particularly those top 4 clubs.

Edit: And for the record, I have no interest in participating. I’m just giving my thoughts on why the interest may be low. It’s stale.

I'd love to see a panel decide the match ups. I'd settle for adding HoH members to the overall bloc but ultimately if you had 10 or more reputable HoH folks who would be willing to vote, it would certainly eliminate a lot of the predictability you bring up, which is absolutely valid. It also eliminates biases or discord between GM's and many of us (including myself) have been guilty of that at one point or another. People like tarheelhockey, Batis, HO, etc, know history well enough to look at our rosters, while not having to actually follow the draft itself, and come to a respected conclusion on "who's the best". IMHO.

The drama and wash, rinse, redo, routine of the post draft process is largely why people have left. Of that, I have little doubt. Obviously other factors (people aging, changing jobs, kids, etc, etc) come into play.

But the reality is we've been doing this a long time and for the most part, nothing changes. Call us Blockbuster haha.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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Jun 29, 2009
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Trading: this thread is fine for discussion, but ultimately there should just be a quick poll: Trades or No Trades, once the signup period is over or close to over.
Then if Trades wins a subsequent poll with some options for the Trading Rules (i.e. limits, etc.).
Someone mentioned trading only before the draft, we did this once and it was a mess. Tons of trades all coming in at once, not enough people to review them, resulting in some errors being made.

Multiple Teams: Depends on how many people sign up, most important is a difference in the number of teams from the past couple years.

Playoff Structure: The more the better.

Public Voting: Yes, but only if results are released after the Final

Randomness in Voting: Appreciate the idea, but not a fan...one it would be a lot of work for whoever is tabulating the votes, and two I like the idea of the winner being the team that the participants actually think is best.

I agree with @ImporterExporter's suggestion to allow reputable/knowledgeable HOH members to vote, as long as they're committed to reading through the entire series threads
 

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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No interest in any random results. Our understanding of these players has changed over the years, and the draft order has evolved along with that. A huge part of that is the playoff format where the better team wins. Better players get drafted earlier next year. How do we know who’s better if the result is random?

The expanded voting pool, I can get behind. I still don’t know why somebody would invest much time as a neutral voter, but if they will commit to doing at least some minor amount of due diligence, that’s fine.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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... a quick poll: Trades or No Trades, once the signup period is over or close to over.
Agreed.
Hawkey Town 18 said:
Multiple Teams: Depends on how many people sign up, most important is a difference in the number of teams from the past couple years.
That's why I support YES to get to 16 and NO at 20.
Hawkey Town 18 said:
Playoff Structure: The more the better.

Public Voting: Yes, but only if results are released after the Final.
Word. This ain't an issue.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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I have been doing the ATD on HfBoards for over a quarter century and I swear I'll draft 20 of 24 picks I have never drafted before if there are 20 GMs and at least a trio of trades allowed.

I'll partcipate unemcumbered otherwise.
 

ImporterExporter

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No interest in any random results. Our understanding of these players has changed over the years, and the draft order has evolved along with that. A huge part of that is the playoff format where the better team wins. Better players get drafted earlier next year. How do we know who’s better if the result is random?

The expanded voting pool, I can get behind. I still don’t know why somebody would invest much time as a neutral voter, but if they will commit to doing at least some minor amount of due diligence, that’s fine.

Agree with you here. Theoretically I can understand a very small random element involved as a way to change up the re-run process we have now but it is hard to shape it in a way that is going to satisfy the majority and obviously if you do build a squad your peers deem as #1, it would be tougher to swallow losing on a mathematical formula.

I think the expanded voting pool is the paramount change that needs to happen. Right or wrong, paranoia or not, we've lost genuinely good drafters because they (even me to a certain extent) feel the post draft process basically boils down a handful of people being in the same spot every year. Now, I've been doing this long enough and lurked long enough before even participating 7 years ago to know that folks like yourself, HT, TDMM, etc, are flat out damn good GM's who know how to manufacture a quality roster. And in the last few years I've made deep runs including a trip to the finals. I personally don't think there is some blatant coalition of people swaying votes but adding reputable people who don't own a team, does offer a bloc who don't have skin in the game or any real reason to not select the absolute best team in any given matchup.

As you said, as long as they're willing to read the main points of the write ups and are vetted/qualified/willing, it's an addition that I think would greatly help shine some light on folks who've left and say, OK, we've legitimately made an effort to help improve the most debated and drama filled part of the entire process.
 

Dreakmur

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Mar 25, 2008
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I think the expanded voting pool is the paramount change that needs to happen. Right or wrong, paranoia or not, we've lost genuinely good drafters because they (even me to a certain extent) feel the post draft process basically boils down a handful of people being in the same spot every year. Now, I've been doing this long enough and lurked long enough before even participating 7 years ago to know that folks like yourself, HT, TDMM, etc, are flat out damn good GM's who know how to manufacture a quality roster. And in the last few years I've made deep runs including a trip to the finals. I personally don't think there is some blatant coalition of people swaying votes but adding reputable people who don't own a team, does offer a bloc who don't have skin in the game or any real reason to not select the absolute best team in any given matchup.

As you said, as long as they're willing to read the main points of the write ups and are vetted/qualified/willing, it's an addition that I think would greatly help shine some light on folks who've left and say, OK, we've legitimately made an effort to help improve the most debated and drama filled part of the entire process.

An expanded voting pool would be good for the simple fact that more opinions is better. The reason that we want multiple votes is because not one person has the correct view, and we want to average out all the slightly flawed opinions to create a correct result. More opinions reduces the impact of outliers, so that's obviously a good thing.

These outside voters, however, won't really be neutral. While they won't have teams in the game, they will have relationships with the current GMs. The issue has never been that GMs vote a particular way so that their own team will win, but that GMs have voted for their friends and against their enemies. That doesn't change with this expanded pool.

As I said, I'm in favour of an expanded pool of voters, but I don't think it' solves the problem we're focused on.
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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... Right or wrong, paranoia or not, we've lost genuinely good drafters because they (even me to a certain extent) feel the post draft process basically boils down a handful of people being in the same spot every year.
The heart of the matter.

People think the playoffs are the be all and end all when it should be icing on the cake; and, cliques continually pimp friends, and certainly, newbies have commented on it.
 
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ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
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An expanded voting pool would be good for the simple fact that more opinions is better. The reason that we want multiple votes is because not one person has the correct view, and we want to average out all the slightly flawed opinions to create a correct result. More opinions reduces the impact of outliers, so that's obviously a good thing.

These outside voters, however, won't really be neutral. While they won't have teams in the game, they will have relationships with the current GMs. The issue has never been that GMs vote a particular way so that their own team will win, but that GMs have voted for their friends and against their enemies. That doesn't change with this expanded pool.

As I said, I'm in favour of an expanded pool of voters, but I don't think it' solves the problem we're focused on.

To an extent yes, but a neutral voter who doesn't own a team or have any stake in the game isn't as likely to say "well, if i vote this team down/up, i have an easier path through the beginning/middle/end of the gauntlet." Or, "well this guy said some mean shit to me, so f*** him."

Sure, most of us have posted plenty on the HoH forum, we've voted/participated in in projects there, and have indirect relationships with some of the possible voters, but most of the guys over there have never been a part of the draft. The raw emotion of running a team, doing research, making cases, is simply not going to be as big a factor for someone like MXD or tarheelhockey. If their job is to simply read a matchup's arguments, look at the roster construction, and then vote, I'd say their vote is going to be purer, than someone who's actually a GM.

And I firmly believe the relative same people who end up going deep in the ATD playoffs, do so, because they generally build top shelf rosters, not because of collusion. But we certainly agree, that more reputable voters, especially those who are "outsiders" give the post draft process a new look/feel and address a very key issue that numerous people have voiced as reasons for not continuing.
 

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